[Bonziii82]

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[M3fanatic23]

Been waiting for this! Hope the M3CS is better

[ScullyD]

Its high praise, i'm excited to see for myself and compare my M5 CS to the M3 CS when mine comes in. Great review.

I don't agree that the M3 CS has faster shifts than the M5 CS, as I didn't feel like the M4 CSL had faster shifts in the 3rd setting than the M5 CS in the 3rd setting, at least on upshifts. It was just more aggresively tuned to provide artificial feedback to feel like a DCT, which is ultimately a fake feel. Thats a negative. A ZF should be smooth and maintain speed. On the downshifts it felt slightly faster, but once again, artificially aggressive. The CSL felt like the marketing dept watched over the engineers when they were doing the shift tuning.

Also the M4 CSL CCBs had better brake modulation because of the variable brake booster, and i'd assume the M3 CS CCBs will be the same (my order has CCBs). The M5 CS CCBs are traditional brake booster and therefore, very grabby for the street. You do get used to them though, but occasionally you could scare a passenger with an overly aggressive brake jab.

I disagree also on the feeling that the M5 CS doesn't feel light, because back to back with the M4 CSL for example, M5 CS feels like the lighter car on the street in the way it applies throttle and steers. The M5 CS steering lightness has real nuance to its feel, the M4 CSL was light like it was an Xbox steering wheel, which gets annoying. Maybe back to back with the M3 CS, the M3 CS feels even lighter than the M5 CS, which is all that more impressive. But i've driven the M5 CS back to back with an M2 CS, M5 CS subjectively feels the lighter car between the two.

[Bonziii82]

Looks very promising, mine arrives at dealer this weekend. Starting to get excited again. Now I just need to decide if I trade or sell my 18 Comp.

[kennybead]

Originally Posted by Bonziii82

https://youtu.be/KYjdbX2-TW4

https://youtu.be/KYjdbX2-TW4

Both are amazing cars, and an expected result. It’s splitting hairs at this point.

[Carhoney]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

Its high praise, i'm excited to see for myself and compare my M5 CS to the M3 CS when mine comes in. Great review.

I don't agree that the M3 CS has faster shifts than the M5 CS, as I didn't feel like the M4 CSL had faster shifts in the 3rd setting than the M5 CS in the 3rd setting, at least on upshifts. It was just more aggresively tuned to provide artificial feedback to feel like a DCT, which is ultimately a fake feel. Thats a negative. A ZF should be smooth and maintain speed. On the downshifts it felt slightly faster, but once again, artificially aggressive. The CSL felt like the marketing dept watched over the engineers when they were doing the shift tuning.

Also the M4 CSL CCBs had better brake modulation because of the variable brake booster, and i'd assume the M3 CS CCBs will be the same (my order has CCBs). The M5 CS CCBs are traditional brake booster and therefore, very grabby for the street. You do get used to them though, but occasionally you could scare a passenger with an overly aggressive brake jab.

I disagree also on the feeling that the M5 CS doesn't feel light, because back to back with the M4 CSL for example, M5 CS feels like the lighter car on the street in the way it applies throttle and steers. The M5 CS steering lightness has real nuance to its feel, the M4 CSL was light like it was an Xbox steering wheel, which gets annoying. Maybe back to back with the M3 CS, the M3 CS feels even lighter than the M5 CS, which is all that more impressive. But i've driven the M5 CS back to back with an M2 CS, M5 CS subjectively feels the lighter car between the two.

Hey Scully, our observation is that the shifts are actually faster in the highest setting compared to the m5. We turned off the active sound design and the “fakeness” of the shifting went away. It is now just fast and aggressive. And of course you can dial that down easily to be smoother if you’d like, but the optional quickness is a positive in certain situations to us.

Can’t comment on the M3CS CCB’s as we don’t have them but what you’re saying sounds optimistic. A variable brake booster would be a huge improvement over the m5’s application.

On steering, the M5CS steering and throttle do feel light or “easy”, but this does not actually make the car itself handle lightly. There is more body roll, less grip, and of course it is actually ~250-300 lbs heavier. The tighter steering and more sorted chassis of the M3CS make it actually handle more like a lighter car, which it is. Artificially light steering and throttle/brake may trick the user Into thinking the car handles lightly, but that is not actually a positive for track or performance driving, especially when there is significantly less feedback on the steering due to its artificial lightness/tuning. For the street, yes it’s fun and easy to toss around, sure, but that’s not real lightness.

[ScullyD]

Originally Posted by Carhoney

Hey Scully, our observation is that the shifts are actually faster in the highest setting compared to the m5. We turned off the active sound design and the “fakeness” of the shifting went away. It is now just fast and aggressive. And of course you can dial that down easily to be smoother if you’d like, but the optional quickness is a positive in certain situations to us.

Yeah I would have liked to have turned off the the ASD in the M4 CSL and tried it. But the jolt of that car when shifting up or down, imo, is not needed to produce fast shifts. I think Jethro Bovingdon said it in EVO, it feels like the gearbox is just being made do something wasn't designed to do for affect.

I'm just using the M4 CSL as a frame of reference as I assume the gearbox tuning is identical, but you guys should try to test the two cars if possible.

Originally Posted by Carhoney

On steering, the M5CS steering and throttle do feel light or “easy”, but this does not actually make the car itself handle lightly. There is more body roll, less grip, and of course it is actually ~250-300 lbs heavier. The tighter steering and more sorted chassis of the M3CS make it actually handle more like a lighter car, which it is. Artificially light steering and throttle/brake may trick the user Into thinking the car handles lightly, but that is not actually a positive for track or performance driving, especially when there is significantly less feedback on the steering due to its artificial lightness/tuning. For the street, yes it’s fun and easy to toss around, sure, but that’s not real lightness.

The M5 CS undoubtedly the heavier car, and I think the body roll into a corner accentuates the feel of the steering in that particular car. The car never understeers when it corners, it just layers on enough body roll to let you know to ease up. But you can really lean on it into a corner. "Fun and easy to toss around" is a pretty amazing characteristic for a 4000+lb 5 series, but that is an accurate description. But it needs that body roll and chassis flex to be interesting.

M4 CSL on the other hand, cornered entirely flat with absolutely 0 feeling of body roll or chassis flex, and the steering was very direct, but had 0 feel of any kind. As a result, unless you were pushing it hard, the car feels massive (i'm not the only one saying this, see any other car reviewer). It just wasn't a car that was interesting to drive at normal speeds. I didn't find it uncomfortable, i just found it boring. The steering in the CSL was very light also, but just like the M5 CS, that lightness was something i appreciated.

I was expecting (hoping) the M3 CS to fall somewhere between those two cars. More aggressive (as you pointed out) than an M5 CS, but hopefully more interesting to drive at normal speeds than the CSL because it layers in some chassis flex.

When a car is too tightly sprung for the purpose of track driving, you'll end up with a car that just won't have any character at normal speeds.

[Carhoney]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

Yeah I would have liked to have turned off the the ASD in the M4 CSL and tried it. But the jolt of that car when shifting up or down, imo, is not needed to produce fast shifts. I think Jethro Bovingdon said it in EVO, it feels like the gearbox is just being made do something wasn't designed to do for affect.

I'm just using the M4 CSL as a frame of reference as I assume the gearbox tuning is identical, but you guys should try to test the two cars if possible.



The M5 CS undoubtedly the heavier car, and I think the body roll into a corner accentuates the feel of the steering in that particular car. The car never understeers when it corners, it just layers on enough body roll to let you know to ease up. But you can really lean on it into a corner. "Fun and easy to toss around" is a pretty amazing characteristic for a 4000+lb 5 series, but that is an accurate description. But it needs that body roll and chassis flex to be interesting.

M4 CSL on the other hand, cornered entirely flat with absolutely 0 feeling of body roll or chassis flex, and the steering was very direct, but had 0 feel of any kind. As a result, unless you were pushing it hard, the car feels massive (i'm not the only one saying this, see any other car reviewer). It just wasn't a car that was interesting to drive at normal speeds. I didn't find it uncomfortable, i just found it boring. The steering in the CSL was very light also, but just like the M5 CS, that lightness was something i appreciated.

I was expecting (hoping) the M3 CS to fall somewhere between those two cars. More aggressive (as you pointed out) than an M5 CS, but hopefully more interesting to drive at normal speeds than the CSL because it layers in some chassis flex.

When a car is too tightly sprung for the purpose of track driving, you'll end up with a car that just won't have any character at normal speeds.

We do need to test the M4 CSL for sure - it's hard to find but we're working on it. Honestly the jolt in the M3CS from shifting after turning of ASD was only very slightly worse than the M5CS while being slightly faster. Now I wonder if it is actually quite different from the CSL.

I think, based on what you're saying about the M4 CSL and the other reviews of that car, that the M3 CS actually IS the sweet spot between the M5CS and M4CSL in terms of driving character and usability on the street. We have a GT4RS and for sure the M3 CS is dramatically more flexible and compliant than that. So, either we are just already accustomed to stiffer more track oriented cars and the M3 CS is a welcome relief on the street AND/OR the M3 CS actually is nailing the overall driving characteristics that we're both looking for.

Look forward to hearing your thoughts once you get in yours and we'll share ours if we land an M4CSL first. Cheers!

[Lokguru]

I also wonder, similar to these guys, why M3CS has so far not got much press (compared to other CS releases)

[G80M3CSBR]

Would love to see an M3 CS vs M4 CSL review on street and track

[Carhoney]

Originally Posted by Lokguru

I also wonder, similar to these guys, why M3CS has so far not got much press (compared to other CS releases)

We're wondering if A) BMW kept press cars to a minimum for some reason or B) Journalists wrote it off before it was available to test or C) There's some sort of BMW Embargo on reviews and we just beat the crowds because we bought one?

[Emtoo]

In many cases the press cars (globally) are just starting to arrive. Expect more M3 CS journalist reviews over the next month or 2.

[Lokguru]

Originally Posted by Carhoney

We're wondering if A) BMW kept press cars to a minimum for some reason or B) Journalists wrote it off before it was available to test or C) There's some sort of BMW Embargo on reviews and we just beat the crowds because we bought one?

Ya seems so ; maybe more (A). By now all allocations are taken, so I am not sure whether BMW has much incentive to do press cars. I feel the success of M2CS and M5CS just made M3CS naturally excited among BMW fans/enthusiasts. Reviews on this are going to be more based on individuals buying and giving their thoughts.

[Carhoney]

Good to know press cars are still coming, thanks for that info!

I know everybody is saying all allocations are taken, but I only secured mine a month ago in Northern California and at that time I called about 10 dealers asking what their builds were (since they were all locked a long time ago) and literally each dealer hadn’t sold theirs yet. It seemed like they were not marketing the car for sale or something and even just a month ago I was early to it. Point being if you want an M3CS call your local dealer and see if they still have theirs coming in and I’d bet you can find one still.

[BzsBimmer]

A other great review by Carhoney

While watching your video really makes me wish I kept my CS order, there are just some dealer shenanigans I can’t stand and walked away on principle and ended up with my G80 CX.

But I’m all honesty I would not be taking it to the track, probably ever, and would have relegated it for Bay Area backroad duty during the summer months and mainly keep it in the garage which seems to be a waste of good car genetics. Hopefully it’ll go to a better owner who would fully appreciate its DNA.

In the meanwhile, your two CS videos, to date, are the most substantive CS content so far and if you happen to get your hands on a CSL, all the better for a bake off.

Keep the great stuff comin!

[willyp]

Sounds like I made right decision! I was hoping the m3 CS would be a better driving/track car and the m5 the better daily. At least I few better about passing on the m5 CS now.

They are definitely right too cars have gotten so quick over the past few years. That m4 CSL is nearly as quick around the Nurburgring as the 918 spyder, which is truly insane when you think about it. I can’t wait to see what the CS can do, funny enough I checked last night hoping I missed it. Come on Christian… lol

As far as the sound, the M5 sounds incredible, I think I’m gonna put a more aggressive exhaust on mine whenever it gets delivered and really enjoy it as that’s one of my favorite things about the car. The m3 sounds is a bit too high pitched for me to love it, sounds like it’s gonna blow. The turbo on the m3 sounds are a lot more aggressive though IMO.

I didn’t much care for the CCB on the m3 tbh. They weren’t very linear at all. Both cars do hide their weight well but the m5 does has some body roll.

To be fair I have never driven either CS but I drive my cars hard and am pretty good at feedback on them. However week 27 is getting closer and closer!

These guys are good... Matching tires even, damn. Thanks for sharing, and how funny they nailed the weight spot on. I do wish they had went into idrive7 vs idrive8…

Nice work guys

[M3WC]

M5 CS is one BMW best looking vehicles in recent histoy. The perfect 4 door.

[1209582]

seeing these two side by side makes me appreciate how aggressive the m3cs front end is.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

Its high praise, i'm excited to see for myself and compare my M5 CS to the M3 CS when mine comes in. Great review.

I don't agree that the M3 CS has faster shifts than the M5 CS, as I didn't feel like the M4 CSL had faster shifts in the 3rd setting than the M5 CS in the 3rd setting, at least on upshifts. It was just more aggresively tuned to provide artificial feedback to feel like a DCT, which is ultimately a fake feel. Thats a negative. A ZF should be smooth and maintain speed. On the downshifts it felt slightly faster, but once again, artificially aggressive. The CSL felt like the marketing dept watched over the engineers when they were doing the shift tuning.

Also the M4 CSL CCBs had better brake modulation because of the variable brake booster, and i'd assume the M3 CS CCBs will be the same (my order has CCBs). The M5 CS CCBs are traditional brake booster and therefore, very grabby for the street. You do get used to them though, but occasionally you could scare a passenger with an overly aggressive brake jab.

I disagree also on the feeling that the M5 CS doesn't feel light, because back to back with the M4 CSL for example, M5 CS feels like the lighter car on the street in the way it applies throttle and steers. The M5 CS steering lightness has real nuance to its feel, the M4 CSL was light like it was an Xbox steering wheel, which gets annoying. Maybe back to back with the M3 CS, the M3 CS feels even lighter than the M5 CS, which is all that more impressive. But i've driven the M5 CS back to back with an M2 CS, M5 CS subjectively feels the lighter car between the two.

i don't think we can get a M5 CS in my country

what's the difference between the M5 CS and the M5 C in terms of suspension & handling?

[clutchdj]

Originally Posted by g21

i don't think we can get a M5 CS in my country

what's the difference between the M5 CS and the M5 C in terms of suspension & handling?

A lot of the handling has to do with the weight that has been removed from the car and _where it has been removed from (mid section, helps with the lateral acceleration). some differences are steel vr aluminum doors, CF hood, the removal of DAP resurrected the dead steering (5comp vr 5cs), CF buckets; retuned suspension; etc etc.

behind the m5cs rear seat back is a huge aluminum plate that further stiffens the chassis. there is very little talk about it but both the csl and 5cs have it. not sure about the g80cs.

[bholler]

That M5 CS is an instant classic. Just done right is so many ways.

[brava09]

Waiting for the M4 CS, as I like more the coupe shape