[gs1403]

Originally Posted by kjx

The differences in performance and safety are even more pronounced when you are not a professional race car driver. Not less. And on the road. At less than 60 mph.

Just the added safety envelope of a average person being less likely to total a 500+ HP car due to oversteer is good enough justification for it. The fact that you don't give up any of the driving feel vs RWD until you almost screw up is the cherry on top.

Sure, M3/4s have been RWD for decades but the cars have not produced this much power for that duration of time. The F8X generation was already too late to the game - I know more people who totaled their F8X due to oversteer with full traction control on at less than 60 mph than people who still own their F8X.

Of course, people can buy the RWD in auto form. Because some people make emotional decisions even when all the logic in the world points the other way. Ever since AWD came out, none of the customer order or dealer order cars I've seen at the local dealerships have been RWD (other than the occasional RWD manual). It shouldn't even be a debate at this point - if someone isn't sure of what to get the answer is always AWD.

Nobody can feel the weight over the front axles (here or any of the big YouTube reviewers / Car mags) and $4100 is the best bang for the buck "option' in this generation. Arguing against that at this point is at par with arguing that the earth is actually flat. But flat earthers are free to believe whatever they want, and so are the handful of the RWD-only devotees. The only real shame is if someone didn't have a firm understanding of AWD in G8Xs and opted out of it due to ignorance. I say this as a former RWD BMW owner who once nearly wrecked his own car due to unintended oversteer at less than 60 mph with traction on. And that was a whole 200 HP less than the G8X.

You missed the entire point of my post. I get it. X-drive better. I literally just don't care enough to pay the premium. I've never come even remotely close to losing control of my F82, or any other F8X or RWD G82 I've driven on the thousands of miles of canyon and backroads driving I've done, like ever. I don't want an AWD G82. I don't need an AWD G82. I have two other cars for AWD duty. I want a purely RWD car for my fun car. The $4,100 price savings and 100lb are just bonuses in my books. That's my prerogative, and I'm glad BMW offered me that choice. So you do you, I'll do me.

[Mark Kez]

I’ve lived in cold, snowy parts of the world seemingly my whole life! Minnesota, Iceland and now Syracuse NY. I’d always wanted a Corvette or an M car, but with rear wheel drive they weren’t a viable option. X drive G83 came out and I jumped on it like a hungry dog on a bone!! No brainer for me.

[MaxechosM3]

I went awd thinking I'd just daily mine. Ended up buying an suv daily after 2 weeks. lol but if I was to do it again I'd go manual rwd for the engagement.

[G MONEY]

Originally Posted by MaxechosM3

I went awd thinking I'd just daily mine. Ended up buying an suv daily after 2 weeks. lol but if I was to do it again I'd go manual rwd for the engagement.

Nothing like shifting that slop manual we have enjoyed forever in these M cars.😡😉🤣Boggles my mind they have NEVER been able to improve the manuals in these cars. Kinda Bullshit to be honest

[JDUNITNOW]

Originally Posted by kjx

The differences in performance and safety are even more pronounced when you are not a professional race car driver. Not less. And on the road. At less than 60 mph.

Just the added safety envelope of a average person being less likely to total a 500+ HP car due to oversteer is good enough justification for it. The fact that you don't give up any of the driving feel vs RWD until you almost screw up is the cherry on top.

Sure, M3/4s have been RWD for decades but the cars have not produced this much power for that duration of time. The F8X generation was already too late to the game - I know more people who totaled their F8X due to oversteer with full traction control on at less than 60 mph than people who still own their F8X.

Of course, people can buy the RWD in auto form. Because some people make emotional decisions even when all the logic in the world points the other way. Ever since AWD came out, none of the customer order or dealer order cars I've seen at the local dealerships have been RWD (other than the occasional RWD manual). It shouldn't even be a debate at this point - if someone isn't sure of what to get the answer is always AWD.

Nobody can feel the weight over the front axles (here or any of the big YouTube reviewers / Car mags) and $4100 is the best bang for the buck "option' in this generation. Arguing against that at this point is at par with arguing that the earth is actually flat. But flat earthers are free to believe whatever they want, and so are the handful of the RWD-only devotees. The only real shame is if someone didn't have a firm [...]

I am curious how did you oversteer at that low of a speed with traction on? Were you in inclement weather? I'm not being a jack ass like others can be, I'm really curious. Were you going hot in a turn or sharp curve?

[Lakeside]

I've been driving a RWD vehicle for the past 20 years, so I would have gone RWD for G80 in a heartbeat. Reasons.. $4100 I could save or spend on options, maintenance, one less thing to break, easier tire selection.

But... my wife pushed me to place the order and AWD was one of her requirements (along with skipping 6MT). Of course she soft-banned some color choices and options with eyerolls.

[MaxechosM3]

Originally Posted by G MONEY

Nothing like shifting that slop manual we have enjoyed forever in these M cars.😡😉🤣Boggles my mind they have NEVER been able to improve the manuals in these cars. Kinda Bullshit to be honest

Funny you say that. This is my first Bmw so I've never driven a manual one.

[G MONEY]

Originally Posted by MaxechosM3

Funny you say that. This is my first Bmw so I've never driven a manual one.

Lucky you. Lol

[2011ninja]

Originally Posted by gs1403

Yeah because everybody makes car-buying decisions based on 1-2 second differences in lap times that are unachievable to less than 99.99% of G8X owners.

M3/4s have been RWD only for 30+ years and the first year they come out with an AWD version, people act like it's the only way to have the car. Nobody's arguing the AWD doesn't outperform the RWD. We get it. It's faster. It's more practical. Whatever. I just don't care enough about having the AWD to pay $4,100 extra to have 100lbs more weight at the front axles. And I'm glad BMW gave the privilege of making that choice.

+1

There should be algorithms on threads and when someone has a "Mic Drop" post the thread should auto lock…

[Sopiarz3]

RWD for me because multiple reasons.

Price premium of $4100 is not worth it to me. If it was cheaper I would consider it.

Open front differential with the chain driving the power to the front axel. If i were to get a car with AWD it's not the configuration i would spec. I'm sure the engineers did a great job making it work as all the reviews and poster in this thread point out.

Most of the power goes to the rear wheels anyway, even more so than other BMW models and the basic 3 series. So is it more of a benefit than the RWD model in adverse conditions, yes, but I don't think it's comparable to some other AWD cars.

People have been driving RWD cars for decades and have managed fine and without all the fancy modern gizmos. This is a modern car with way more mechanical grip then other cars and even more than the F80 series.

2 seconds difference on the Nürburgring is almost nothing and the faster lap times on standard length road courses don't mean much. If most people got to drive both back to back their lap times would probably be close to each other. Experience counts on race tracks more than equipment as I've learned. There is some mental limit for a lot of people unless you get more seat time.

RWD models have a front axle camber of -1°40'. AWD models have a front axle camber of -1°30'. I have no idea if you can adjust the camber of the AWD to match.

Possibility of more maintenance costs.

Tires costs

Lower fuel economy

[BMWRacer523]

Originally Posted by G MONEY

Lucky you. Lol

LOL. They aren't that bad. I have AWD so auto but have had manual in all my previous M3s. Not superb like Porsche by any means but not terrible either.

[Stan Dee]

Have now lived through 4 x seasons with RWD in rainy UK and no regrets. Too many comparisons to F8X platform which handles very differently. I am also content that my non-performance RWD version is 2 seconds slower around the Nurburgring (approx 0.15 secs per mile). Guess I can live with this whilst saving a bit of money at the same time.

[kjx]

Originally Posted by gs1403

You missed the entire point of my post. I get it. X-drive better. I literally just don't care enough to pay the premium. I've never come even remotely close to losing control of my F82, or any other F8X or RWD G82 I've driven on the thousands of miles of canyon and backroads driving I've done, like ever. I don't want an AWD G82. I don't need an AWD G82. I have two other cars for AWD duty. I want a purely RWD car for my fun car. The $4,100 price savings and 100lb are just bonuses in my books. That's my prerogative, and I'm glad BMW offered me that choice. So you do you, I'll do me.

I totally get that it's your choice and that's what truly works for you. But there should be a recognition that that's not the case for the vast majority of current and potential owners.

What is ideally avoided is not-yet-aware people actually thinking they are compromising on actual drive feel or that they actually can sense any perceptible negative difference except over some 130-140 mph (I forget what it was). Especially given an AWD car in RWD mode is a purely RWD car. And M5 and upwards are not even offered with pure RWD.

[Ezio]

I daily drove a RWD M3 for years and even with winter tires in the snow. It got around perfectly fine. But I would go AWD for the current generation. Better snow traction and can hook up way better if you mod it.

[kjx]

Originally Posted by JDUNITNOW

I am curious how did you oversteer at that low of a speed with traction on? Were you in inclement weather? I'm not being a jack ass like others can be, I'm really curious. Were you going hot in a turn or sharp curve?

It was a sweeping highway on-ramp going uphill. The road was damp but not really wet, and it was a cold day. I was progressively increasing my speed approaching the highway merge point when, as I was close to sixty, the rear started sliding slowly pointing me to the wall. I counter-steered with constant throttle but due to not finessing it properly and maybe a little bit of panic creeping in staring at the wall, it resulted in nothing happening initially and then a snap oversteer in the other direction.

For a second or two I was nearly perpendicular to the direction of travel. Reverse counter-steered as soon as I realized I'd overdone it, and the car flipped back to the correct direction and came to a stop barely before the driver side wheels would have left the road (car was fully on the shoulder opposite the wall).

Thankfully nothing happened. I've done M track days and all that but these are things you still don't practice enough in a controlled environment (and most M car buyers won't; not for a lack of want/desire but… life demands on time).

[JDUNITNOW]

Originally Posted by kjx

It was a sweeping highway on-ramp going uphill. The road was damp but not really wet, and it was a cold day. I was progressively increasing my speed approaching the highway merge point when, as I was close to sixty, the rear started sliding slowly pointing me to the wall. I counter-steered with constant throttle but due to not finessing it properly and maybe a little bit of panic creeping in staring at the wall, it resulted in nothing happening initially and then a snap oversteer in the other direction.

For a second or two I was nearly perpendicular to the direction of travel. Reverse counter-steered as soon as I realized I'd overdone it, and the car flipped back to the correct direction and came to a stop barely before the driver side wheels would have left the road (car was fully on the shoulder opposite the wall).

Thankfully nothing happened. I've done M track days and all that but these are things you still don't practice enough in a controlled environment (and most M car buyers won't; not for a lack of want/desire but… life demands on time).

Thanks for the explanation, a lot of times we don't hear about instances like this and people assume they have control and don't. I have a RWD and don't take it for granted but that that one time.

[bmwdrive]

Originally Posted by kjx

It was a sweeping highway on-ramp going uphill. The road was damp but not really wet, and it was a cold day. I was progressively increasing my speed approaching the highway merge point when, as I was close to sixty, the rear started sliding slowly pointing me to the wall. I counter-steered with constant throttle but due to not finessing it properly and maybe a little bit of panic creeping in staring at the wall, it resulted in nothing happening initially and then a snap oversteer in the other direction.

For a second or two I was nearly perpendicular to the direction of travel. Reverse counter-steered as soon as I realized I'd overdone it, and the car flipped back to the correct direction and came to a stop barely before the driver side wheels would have left the road (car was fully on the shoulder opposite the wall).

Thankfully nothing happened. I've done M track days and all that but these are things you still don't practice enough in a controlled environment (and most M car buyers won't; not for a lack of want/desire but… life demands on time).

This would be my only reason for xDrive. I had a RWD e90 for 10+ years and never had an issue. But will it be the same with a G80 that has 2x the power? I'm not sure. 99.9% of the time it's probably fine. That 0.01% can be scary though.

[Sopiarz3]

from BMWs Head of Driving Dynamics Systems "torque split is a fully variable distribution at all times in 4WD and 4WD Sport mode. In comparison, 4WD Sport mode allows for more rear wheel slip than 4WD mode before sending more power to the front wheels.
To improve steering behaviour and cornering power of the front axle, we especially lower the front axle torque while cornering."

[Bumpinjeep]

RWD = 6 Speed Manual

/Thread

[ominousM4]

Xdrive puts the G82 into supercar performance territory, so no-brainer for me or I would have kept my C8.

[TJR_///M3]

Originally Posted by kjx

If the car protects you from landing in the ditch when you're extracting the most out of it, it is both a performance feature and a safety feature.

My last 435i GC (RWD) with all traction nannies on once tried to put me into the wall on curving highway on ramp due to oversteer from losing traction in the rear. Counter-steer and reverse counter steer after that saved it. But it was a seat of the pants thing. And that was just a 300 HP car with wide track handling package wheels/tires at the rear.

That I can slide the M4 with all nannies on and then have the front end kick in if the car detects it's not doing what I'm indicating with my steering and throttle inputs means I'm more protected.

Safety and performance envelopes are not unrelated things.

This is a classic crash (or near crash) mode.
TC will help by reducing or eliminating the torque input that initially unsticks the rear tires and would continue to push the rear wide if the torque were not reduced. DSC will then help true up the car, but… many drivers instinctively apply the opposite lock and help to correct the initial slide, but fail to get the lock off quickly enough. This is particularly true with DSC that will amplify the correction. The result is that the car is now pointing ‘straight’ but has lock on in the opposite direction to the initial turn with a lot of angular momentum that the DSC can’t mitigate. The car then spins out rotating in the reverse direction to the original turn (or, if lucky, just results in an ugly ‘tank-slapper’ while the driver chases the slides in a series of out of phase corrections).
You did well to catch it and stay out of the wall…
The secret is to try and anticipate the initial slide ending and get the opposite lock off as fast as possible. For a lot of drivers, however, the initial slide tenses them up (firmer grip on the wheel, tight shoulders) that slows removal of the lock.
Getting back on topic, AWD will help reduce the chances of the initial oversteer slide, but once the torque is taken away by TC, it makes no difference.
As for AWD vs. RWD, I’ll just echo the comment that it’s good that BMW offers us both and long may it stay that way.

[kjx]

Originally Posted by TJR_///M3

This is a classic crash (or near crash) mode.
TC will help by reducing or eliminating the torque input that initially unsticks the rear tires and would continue to push the rear wide if the torque were not reduced. DSC will then help true up the car, but… many drivers instinctively apply the opposite lock and help to correct the initial slide, but fail to get the lock off quickly enough. This is particularly true with DSC that will amplify the correction. The result is that the car is now pointing 'straight' but has lock on in the opposite direction to the initial turn with a lot of angular momentum that the DSC can't mitigate. The car then spins out rotating in the reverse direction to the original turn (or, if lucky, just results in an ugly 'tank-slapper' while the driver chases the slides in a series of out of phase corrections).
You did well to catch it and stay out of the wall…
The secret is to try and anticipate the initial slide ending and get the opposite lock off as fast as possible. For a lot of drivers, however, the initial slide tenses them up (firmer grip on the wheel, tight shoulders) that slows removal of the lock.
Getting back on topic, AWD will help reduce the chances of the initial oversteer slide, but once the torque is taken away by TC, it makes no difference.
As for AWD vs. RWD, I'll just echo the comment that it's good that BMW offers us both and long may it stay that way.

Agreed on the analysis. Each of us that like to exercise the capabilities of the cars we have should seriously look at continued driver training (HPDE classes).