[silvermanor]

Wanted to reach out to the big brains on this board for some advice.

Car is an M3 Comp Xdrive.

My usage:

Currently run the stock staggered setup in summer. Also do 5 non-competitive lapping days each summer.

Have about 300 laps or 600 miles on track in this car.

Am an intermediate skill level driver (not trying to set lap records).

Track time is all on star PS4S and Pzero. Got 4 sessions out of my Pzeros and they wore really nicely. Switched to PS4s and they are pretty chewed up after a single session as I am getting much faster.

I guess it's time to finally bite the bullet and address this. Tires are overheating, overstressed and the weight of the car is too much.

Thinking about this setup:

827m square 19" 9.5" which I can get for less money than Apex wheels. Would just use 4 front 827m wheels.

AD09 or RS4 tires. Prefer AD09 because I want to be able to rotate them on 4 corners.

Questions:

Are the AD09s going to wear as good as the RS4? I only have experience with RS4 and note them as a good endurance tire.

Are either of these really going to last materially longer than the PS4S given the TW200 tires are more resistant to heat?

Have considered Millway street camber plates but I really don't want to be doing endless adjustments and alignments.

Is doing this setup and just rotating these tires after every track day a rational way to avoid getting them? I would be putting the stock PS4S and staggered setup back on after each track day.

Is this setup going to ruin the feel of the car on track? Do the rears really need to be 285? Anyone have an experience running a 275 square setup with x drive on track?

Do I really need rear spacers if I do this setup? Is 12mm correct? Do I need longer bolts? I run the BMW 275 35 19 square setup in winter but know the rear wheels are 10" and the fronts are 9.5".

Is any of this rational? I'm trying the impossible of trying to make this a hybrid track street car and want to address the tire wear issue while also maintaining the street ability of the car which I drive to the office year round as well.

Thanks!

[RM73]

I've got a similar use case to yours, and I went in a pretty similar route to what you're suggesting. I have no experience with the RS4s, but I can compare the PS4S to the AD09 and the difference is night and day in track use, in grip, heat management and also wear.

Differences in my setup are the following:
- I went square 285/35/19 on a 10.5" wheel - the stock rears are 10.5", not 10". I'm not sure what is the offset of the 827m on 9.5", you'll probably not need such a big spacer, but you'll definitely need a spacer, at least to keep the stock wheel geometry and track width.

- Camber plates on the front with camber set to -3.2º on the front and -1.8º in the rear. Big difference specially in the wear of the outside shoulder, also a bit better grip when loaded up.


Going for a 275 instead of a 285 will not differ a lot, specially considering that thread width will vary with different tires. The balance of the car with the square setup has improved for my liking, with a bit more natural oversteery feeling without being overwhelming, the car just rotates better.

Important note, I don't daily this car - I use it for maybe 80-20 street-track, but on the street I mostly do some canyon carving on the weekends.

[BackOnBlack]

Originally Posted by silvermanor

Wanted to reach out to the big brains on this board for some advice.

Car is an M3 Comp Xdrive.

My usage:

Currently run the stock staggered setup in summer. Also do 5 non-competitive lapping days each summer.

Have about 300 laps or 600 miles on track in this car.

Am an intermediate skill level driver (not trying to set lap records).

Track time is all on star PS4S and Pzero. Got 4 sessions out of my Pzeros and they wore really nicely. Switched to PS4s and they are pretty chewed up after a single session as I am getting much faster.

I guess it's time to finally bite the bullet and address this. Tires are overheating, overstressed and the weight of the car is too much.

I am almost exactly in the same situation as you are. I have been using the PS4S tires and fronts have about 3 mm thread depth left over about 400 track miles and 7000 street miles.

Your experience with the tires mimic mine, especially about overheating. I have been looking at various tires just to get similar grip to PS4S, but that would stay consistent throughout lapping sessions. I was pretty much settled on AD09s, but most recent tire test by GRM is changing my mind towards Conti ExtremeContact Sport 02s.

Thinking about this setup:

827m square 19" 9.5" which I can get for less money than Apex wheels. Would just use 4 front 827m wheels.

AD09 or RS4 tires. Prefer AD09 because I want to be able to rotate them on 4 corners.

One thing I would not do is go down in wheel width. 9.5" wheels, regardless of tires, will overwhelm the rears and I believe will make the car less stable. If you are going to go square, then 10.5" wheels are better option. And if you are going to install camber plates, then I would suggest 10" front and 11" rear wheels, staying staggered.

Questions:

Are the AD09s going to wear as good as the RS4? I only have experience with RS4 and note them as a good endurance tire.

Are either of these really going to last materially longer than the PS4S given the TW200 tires are more resistant to heat?

I do not know about the tire life; however, they should handle heat within a session for 12-20 laps without issues. Many Bimmer drivers swear by RS4. At the same time, I would not expect longer life out of either of them, PS4S will last longer than both IMHO, provided you have camber plates.

Do I really need rear spacers if I do this setup? Is 12mm correct? Do I need longer bolts? I run the BMW 275 35 19 square setup in winter but know the rear wheels are 10" and the fronts are 9.5".

Is any of this rational? I'm trying the impossible of trying to make this a hybrid track street car and want to address the tire wear issue while also maintaining the street ability of the car which I drive to the office year round as well.

Thanks!

The only issue I see in your plans is the 9.5" wheels for square setup, I hope you don't do it

[silvermanor]

Originally Posted by BackOnBlack

I am almost exactly in the same situation as you are. I have been using the PS4S tires and fronts have about 3 mm thread depth left over about 400 track miles and 7000 street miles.

Your experience with the tires mimic mine, especially about overheating. I have been looking at various tires just to get similar grip to PS4S, but that would stay consistent throughout lapping sessions. I was pretty much settled on AD09s, but most recent tire test by GRM is changing my mind towards Conti ExtremeContact Sport 02s.

One thing I would not do is go down in wheel width. 9.5" wheels, regardless of tires, will overwhelm the rears and I believe will make the car less stable. If you are going to go square, then 10.5" wheels are better option. And if you are going to install camber plates, then I would suggest 10" front and 11" rear wheels, staying staggered.


I do not know about the tire life; however, they should handle heat within a session for 12-20 laps without issues. Many Bimmer drivers swear by RS4. At the same time, I would not expect longer life out of either of them, PS4S will last longer than both IMHO, provided you have camber plates.



The only issue I see in your plans is the 9.5" wheels for square setup, I hope you don't do it

That's the advice I needed. Thank you!

It's interesting that the apex wheels everyone suggests on here is also a 9.5" wheel and most guys run 285s on them. Thoughts?

[silvermanor]

Originally Posted by RM73

I've got a similar use case to yours, and I went in a pretty similar route to what you're suggesting. I have no experience with the RS4s, but I can compare the PS4S to the AD09 and the difference is night and day in track use, in grip, heat management and also wear.

Differences in my setup are the following:
- I went square 285/35/19 on a 10.5" wheel - the stock rears are 10.5", not 10". I'm not sure what is the offset of the 827m on 9.5", you'll probably not need such a big spacer, but you'll definitely need a spacer, at least to keep the stock wheel geometry and track width.

- Camber plates on the front with camber set to -3.2º on the front and -1.8º in the rear. Big difference specially in the wear of the outside shoulder, also a bit better grip when loaded up.


Going for a 275 instead of a 285 will not differ a lot, specially considering that thread width will vary with different tires. The balance of the car with the square setup has improved for my liking, with a bit more natural oversteery feeling without being overwhelming, the car just rotates better.

Important note, I don't daily this car - I use it for maybe 80-20 street-track, but on the street I mostly do some canyon carving on the weekends.

Thanks for this and good point on the tread width comment.

[lutfy]

Originally Posted by silvermanor

Wanted to reach out to the big brains on this board for some advice.

Car is an M3 Comp Xdrive.

My usage:

Currently run the stock staggered setup in summer. Also do 5 non-competitive lapping days each summer.

Have about 300 laps or 600 miles on track in this car.

Am an intermediate skill level driver (not trying to set lap records).

Track time is all on star PS4S and Pzero. Got 4 sessions out of my Pzeros and they wore really nicely. Switched to PS4s and they are pretty chewed up after a single session as I am getting much faster.

I guess it's time to finally bite the bullet and address this. Tires are overheating, overstressed and the weight of the car is too much.

Thinking about this setup:

827m square 19" 9.5" which I can get for less money than Apex wheels. Would just use 4 front 827m wheels.

AD09 or RS4 tires. Prefer AD09 because I want to be able to rotate them on 4 corners.

Questions:

Are the AD09s going to wear as good as the RS4? I only have experience with RS4 and note them as a good endurance tire.

Are either of these really going to last materially longer than the PS4S given the TW200 tires are more resistant to heat?

Have considered Millway street camber plates but I really don't want to be doing endless adjustments and alignments.

Is doing this setup and just rotating these tires after every track day a rational way to avoid getting them? I would be putting the stock PS4S and staggered setup back on after each track day.

Is this setup going to ruin the feel of the car on track? Do the rears really need to be 285? Anyone have an experience running a 275 square setup with x drive on track?

Do I really need rear spacers if I do this setup? Is 12mm correct? Do I need longer bolts? I run the BMW 275 35 19 square setup in winter but know the rear wheels are 10" and the fronts are 9.5".

Is any of this rational? I'm trying the impossible of trying to make this a hybrid track street car and want to address the tire wear issue while also maintaining the street ability of the car which I drive to the office year round as well.

Thanks!

Funny how I am not the only one with these considerations

BackOnBlack how we think alike.

I too have a few hundred track miles on my PS4 w/OEM wheels. Roughly 8K miles and have possibly another track weekend (coming up) left in it.

The outside tires took a massive beating, and will continue to as your progressively push the car more.

Obviously the best way to adjust the camber is with a pyrometer on track but this will be my fun and occasional NASA Time Trial (TT4) and I have no intentions of building to pointy end of the rules.

I recently got Ground Control camber plates and intend to set the front camber to -2.4 and rears to -1.9 and call it day.

You will need some camber up front otherwise the outside will take a beating, another option is to get the CSL hubs.

Got a set of 10.5 by 19 ET15 wheels but would then need to modify the fender liners or possibly run spacers (could have gotten away) but another forum member traded me his OEM wheels with 3K PZ4 for my wheels (no tires) so will stick with just that.

When the tires wear off, I'll likely run AD09 or Conti like Bob pointed out.

Hope this helps.

Lutfy

[silvermanor]

Originally Posted by lutfy

Funny how I am not the only one with these considerations

BackOnBlack how we think alike.

I too have a few hundred track miles on my PS4 w/OEM wheels. Roughly 8K miles and have possibly another track weekend (coming up) left in it.

The outside tires took a massive beating, and will continue to as your progressively push the car more.

Obviously the best way to adjust the camber is with a pyrometer on track but this will be my fun and occasional NASA Time Trial (TT4) and I have no intentions of building to pointy end of the rules.

I recently got Ground Control camber plates and intend to set the front camber to -2.4 and rears to -1.9 and call it day.

You will need some camber up front otherwise the outside will take a beating, another option is to get the CSL hubs.

Got a set of 10.5 by 19 ET15 wheels but would then need to modify the fender liners or possibly run spacers (could have gotten away) but another forum member traded me his OEM wheels with 3K PZ4 for my wheels (no tires) so will stick with just that.

When the tires wear off, I'll likely run AD09 or Conti like Bob pointed out.

Hope this helps.

Lutfy

I guess what I'm confused about is if I get the millway street plates can I jack the car up and adjust and go to the track, come back jack it up and adjust them back? I daily this car and I drive this car in the winter and don't want to trash my winters on the inside. Or do I need to get an alignment every time that plate is adjusted?

[BackOnBlack]

Originally Posted by silvermanor

I guess what I'm confused about is if I get the millway street plates can I jack the car up and adjust and go to the track, come back jack it up and adjust them back? I daily this car and I drive this car in the winter and don't want to trash my winters on the inside. Or do I need to get an alignment every time that plate is adjusted?

As long as you stay below -3.0 camber, you will be fine without adjusting it between track and daily. Although, yes, you certainly can adjust it. The toe will likely also change when you adjust camber, it is a McPherson strut setup up front, so just set it, like lutfy "and call it a day."

Also, do check out the GC camber plates from Bimmerworld, I think they maybe better than Millway.

[BackOnBlack]

Originally Posted by lutfy

When the tires wear off, I'll likely run AD09 or Conti like Bob pointed out.

Lutfy

Aren't AD09s force you add more balast for TT? I think I am going to be stuck in ST2, so I can even chose to run slicks

I'll see if I can dyno the car during the November event, then I'll figure out my final numbers, then decide on tires.

[silvermanor]

Originally Posted by BackOnBlack

As long as you stay below -3.0 camber, you will be fine without adjusting it between track and daily. Although, yes, you certainly can adjust it. The toe will likely also change when you adjust camber, it is a McPherson strut setup up front, so just set it, like lutfy "and call it a day."

Also, do check out the GC camber plates from Bimmerworld, I think they maybe better than Millway.

Thanks again. This is very very helpful.

[lutfy]

Originally Posted by BackOnBlack

Aren't AD09s force you add more balast for TT? I think I am going to be stuck in ST2, so I can even chose to run slicks

I'll see if I can dyno the car during the November event, then I'll figure out my final numbers, then decide on tires.

Correct! I am tight on weight hence could not run lighter wheels (cutting it very close to both power and weight in TT4). Options are PZ4, PS4 and whatever changes next year's rule brings, maybe the Continental.

silvermanor these cars are amazingly well engineered. Whatever you do, weight is of course against us.

Some camber and you will have a lot of fun! Enjoy in good health mate.

Lutfy

[silvermanor]

Originally Posted by lutfy

Correct! I am tight on weight hence could not run lighter wheels (cutting it very close to both power and weight in TT4). Options are PZ4, PS4 and whatever changes next year's rule brings, maybe the Continental.

silvermanor these cars are amazingly well engineered. Whatever you do, weight is of course against us.

Some camber and you will have a lot of fun! Enjoy in good health mate.

Lutfy

Thanks brother. Definitely love most of the engineering but a bit frustrated that there are a few compromises and not totally good to go out of the box for track.

[BackOnBlack]

Originally Posted by silvermanor

Thanks brother. Definitely love most of the engineering but a bit frustrated that there are a few compromises and not totally good to go out of the box for track.

I can relate to your comment. When I was purchasing the M3, I had reservations about track-readiness.

Frankly, it is nearly perfect out of the box. The only modifications I did was add braking cooling, new brake fluid and pads, and added 10mm spacers (should have gone with 12 mm though), that is it. For lapping around, I am good to go, nothing else needed to have fun. I manage my tires carefully, and still on OEM ones.

So, I'd say, it is good to go out of the box for tracking, but not quite ready for track records