[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by HudsonHornett

I genuinely laughed my head off!

I mean I really do wonder how you go onto a forum for BMW fans and literally one of the best cars that BMW have produced for decades gets absolutely slammed for not being a Porsche or somehow "not enough".

This opinion appears to be based almost exclusively on the views of UK road testers that tried the car in both sub-optimal spec and conditions - utterly bizarre!

My dear friend

In the "idiot realm", nothing is ever bizarre - Next thing you'll be telling me is that pigs don't fly; what sorcery be that I asks ya

🤪🤪

[PLF69]

Originally Posted by MadBimmeRad

My dear friend

In the "idiot realm", nothing is ever bizarre - Next thing you'll be telling me ii that pigs don't fly; what sorcery be that I asks ya

🤪🤪

In today's reality ppl actually believe in sorcery and that Hogwarts is a real place

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by PLF69

In today's reality ppl actually believe in sorcery and that hogwary is a real place

I'm glad I've got you and Hudson in my life to keep it real

There is a good reason why there are so few billionaires out there; because there are far too many .... [You choose the words] - the words numb and nuts come to my mind - I wonder how we can combine those words to signify a specific group of extraordinary folks

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by MadBimmeRad

I'm glad I've got you and Hudson in my life to keep it real

There is a good reason why there are so few billionaires; because there are far too many .... [You choose the words] - the words numb and nuts come to my mind - I wonder how we can combine those words to signify a specific group of extraordinary folks

[HudsonHornett]

I was thinking about this the other day - how often do I base my opinion on the experience of others? And I think it's fair to say where I have limited knowledge or experience, I do value the knowledge of experts, for example doctors, lawyers or accountants.

But where I do have experience, for example driving, skiing or my actual job, I have to say that I absolutely rely on my own experience, which led me to an interesting conclusion - those who base their opinion on a car that they haven't driven, on a review from an experienced third party probably have limited knowledge and experience of cars / driving.

[ScullyD]

Originally Posted by HudsonHornett

I genuinely laughed my head off!

I mean I really do wonder how you go onto a forum for BMW fans and literally one of the best cars that BMW have produced for decades gets absolutely slammed for not being a Porsche or somehow "not enough".

This opinion appears to be based almost exclusively on the views of UK road testers that tried the car in both sub-optimal spec and conditions - utterly bizarre!

Bimmerpost post is just Rennlist for people who can’t afford Porsches. And everyone who buys a BMW just really wants the equivalent Porsche.

Didn’t you get the memo on this?

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

Bimmerpost post is just Rennlist for people who can’t afford Porsches.

[HudsonHornett]

I kinda feel that if I'm able to get the M4 CSL (last few hurdles shortly), then it'll be a leap on from a Porsche. All of the Porsches I've either owned or driven have been great to drive especially when flat out on track, but I get the feeling that the CSL will test me more as a driver - I just can't wait to try it out on track!

[Penguino]

Originally Posted by PLF69

Maybe 2 years+ of engineering and testing on the Nurburgring by one of the oldest mutilinational car company to hone the suspension/chassis dynamics can't be easily replicated

Sure. But BMW tests all their vehicles in the ring. And can’t the same be said about the exhaust? Engine tuning? Lighter wheels and better brakes? A $500 tune brings this engine into another league and has proven to be extremely reliable. There are much better wheels out there. Tires are available by Michelin. Carbon seats and ceramic brakes are OEM. Are you saying it is impossible to balance the suspension and no one can replicate the perfection of a CSL?

Was not aware the CSL used a reinforced chassis. That’s definitely a differentiation.

[PLF69]

Originally Posted by Penguino

Sure. But BMW tests all their vehicles in the ring. And can’t the same be said about the exhaust? Engine tuning? Lighter wheels and better brakes? A $500 tune brings this engine into another league and has proven to be extremely reliable. There are much better wheels out there. Tires are available by Michelin. Carbon seats and ceramic brakes are OEM. Are you saying it is impossible to balance the suspension and no one can replicate the perfection of a CSL?

Was not aware the CSL used a reinforced chassis. That’s definitely a differentiation.

Yes it will be hard to replicate the bespoke shocks, springs, bushings, sway bars and the tuning that was developed for them to work in harmony.

I'll give it to you, you can buy the CSL underhood brace but I doubt any aftermarket supplier has done the same testing that BMW did.

I am not blindlessely defending the CSL, just saying that like the CS models of the past what you get is a finely tuned package delivered with OEM level of quality and cohesion. Is it a perfect car ? No, but I will continue to argue when I see ppl saying they can do the same with some "tuning" parts. If one is building a track car and is being guided by a real racing team that experiment with real applications then I'm all ears.

[Penguino]

Originally Posted by PLF69

Yes it will be hard to replicate the bespoke shocks, springs, bushings, sway bars and the tuning that was developed for them wo work in harmony.

I'll give it to you, you can buy the CSL underhood brace but I doubt any aftermarket supplier has done the same testing that BMW did.

My point is not that you can build a CSL from your garage and be better than BMWs.

My main point is a base M4 can be transformed very closed to a CSL and arguably faster (sure,let’s assume the suspension is irreplicatable) but a base 911 cannot be transformed to a GT3.

My main point was the CSL to GT3 comparison is invalid.

[Penguino]

Originally Posted by robopp

I assume that last sentence misspelled can’t, right?
You can’t take a base 911 and convert it into a GT3.

Correct.

[PLF69]

Originally Posted by Penguino

My point is not that you can build a CSL from your garage and be better than BMWs.

My main point is a base M4 can be transformed very closed to a CSL and arguably faster (sure,let’s assume the suspension is irreplicatable) but a base 911 cannot be transformed to a GT3.

My main point was the CSL to GT3 comparison is invalid.

I understand better what you wanted to say, I admit appart from the suspension tuning you could theoricaly get close starting with a normal M4.

[Penguino]

Originally Posted by PLF69

I understand better what you wanted to say, I admit appart from the suspension tuning you could theoricaly get close starting with a normal M4.

I could have stated it better for sure

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by PLF69

I understand better what you wanted to say, I admit apart from the suspension tuning you could theoretically get close starting with a normal M4.

Yeah, I agree but the suspension tuning would be the thing that makes the car as good as it is - a good chassis really differentiates the drive of any car.

Also, the CSL comes like it is directly from the manufacturer, whereas tuning a base M4 to be a CSL would be an expensive enterprise. CF hood and trunk would be massively expensive to replicate, let alone the bespoke suspension componentry and tuning. And CC brakes are a £7k option, the wheels are bespoke (and expensive) as are the tyres (specific BMW compound). And after all that, guess what? You still don't own an M4 CSL.

[Higgs Boson]

Originally Posted by Penguino

My point is not that you can build a CSL from your garage and be better than BMWs.

My main point is a base M4 can be transformed very closed to a CSL and arguably faster (sure,let’s assume the suspension is irreplicatable) but a base 911 cannot be transformed to a GT3.

My main point was the CSL to GT3 comparison is invalid.

you can mod a 911 to run the same lap times as a GT3 but it's still not a GT3.

you can mod an M4 to run the same lap times as a CSL but still not a CSL.

the "modding argument" is and always has been moot. You can mod a CSL and a GT3 too.

The difference is the modded cars are always compromised, unintended fitment issues, unintended noises, lack of warranty, extra smells, whatever. Infinite drawbacks.

I have modified so many cars I can't even remember them all. Owned around 170 cars, many 1000 rwhp cars, etc. For many years I even tuned/recalibrated other people's cars and trucks. Many many dollars gone, never added much if anything to resale value.

911 150k
add 30k mods
180k
sell for 130k
loss 50k

GT3 200k
sell for 250k
make 50k

M4/CSL same thing right now just to a smaller degree. I can sell my CSL right now and make 30-40k and haven't wasted a dime on intakes/exhausts/tunes/etc.

[geko29]

Originally Posted by HudsonHornett

Also, the CSL comes like it is directly from the manufacturer, whereas tuning a base M4 to be a CSL would be an expensive enterprise. CF hood and trunk would be massively expensive to replicate, let alone the bespoke suspension componentry and tuning. And CC brakes are a £7k option, the wheels are bespoke (and expensive) as are the tyres (specific BMW compound). And after all that, guess what? You still don't own an M4 CSL.

Agree with all but the bit in bold. The CSL wheels in matte black are among the cheapest forged wheels you can buy right now--almost $1000 US cheaper than the current group buy (with maximum discount) for Apex Forged Sprint, for example. I just bought a set for my summers, and the 825M will flip to winter duty.

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by geko29

Agree with all but the bit in bold. The CSL wheels in matte black are among the cheapest forged wheels you can buy right now. I just bought a set for my summers, and the 825M will flip to winter duty.

Interesting - didn't know that. I thought they were about £5k?

[geko29]

Originally Posted by HudsonHornett

Interesting - didn't know that. I thought they were about £5k?

The set that I just ordered were $2488 US, $2643 with shipping. The Gold Bronze from the CS would have been $4600 before shipping.

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by geko29

The set that I just ordered were $2488 US, $2643 with shipping. The Gold Bronze from the CS would have been $4600 before shipping.

That's good to know - so if I wanted a set with winter tyres on it, wouldn't cost a fortune!

[jpdchicago]

Originally Posted by geko29

Agree with all but the bit in bold. The CSL wheels in matte black are among the cheapest forged wheels you can buy right now—almost $1000 US cheaper than the current group buy (with maximum discount) for Apex Forged Sprint, for example. I just bought a set for my summers, and the 825M will flip to winter duty.

I agree with that. I was surprised how (relatively) affordable they were. Did the reverse and got a set with PS A/S 4 to use on the CSL right now. The Cup 2 Rs that came with the car are in storage on the original rims until May..
Cup 2 Rs not ideal right now in the Midwest.

[gs1403]

Originally Posted by Higgs Boson

you can mod a 911 to run the same lap times as a GT3 but it's still not a GT3.

you can mod an M4 to run the same lap times as a CSL but still not a CSL.

the "modding argument" is and always has been moot. You can mod a CSL and a GT3 too.

The difference is the modded cars are always compromised, unintended fitment issues, unintended noises, lack of warranty, extra smells, whatever. Infinite drawbacks.

I have modified so many cars I can't even remember them all. Owned around 170 cars, many 1000 rwhp cars, etc. For many years I even tuned/recalibrated other people's cars and trucks. Many many dollars gone, never added much if anything to resale value.

911 150k
add 30k mods
180k
sell for 130k
loss 50k

GT3 200k
sell for 250k
make 50k

M4/CSL same thing right now just to a smaller degree. I can sell my CSL right now and make 30-40k and haven't wasted a dime on intakes/exhausts/tunes/etc.

This 100%. It's amusing when people make the argument that modding will give them the equivalent of the higher output car from the factory. Modding is fun, don't get me wrong. But you're kidding yourself if you think most of these aftermarket companies put in the r&d hours, $$$, product testing and refinement as the OEMs do. Not to mention the bag of problems that tend to come with modding a car.