Economic Speaker Upgrade for leased 2010 128i?

simoneves · 01-13-2010, 11:26 AM

Hey guys,

I've had my 2010 128i with base audio for about three weeks now, and while I love the car to bits, I am pretty disappointed with the stereo sound quality, as most people on this forum seem to be too.

I find it to play plenty loud enough for my taste, and the bass response is actually quite punchy and tuneful, but the midrange is really nasty and there's no sparkle to the treble, presumably because there are now no separate tweeters.

I can't really justify spending a lot of money to improve it, especially as the car is leased, but I am wondering if some kind of economic and non-invasive improvement is possible.

From reading other posts in this forum, I have concluded the following:

1. The speakers are the first weak link

2. The rear speakers are not worth touching, especially as the HU has some extreme EQ hardwired for them. I have had my system faded all the way forward for a while now, and I hardly ever have people in the back of the car (and even if I do, I don't play loud music!)

3. The underseat subs can sound better with a better amp (although perhaps this only applies to the 2008/2009 setup, not the allegedly different 2010 one)

4. Interior mirror/tweeter panels from 2008/2009 are available fairly cheaply.

From this, I suspect that the first step would be a front door speaker upgrade to run off the existing HU, in parallel (electrically and figuratively) with the existing under-seat subs.

I'm guessing that, due to the limited depth available, there isn't really much option for a dual-cone 4" door speaker (with integrated tweeter), which would be the least invasive change (and this is why the stock speakers are single-cone).

The next step, presumably, is to change out the mirror panels and use a component setup. I have seen mention of three candidates for speakers, as follows:

MB Quart
Diamond Audio
Morel Ovation

If somebody could recommend the exact model, I would be grateful, as MB Quart seem to have a wide variety of XXX 210 models, and I'd want to make sure there really were no depth or mounting issues, as it really has to be a drop-in replacement.

I'm guessing all these come with separate crossover boxes, which would have to be fitted inside the door panel somehow, but could be fed from the stock wiring. I'm also hoping that there is an easy cable route from the main section of the door into the tweeter area.

Do these crossovers include level controls to allow balancing against the stock subs, given that they are apparently wired in parallel?

It seems this would cost me in the region of $200-250, which is really all I want to spend, at least for now.

So... has anyone done JUST this, driven from the HU and keeping the existing subs, and how much of an improvement was it?

Also, if anyone could point me towards some instructions for removing the door panels (and the mirror panels) in a 2010, I would be most grateful.

Thanks in advance!

Technic · 01-13-2010, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simoneves

From this, I suspect that the first step would be a front door speaker upgrade to run off the existing HU, in parallel (electrically and figuratively) with the existing under-seat subs.

For a component set to work with your OEM HU and be connected in parallel with the underseat woofers you will need to keep in place the OEM capacitor that's inline with the OEM 4" speaker, or your OEM HU will be driving a 2 ohms load. The OEM HU is not stable for 2 ohms loads (the iDrive is, though), that's the purpose of the capacitor inline.

What all this mumbo-jumbo means to you? The improvement that you are looking for on the cheap will be in fact, very cheap regardless of how much money you spend. With perhaps just half of the 15W peak of power per channel and the signal already EQ, what your fancy component set will ever "see" is the same crapola that the OEM speakers were reproducing but the power further reduced by the crossover that you will be installing in that door...

Either save for some real improvement or just try for the heck of it and eventually add at least a 4-channel amp to split the underseat woofers from that component set.

simoneves · 01-15-2010, 08:38 PM

Right. That makes perfect sense. Thanks.

The other thing I'm still not clear on is whether there is a four-channel line-out from the HU, for feeding an amp, or if you have to use speaker-level converters, and if that line-out still has the baked EQ on it.

The bit which worries me most about doing the work myself is running cables along the car, if the best place for an amp is still in the trunk next to the battery. Obviously a power cable would have to run the other way even if the amp was somewhere else, but isn't that still simpler. Then again, maybe there's nowhere else an amp would fit, and I'd have to run new cables from the amp into the front doors and to the under-seat subs anyway, right?

The complexity entry point is quite high, isn't it...

mineo77 · 01-15-2010, 08:53 PM

check out my post: audio project complete

you will see what i did...my car sounds so good now, i find myself sitting in it just to listen to music!

JimD · 01-16-2010, 09:07 AM

If you do a search, there is a post that lists specific speakers that will fit. It was based on the 2008/2009 but should give you a pretty good idea. I think you will be able to fit nearly any 4 inch speaker and the depth has to be less than about 50mm (check the thread) but most are. You might be able to fit a 5 1/4 inch speaker but it seems to take some modifications of the interior of the door.

I do not know how cheap you want to go but I have purchased several sets of home speaker components from Parts Express. They post peoples comments so you get some idea of how the speakers work before you buy them. You could get new coaxial speakers for less than $50 a pair. I would probably go up some from those to some Pioneers - I have had good luck with Pioneer home speakers and the reviews look better. Even better would be some component speakers but they cost about twice as much as the coaxials and you would need to get the parts from BMW too. But I don't think the coaxials shooting out at about waist level will ever sound as good as separate tweeters high up. Decent coaxials should be a quite noticable upgrade from stock for $100 or less, and 4 inchers should be easy to install. And you could take them out easily when your lease expires if you want.

I also do not believe your subs are in parallel with your mid/uppers now. I believe your stock radio puts them on a spearate channel. If you put in component speakers to replace your current ones, or you use coaxial replacements, the tweeter and mid/lower will be in parallel but the tweeter will have a capacator to protect it from lower signals it cannot handle and to keep the impedance acceptable for the amp. Component speakers may actually have a better crossover, a capacator is apparently what BMW does but is very basic, which could involve only the addition of an inductor for the mid/low or could involve a more complex circuit to give a 12db/octave crossover (a simple capacator or capacator + inductor is 6 db/octave) or to do some frequency response shaping.

Jim

Technic · 01-16-2010, 10:44 AM

The Stereo OEM system has the front and the underseat woofers connected in parallel, with an inline cap in between in the case of the OEM HU. There is no cap with the iDrive.

simoneves · 01-16-2010, 11:38 AM

OK, thanks guys. I might try the speaker upgrade, but as Technic said, the crappy HU amps and the parallel connection of the subs will always be a limitation.

It sounds like if I'm going to do anything, I need to make the leap to at least:

* Component speakers in the doors (with replacement mirror panels)
* Four-channel amp from HU front outs to drive the doors and the original subs
* All new wiring for the above

...with the option of getting better subs later (although I'm sure the originals are fine for my sort of listening tendencies, especially with a better amp)...

...and leave the back speakers (which are TERRIBLE, or at least terribly EQ'd) driven from the HU and fade them out most of the time. I had to laugh when I looked closely and could see the crappy single-cone rear drivers through the grille, and the hole where the tweeter should be! Bloody cheapskates!

Good job the rest of the car is so good. Love it, love it, love it.

Technic · 01-16-2010, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simoneves

OK, thanks guys. I might try the speaker upgrade, but as Technic said, the crappy HU amps and the parallel connection of the subs will always be a limitation.

It sounds like if I'm going to do anything, I need to make the leap to at least:

* Component speakers in the doors (with replacement mirror panels)
* Four-channel amp from HU front outs to drive the doors and the original subs
* All new wiring for the above

...with the option of getting better subs later (although I'm sure the originals are fine for my sort of listening tendencies, especially with a better amp)...

...and leave the back speakers (which are TERRIBLE, or at least terribly EQ'd) driven from the HU and fade them out most of the time. I had to laugh when I looked closely and could see the crappy single-cone rear drivers through the grille, and the hole where the tweeter should be! Bloody cheapskates!

Good job the rest of the car is so good. Love it, love it, love it.

If you can find the cap then you can still use the OEM wiring inside the doors and only lay out new wiring to the underseat woofers.

There's an Alpine OEM amp/front Logic7 OEM speakers available in Europe that could be used in the USA and possibly not affect your leasing contract (all parts are OEM and could be installed by a dealer). This kit is not available yet in the USA but could be ordered thru seller RoverActive in eBay for $549.95:

JimD · 01-16-2010, 01:34 PM

Technic,

You are right, I should have looked at the attached. I had it on my hard drive, I was just lazy and worked from memory. Only 4 channels of output with the base system.

I still think, however, that it might be worth trying a simple coaxial speaker upgrade. If you think you need component speakers after trying coaxials, you could always put the coaxials in the rear. But I also think the component speakers will sound better, I just wonder how much. I am not real thrilled with my stock speakers in my 2009 (so it's the mid level system). They have separate tweeters but are still noticably lacking if you check frequency response. They sound OK, however, to my non critical ear.

Jim

plasar · 01-16-2010, 03:15 PM

Convenience link to Mineo77's project thread:

Audio project complete! REVIEW MusicarNW Portland,OR

Great info sharing Mineo, thanks a ton!

01-13-2010, 11:26 AM	#1
simoneves First Lieutenant 88 Rep 300 Posts Drives: '16 228i DSB/THP/6MT Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: San Rafael, CA, USA iTrader: (1)	Economic Speaker Upgrade for leased 2010 128i? Hey guys, I've had my 2010 128i with base audio for about three weeks now, and while I love the car to bits, I am pretty disappointed with the stereo sound quality, as most people on this forum seem to be too. I find it to play plenty loud enough for my taste, and the bass response is actually quite punchy and tuneful, but the midrange is really nasty and there's no sparkle to the treble, presumably because there are now no separate tweeters. I can't really justify spending a lot of money to improve it, especially as the car is leased, but I am wondering if some kind of economic and non-invasive improvement is possible. From reading other posts in this forum, I have concluded the following: 1. The speakers are the first weak link 2. The rear speakers are not worth touching, especially as the HU has some extreme EQ hardwired for them. I have had my system faded all the way forward for a while now, and I hardly ever have people in the back of the car (and even if I do, I don't play loud music!) 3. The underseat subs can sound better with a better amp (although perhaps this only applies to the 2008/2009 setup, not the allegedly different 2010 one) 4. Interior mirror/tweeter panels from 2008/2009 are available fairly cheaply. From this, I suspect that the first step would be a front door speaker upgrade to run off the existing HU, in parallel (electrically and figuratively) with the existing under-seat subs. I'm guessing that, due to the limited depth available, there isn't really much option for a dual-cone 4" door speaker (with integrated tweeter), which would be the least invasive change (and this is why the stock speakers are single-cone). The next step, presumably, is to change out the mirror panels and use a component setup. I have seen mention of three candidates for speakers, as follows: MB Quart Diamond Audio Morel Ovation If somebody could recommend the exact model, I would be grateful, as MB Quart seem to have a wide variety of XXX 210 models, and I'd want to make sure there really were no depth or mounting issues, as it really has to be a drop-in replacement. I'm guessing all these come with separate crossover boxes, which would have to be fitted inside the door panel somehow, but could be fed from the stock wiring. I'm also hoping that there is an easy cable route from the main section of the door into the tweeter area. Do these crossovers include level controls to allow balancing against the stock subs, given that they are apparently wired in parallel? It seems this would cost me in the region of $200-250, which is really all I want to spend, at least for now. So... has anyone done JUST this, driven from the HU and keeping the existing subs, and how much of an improvement was it? Also, if anyone could point me towards some instructions for removing the door panels (and the mirror panels) in a 2010, I would be most grateful. Thanks in advance!
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01-15-2010, 08:38 PM	#3
simoneves First Lieutenant 88 Rep 300 Posts Drives: '16 228i DSB/THP/6MT Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: San Rafael, CA, USA iTrader: (1)	Right. That makes perfect sense. Thanks. The other thing I'm still not clear on is whether there is a four-channel line-out from the HU, for feeding an amp, or if you have to use speaker-level converters, and if that line-out still has the baked EQ on it. The bit which worries me most about doing the work myself is running cables along the car, if the best place for an amp is still in the trunk next to the battery. Obviously a power cable would have to run the other way even if the amp was somewhere else, but isn't that still simpler. Then again, maybe there's nowhere else an amp would fit, and I'd have to run new cables from the amp into the front doors and to the under-seat subs anyway, right? The complexity entry point is quite high, isn't it...
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01-15-2010, 08:53 PM	#4
mineo77 Lieutenant Colonel 124 Rep 1,925 Posts Drives: 2010 135i,1989 PRO3,2001 530i Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Portland,OR iTrader: (2) Garage List 2010 135i coupe [7.56]	check out my post: audio project complete you will see what i did...my car sounds so good now, i find myself sitting in it just to listen to music! __________________ 135i coupe  6MT  TiAg  ///M sport http://www.rhominnovations.com www.musicarNW.com www.unitedBMWonline.com
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01-16-2010, 09:07 AM	#5
JimD Brigadier General 369 Rep 3,547 Posts Drives: 128i convertible Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Lexington, SC iTrader: (0)	If you do a search, there is a post that lists specific speakers that will fit. It was based on the 2008/2009 but should give you a pretty good idea. I think you will be able to fit nearly any 4 inch speaker and the depth has to be less than about 50mm (check the thread) but most are. You might be able to fit a 5 1/4 inch speaker but it seems to take some modifications of the interior of the door. I do not know how cheap you want to go but I have purchased several sets of home speaker components from Parts Express. They post peoples comments so you get some idea of how the speakers work before you buy them. You could get new coaxial speakers for less than $50 a pair. I would probably go up some from those to some Pioneers - I have had good luck with Pioneer home speakers and the reviews look better. Even better would be some component speakers but they cost about twice as much as the coaxials and you would need to get the parts from BMW too. But I don't think the coaxials shooting out at about waist level will ever sound as good as separate tweeters high up. Decent coaxials should be a quite noticable upgrade from stock for $100 or less, and 4 inchers should be easy to install. And you could take them out easily when your lease expires if you want. I also do not believe your subs are in parallel with your mid/uppers now. I believe your stock radio puts them on a spearate channel. If you put in component speakers to replace your current ones, or you use coaxial replacements, the tweeter and mid/lower will be in parallel but the tweeter will have a capacator to protect it from lower signals it cannot handle and to keep the impedance acceptable for the amp. Component speakers may actually have a better crossover, a capacator is apparently what BMW does but is very basic, which could involve only the addition of an inductor for the mid/low or could involve a more complex circuit to give a 12db/octave crossover (a simple capacator or capacator + inductor is 6 db/octave) or to do some frequency response shaping. Jim __________________ 128i Convertible, MT, Alpine White, Black Top, Taupe Leatherette, Walnut, Sport Ordered 5/22/09, Completed 6/4/09, At Port 6/9/09, On the Georgia Highway 6/13/09, Ship Arrived Charleston 6/24/09 at 10pm, PCD 7/21/09
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01-16-2010, 10:44 AM	#6
Technic Lieutenant General 2307 Rep 13,011 Posts Drives: 2021 i3S, 2024 i4 M50 Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Florida iTrader: (18)	The Stereo OEM system has the front and the underseat woofers connected in parallel, with an inline cap in between in the case of the OEM HU. There is no cap with the iDrive.
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01-16-2010, 11:38 AM	#7
simoneves First Lieutenant 88 Rep 300 Posts Drives: '16 228i DSB/THP/6MT Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: San Rafael, CA, USA iTrader: (1)	OK, thanks guys. I might try the speaker upgrade, but as Technic said, the crappy HU amps and the parallel connection of the subs will always be a limitation. It sounds like if I'm going to do anything, I need to make the leap to at least: * Component speakers in the doors (with replacement mirror panels) * Four-channel amp from HU front outs to drive the doors and the original subs * All new wiring for the above ...with the option of getting better subs later (although I'm sure the originals are fine for my sort of listening tendencies, especially with a better amp)... ...and leave the back speakers (which are TERRIBLE, or at least terribly EQ'd) driven from the HU and fade them out most of the time. I had to laugh when I looked closely and could see the crappy single-cone rear drivers through the grille, and the hole where the tweeter should be! Bloody cheapskates! Good job the rest of the car is so good. Love it, love it, love it.
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01-16-2010, 03:15 PM	#10
plasar plasar 24 Rep 385 Posts Drives: M3 Vert Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Portland, OR iTrader: (0) Garage List 2008 BMW M3 Conv [0.00]	Convenience link to Mineo77's project thread: Audio project complete! REVIEW MusicarNW Portland,OR Great info sharing Mineo, thanks a ton!
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