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      02-27-2023, 07:20 AM   #1
spuntyb
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BMW not ruling out hydrogen for New Class (Neue Klasse) platform

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Interesting to say the least. I’m imagining a hybrid version where it’s partially powered by hydrogen with an EV base platform, like ICE/EV hybrids now lol. Is that even a thing? I don’t know much about the hydrogen technology architecture tbh.

https://www.autoblog.com/2023/02/27/...w-class-model/

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      02-27-2023, 09:16 AM   #2
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This is great news. Hydrogen is much more sustainable than the destructive mining that is required to create batteries. It also has a similar fill time and range to ICE, eliminating the 30 min+ stops on a road trip. Not to mention your hydrogen fuel cell car can generate so much power it can be a backup energy source for your home.
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      02-27-2023, 09:37 AM   #3
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This great news that BMW is jumping in!
So far, Toyota has been the lone ranger on this one in the industry.
Hydrogen does not require as much of a production design switch as full EVs.
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      02-27-2023, 09:42 AM   #4
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      02-27-2023, 10:05 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnewnam View Post
This is great news. Hydrogen is much more sustainable than the destructive mining that is required to create batteries. It also has a similar fill time and range to ICE, eliminating the 30 min+ stops on a road trip. Not to mention your hydrogen fuel cell car can generate so much power it can be a backup energy source for your home.
So how does this integrate with the EV platform? It sounds like it can be built in initially, and then utilized later on, at which point, would it just complement the EV system, like batteries do now with ICE engines, or would it like take over completely?
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      02-27-2023, 10:14 AM   #6
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Toyota has been trying to make hydrogen fuel cells a thing for 20 years. It isn’t scalable for pssenger vehicles (requires more energy to make the hydrogen than it produces) and storage is an issue. Even a pressurized tank in a vehicle will still leak hydrogen and go empty faster than you think (a few weeks). What hydrogen makes the most sense for is over the road trucking, which is a horrid use case for battery electrics (even though Tesla is pushing their semi).
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      02-27-2023, 11:57 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXSchnee View Post
Toyota has been trying to make hydrogen fuel cells a thing for 20 years. It isn’t scalable for pssenger vehicles (requires more energy to make the hydrogen than it produces) and storage is an issue. Even a pressurized tank in a vehicle will still leak hydrogen and go empty faster than you think (a few weeks). What hydrogen makes the most sense for is over the road trucking, which is a horrid use case for battery electrics (even though Tesla is pushing their semi).
Do you have a source on weeks to empty? My napkin math says years.
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      02-27-2023, 12:06 PM   #8
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A few YouTube videos showing fueling in 2023 to take much longer than an ICE fill up.

I agree it’s more sustainable- I’ve even read internal combustion can be modified for hydrogen consumption.

But I’ve also seen seed oil used as fuel. Isn’t that even better and more sustainable?
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      02-27-2023, 02:50 PM   #9
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They’re going to have a significant task in convincing the public it’s safe.
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      02-27-2023, 04:56 PM   #10
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I’m dating myself, but I believe BMW was driving a hydrogen 7 series way back in 2000 +\- Several copies they had for press /magazines.

Not a new technology, they just didn’t know how to scale it/deal with the refueling I suppose. Evidently you could drink the water coming from the tailpipe.
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      02-27-2023, 05:08 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rilla View Post
Do you have a source on weeks to empty? My napkin math says years.
You are on a computer, google hydrogen fuel cell leaks, lots of info and it isn't from oil companies.
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      02-27-2023, 05:19 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXSchnee View Post
You are on a computer, google hydrogen fuel cell leaks, lots of info and it isn't from oil companies.
I looked it up and found mandated leakage rates. Doesn’t add up to your claims
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      02-27-2023, 10:10 PM   #13
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Is it true they insist on hydrogen cells to get rid off charging time ??
The drama of range anxiety and charging time is not real for most of people who drive about 60 miles aday and have a garage in their home . I have had teslas in thel last 3 years and charge that thing every evening when I get home, with 110 volts! Combined with charging my i8 and tesla my electric bill jumped around $60 a month wich is a fraction of my previous gas expenses, my home daily charge is good for my daily drive. I never ended up to go to super charger unless im traveling, which i do a lot. My trips are usually about 400 miles round trips, car had mid 300 miles range and the car tells you where and when to charge to spend least amount of time while charging.
On a 250v supercharger which is getting more and more common, charging to get you to your destination is not s painful task at all.
And the best part is: i have not seen a mechanic or going to a dealer in the last 3 years (Except for i8!)
People have to leave for a couple of weeks with s electric car to see how convenient and fun they are.
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      02-28-2023, 07:00 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghaffari46 View Post
Is it true they insist on hydrogen cells to get rid off charging time ??
The drama of range anxiety and charging time is not real for most of people who drive about 60 miles aday and have a garage in their home . I have had teslas in thel last 3 years and charge that thing every evening when I get home, with 110 volts! Combined with charging my i8 and tesla my electric bill jumped around $60 a month wich is a fraction of my previous gas expenses, my home daily charge is good for my daily drive. I never ended up to go to super charger unless im traveling, which i do a lot. My trips are usually about 400 miles round trips, car had mid 300 miles range and the car tells you where and when to charge to spend least amount of time while charging.
On a 250v supercharger which is getting more and more common, charging to get you to your destination is not s painful task at all.
And the best part is: i have not seen a mechanic or going to a dealer in the last 3 years (Except for i8!)
People have to leave for a couple of weeks with s electric car to see how convenient and fun they are.
Tesla’s/EVs in general are designed for people with garages (or rather, those that have a garage they can actually pull a vic into!). The public/private charging network is not there yet for the tens of millions of owners that do not have access to their own personal garage/charging space. Just rented a Model 3 from Hertz - idiots gave it to me at 71% charge (said to bring it back at that level…), and driving around the Puget Sound for 4 days, from SeaTac to Vancouver BC, was a challenge- one I had never before experienced. Didn’t like wasting my time for 30 min in a Walmart while it charged.
We just ain’t there. EV’s not ready yet for those without personal charging sports. Will hydrogen help? Hope so…
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      02-28-2023, 07:59 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghaffari46 View Post
Is it true they insist on hydrogen cells to get rid off charging time ??
The drama of range anxiety and charging time is not real for most of people who drive about 60 miles aday and have a garage in their home . I have had teslas in thel last 3 years and charge that thing every evening when I get home, with 110 volts! Combined with charging my i8 and tesla my electric bill jumped around $60 a month wich is a fraction of my previous gas expenses, my home daily charge is good for my daily drive. I never ended up to go to super charger unless im traveling, which i do a lot. My trips are usually about 400 miles round trips, car had mid 300 miles range and the car tells you where and when to charge to spend least amount of time while charging.
On a 250v supercharger which is getting more and more common, charging to get you to your destination is not s painful task at all.
And the best part is: i have not seen a mechanic or going to a dealer in the last 3 years (Except for i8!)
People have to leave for a couple of weeks with s electric car to see how convenient and fun they are.
There's a lot of people who live in cities where charging on anything other than public chargers is difficult. Once you're paying public charging station rates, the cost difference between electric and gas starts to disappear and at that point you're convincing people to pay a lot more money for something that's objectively worse than what they have today.

I drive I95 to my parents house every Thanksgiving and one thing that is always a constant is that Tesla superchargers are in ultra high demand at the rest stops which means waiting to charge.

Hydrogen has a lot of issues particularly related to storage (leakage, metal embrittlement, etc) but batteries have their own issues. Dragging around 2 tons of batteries everywhere you go for the few times a year you need to drive 400 miles seems wasteful. The promise of hydrogen is that you may be able to significantly reduce the weight of the vehicle but that's still a pipe dream.

I think it's cool that we're exploring alternatives to just BEVs, I don't think it's as much as a solved problem as Elon Musk says it is.
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      02-28-2023, 12:32 PM   #16
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I agree that not having a garage especially in northern states is a problem for EV owners but more and and more apartment buildings are installing EV chargers to attract more people , i have an apartment in dc and they are installing charger in the basement (for a fee) which will eliminate my supercharger use for my travel to dc and come back home.
What is missing in these calculations are the amount of time and efforts for fueling up your ICE car, even onces a week fueling translates at least 20-30 minutes a month, and i hate any second of it especially in crazy Pennsylvania winter. If you have all the pieces in place you spend zero extra time to charge your car, like you never go to a different place to charge your cell phone.
With these new laws and incentives I already saw plans for expanding EV infrastructure, I think every thing will be much smoother for mass population very soon, inventing the wheel again by going after hydrogen sounds a little silly.
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      02-28-2023, 03:02 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghaffari46 View Post
I agree that not having a garage especially in northern states is a problem for EV owners but more and and more apartment buildings are installing EV chargers to attract more people , i have an apartment in dc and they are installing charger in the basement (for a fee) which will eliminate my supercharger use for my travel to dc and come back home.
What is missing in these calculations are the amount of time and efforts for fueling up your ICE car, even onces a week fueling translates at least 20-30 minutes a month, and i hate any second of it especially in crazy Pennsylvania winter. If you have all the pieces in place you spend zero extra time to charge your car, like you never go to a different place to charge your cell phone.
With these new laws and incentives I already saw plans for expanding EV infrastructure, I think every thing will be much smoother for mass population very soon, inventing the wheel again by going after hydrogen sounds a little silly.
The crap part of these ‘common’ charging systems is that you can’t just plug your vehicle in when you get home and forget about it until morning. You have to go back down to your car in a few hours and move it away from the charger so it’s available for use by others. Then there’s the issue of your neighbors not moving their car away from the charger so you’re juiced up and ready for the next day. Not sure why I’d voluntarily add this complexity to my everyday.
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      02-28-2023, 05:08 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by DM5PAV View Post
I’d love a hydrogen car.
I want to die in an instant in a giant fireball (not soon please.)
I want to die peacefully while asleep, just like my grandpa; not screaming with fear, like the passengers in his car.
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      02-28-2023, 05:32 PM   #19
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That's really exciting! It's great to see more companies investing in hydrogen fuel cell technology. It definitely has a lot of potential.
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      02-28-2023, 08:29 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadruple VANOS View Post
The crap part of these ‘common’ charging systems is that you can’t just plug your vehicle in when you get home and forget about it until morning. You have to go back down to your car in a few hours and move it away from the charger so it’s available for use by others. Then there’s the issue of your neighbors not moving their car away from the charger so you’re juiced up and ready for the next day. Not sure why I’d voluntarily add this complexity to my everyday.
Don’t get an EV unless you have your own plug for your daily use.
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      02-28-2023, 11:18 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnewnam View Post
This is great news. Hydrogen is much more sustainable...
Hahahaha. Hydrogen is a scam for people who failed high school physics.
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      03-01-2023, 05:09 AM   #22
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