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      01-20-2023, 04:26 PM   #1
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M4 CSL in Road and Track Performance Car of the Year 2023 Competition

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https://www.roadandtrack.com/reviews...ar-of-the-year


Here are some excerpts from article:

- BMW M4 CSL: No words, just letters and a number that mean so much in the 50th year of BMW M. The thing is, “CSL” is usually reserved for cars intended for the road first, track second. The Sport Cup 2 R tires here indicate otherwise. Driven after something exceptionally nimble such as the Cayman GT4 RS, the M4 initially feels boatlike. A thing you sit atop, not in. This 543-hp, lightweight, rear-drive M4 pulls like the gravity on Jupiter.

-Lean into it with the traction control turned down, and the M4 CSL is a thrill. It has interstellar speed—the CSL, the Huracán Tecnica, and the Z06 were the only cars to exceed 140 mph—and it demands attention everywhere. You need to be active on the wheel, catching slides constantly on corner exits. The steering is BMW’s new normal: overboosted with little feel yet accurate. Trust it and it rewards. This was our fourth-quickest car, running a 1:24.2. But honestly, it’s a bit boring to drive below its limits. At lower speeds, an all-wheel-drive M4 Competition is nearly as quick and much cheaper.

- We still haven’t wrapped our brains around the M4’s nose job, either. That flared pig’s snout that overtook the 4-series is spreading throughout BMW’s lineup. Yet the real curiosity is the badge affixed to this M4’s trunk. The letters “CSL” have graced only the lightest, most focused versions of the best compact BMWs ever built, legends like the E46 M3 CSL and E9 3.0 CSL “Batmobile.”

- Like other M4s, the CSL plays drift missile in every corner, with accurate steering and a firm, unflappable chassis. When the road is dry and the tires warm, no supercar will shake the CSL from its mirrors. But despite a bump in power, a bit of weight shaved off, and some visual faff, the M4 CSL doesn’t do enough to separate itself from the standard M4.

- We want the old E46 CSL tricks applied to the new M4: even less sound deadening, an idiosyncratic intake note, zero embellishments, and no A/C or radio or lighted CSL badges in the headrests. Every component of a CSL should make sense when viewed through the uncompromising lens of the phrase “The Ultimate Driving Machine.” This CSL couldn’t clear that hallowed bar.
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      01-20-2023, 05:06 PM   #2
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      01-20-2023, 05:33 PM   #3
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It’s been the same from professional reviewers for awhile. They’re just telling both sides what they want to hear,

No supercar will shake the csl!
Not really that different from the regular m4!
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      01-20-2023, 06:05 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by DM5PAV View Post
It’s been the same from professional reviewers for awhile. They’re just telling both sides what they want to hear,

No supercar will shake the csl!
Not really that different from the regular m4!
When you are driving at normal speed, it does feel like just a really good M4. When you start to really push it, it feels special. I think the car is being judged too much against the badge on it.

Also CSL never meant “road first”, in fact bmw had a PowerPoint deck that said the opposite and how CSL was replacing GTS in their branding. They had an M2 CSL prototype that had a cage and a wing. I think the reason they didn’t put a cage and wing on this particular car is cause it probably didn’t provide the benefits needed to justify that weight.

They wanted to be able to have their performance monikers be C -> CS -> CSL. GTS was a Porsche term historically, not a BMW term.
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      01-20-2023, 06:08 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScullyD View Post
When you are driving at normal speed, it does feel like just a really good M4. When you start to really push it, it feels special. I think the car is being judged too much against the badge on it.

Also CSL never meant “road first”, in fact bmw had a PowerPoint deck that said the opposite and how CSL was replacing GTS in their branding. They had an M2 CSL prototype that had a cage and a wing. I think the reason they didn’t put a cage and wing on this particular car is cause it probably didn’t provide the benefits needed to justify that weight.
Not sure what a really good m4 is, you mean like a tuned m4 with some aftermarket parts?
That’s pretty much what I always thought of these cars as, tuned and aftermarket from BMW warranty intact.

As for the rest, anyone can read what they like from these reviews and read and reread them voraciously… but they are at least half BS.
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      01-20-2023, 06:22 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DM5PAV View Post
Not sure what a really good m4 is, you mean like a tuned m4 with some aftermarket parts?
That’s pretty much what I always thought of these cars as, tuned and aftermarket from BMW warranty intact.

As for the rest, anyone can read what they like from these reviews and read and reread them voraciously… but they are at least half BS.
I think it’s tough to say. I think the feel of the M2 CS and M5 CS cars would be virtually impossible to replicate in the aftermarket. The way their software has been tuned to take advantage of small tweaks in the chassis setup feels too nuanced.

As for the M4 CSL, It actually feels a lot different than the older F80 M4s I’ve driven cause of the rear suspension configuration. So it doesn’t feel like a tuned aftermarket car could come close to that feeling unless it did so much chassis work to an M4C, that you’d start to run up a big bill for a tuning job.

However, I think you could possibly make a tuned M4 that thrills you as much as the CSL or more 99% of the time. In fact the CSL itself is in need of some tweaks, I think, to be better on the road at 6-7/10s.

I haven’t driven a regular g80 personally, but if it’s somehow a lot less than the CSL in “fun to drive factor”, then it’s actually alot worse of a car then press and buyers will lead you to believe.
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      01-21-2023, 01:13 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScullyD View Post
When you are driving at normal speed, it does feel like just a really good M4. When you start to really push it, it feels special. I think the car is being judged too much against the badge on it.

Also CSL never meant “road first”, in fact bmw had a PowerPoint deck that said the opposite and how CSL was replacing GTS in their branding. They had an M2 CSL prototype that had a cage and a wing. I think the reason they didn’t put a cage and wing on this particular car is cause it probably didn’t provide the benefits needed to justify that weight.

They wanted to be able to have their performance monikers be C -> CS -> CSL. GTS was a Porsche term historically, not a BMW term.
I have a patent in the US for an invention of mine. Few years after the first patent, I applied for another.

After three years of searching the entire world for other prior art, USPTO cited my first patent against my second.

Similarly, the problem with M4CSL is not weight, length, or even the performance; the problem with the M4CSL is how good the M4 Competition is
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      01-21-2023, 11:05 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadBimmeRad View Post
I have a patent in the US for an invention of mine. Few years after the first patent, I applied for another.

After three years of searching the entire world for other prior art, USPTO cited my first patent against my second.

Similarly, the problem with M4CSL is not weight, length, or even the performance; the problem with the M4CSL is how good the M4 Competition is
I agree the M4Cx is a phenomenal car, I really loved mine but I would compare the two as a Turbo vs GT3 in a way. The CSL just takes the same platform, loses the AWD, and turns up each metric a notch or two or several and feels much more alive.

The M4CSL biggest enemy is its badge. It seems no one can get over their L predisposition and just rate the car on its merits and leave out the "but CSL should be X." I really think the badge actually affects its real world ratings/standings which to me is unbelievable until I think about how the average brain works and then it is believable.
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      01-21-2023, 01:34 PM   #9
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If I were buying any of these and needed something for the road and the track, the CSL trumps all, followed by the Corolla or Elantra N imvho

I’d give it to the GT4, but none of these have rear seats, even in a technical sense, and that looooong second gear continues to plague it on the streets short of a $15k gear box swap.
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      01-21-2023, 01:53 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spuntyb View Post
If I were buying any of these and needed something for the road and the track, the CSL trumps all, followed by the Corolla or Elantra N imvho

I’d give it to the GT4, but none of these have rear seats, even in a technical sense, and that looooong second gear continues to plague it on the streets short of a $15k gear box swap.
The GT4 RS fixes that, as they changed the gear ratios.

But one thing to note about the M4 CSL, and this goes more about ownership proposition than road test reviews:

1) the build quality of the car the car is absolutely perfect so far. The materials are all super detailed and expensive feeling everywhere. It feels like it should cost $150k. It has a feeling of solidity about it that I’ve never experienced in any other BMW or Porsche I’ve been in.

2) it’s as easy to get serviced and maintained as any 3/4 series, while it tangles with exotica from Ferrari, Maserati and Lamborghini etc.
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      01-21-2023, 02:36 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Higgs Boson View Post
I agree the M4Cx is a phenomenal car, I really loved mine but I would compare the two as a Turbo vs GT3 in a way. The CSL just takes the same platform, loses the AWD, and turns up each metric a notch or two or several and feels much more alive.

The M4CSL biggest enemy is its badge. It seems no one can get over their L predisposition and just rate the car on its merits and leave out the "but CSL should be X." I really think the badge actually affects its real world ratings/standings which to me is unbelievable until I think about how the average brain works and then it is believable.
The L in the CSL’s badge is what BMW is using to justify a massive price increase compared to the M4C.

I think the M4C is a very divisive but effective car, especially in its class. The moment you increase its price to compete against the Z06 and 911, a lot of the cars base deficiencies + more subtle changes stand out badly.

BTW the old CSL was also criticized for being too expensive so this isn’t new.
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      01-21-2023, 02:50 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emtwo View Post
The L in the CSL’s badge is what BMW is using to justify a massive price increase compared to the M4C.

I think the M4C is a very divisive but effective car, especially in its class. The moment you increase its price to compete against the Z06 and 911, a lot of the cars base deficiencies + more subtle changes stand out badly.

BTW the old CSL was also criticized for being too expensive so this isn’t new.
You should try to drive a CSL before saying the upcharge is for the L badge, lol. Having had both M4Cx and M4CSL, I am super happy paying 40k+ more for the CSL, it's that different of a car.

I paid 235k (sticker) for my R8 and the fun factor is a greater difference from the M4 to the CSL than it is from the CSL to R8.
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      01-21-2023, 03:05 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Higgs Boson View Post
You should try to drive a CSL before saying the upcharge is for the L badge, lol. Having had both M4Cx and M4CSL, I am super happy paying 40k+ more for the CSL, it's that different of a car.

I paid 235k (sticker) for my R8 and the fun factor is a greater difference from the M4 to the CSL than it is from the CSL to R8.
In Canada, the CSL is 60k more than an “ultimate” M4C with every option added and around nearly 80k more than a base M4, not including luxury tax etc.

I’m glad you really like the CSL but like every expensive BMW, it’s simply competing in a category where it doesn’t look as competitive.

I currently have a Z06 on order and that is going to be cheaper, NA, V8 with 100 hp extra over the CSL while looking and sounding better. The CSL just has too much going against it at this stage although I’m sure it’s value will rise in 15 years or so as the inevitable benchmark for an EV CSL that weighs 10,000 lbs.
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      01-21-2023, 03:13 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emtwo View Post
In Canada, the CSL is 60k more than an “ultimate” M4C with every option added and around nearly 80k more than a base M4, not including luxury tax etc.

I’m glad you really like the CSL but like every expensive BMW, it’s simply competing in a category where it doesn’t look as competitive.

I currently have a Z06 on order and that is going to be cheaper, NA, V8 with 100 hp extra over the CSL while looking and sounding better. The CSL just has too much going against it at this stage although I’m sure it’s value will rise in 15 years or so as the inevitable benchmark for an EV CSL that weighs 10,000 lbs.
Nice, my C8Z is in 4000 status and I hope to have it in a few days. I'll let you know if it's any good.

Regarding the CSL, good thing there's only 250 or so over here. Won't be many left down the road.
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      01-21-2023, 04:01 PM   #15
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As a driver of an M4 Xdrive Comp, I naturally want the CSL to achieve. It looks great, but unfortunately doesn’t which is a real shame.

https://www.evo.co.uk/evo-car-of-the...-year-2022?amp
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      01-21-2023, 04:40 PM   #16
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I have no freaking clue what really is a E46 CSL, I never drove one, never seen one (in the flesh) and it will probably never happen because this damn car is non existent in North America, can we please stop comparing cars to it 20 years later.

I have a hard time understanding how they want the M4 CSL to be louder, maybe they are starting to become deaf from driving the GT4RS cause the CSL is freakin loud vs the regular M4 !
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      01-21-2023, 04:51 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emtwo View Post
In Canada, the CSL is 60k more than an “ultimate” M4C with every option added and around nearly 80k more than a base M4, not including luxury tax etc.

I’m glad you really like the CSL but like every expensive BMW, it’s simply competing in a category where it doesn’t look as competitive.

I currently have a Z06 on order and that is going to be cheaper, NA, V8 with 100 hp extra over the CSL while looking and sounding better. The CSL just has too much going against it at this stage although I’m sure it’s value will rise in 15 years or so as the inevitable benchmark for an EV CSL that weighs 10,000 lbs.
We all know the Z06 is the bargain of sports cars and just like the Camaro's, Blackwings and other GM products or 700hp Mustangs the price to pay for this huge bargain is a car that looks like it was designed by an 8years old dreaming of flying cars with square steering wheels. I don't have anything against the Corvette but it is what it is, NOT a precisely engineered German product. If you take only the price as a metric, of course it's going to beat everything.
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      01-21-2023, 05:22 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emtwo View Post
In Canada, the CSL is 60k more than an “ultimate” M4C with every option added and around nearly 80k more than a base M4, not including luxury tax etc.
Respectfully, the 60K price difference cited above is not accurate. A fully optioned "ultimate" M4C in Canada is $136,600 prior to taxes and dealer fees (see pdf below). This is $29,700 less than a M4 CSL, not $60K.

In other words, for a premium of 22% over the MSRP of an ultimate M4C, you can get a CSL. Considering the extra performance, exclusivity and greater likelihood of holding value in the future, that price difference is fully justified and well worth it imo.

The CSL is offered only as a fully-loaded car. It makes more sense to compare its price to that of a fully loaded M4 than the base car (which, unfortunately, was done by many car "reviewers" on Youtube).
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      01-21-2023, 06:52 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DM5PAV View Post
It’s been the same from professional reviewers for awhile. They’re just telling both sides what they want to hear,

No supercar will shake the csl!
Not really that different from the regular m4!
Wait...

If a supercar can't shake a CSL -> CSL not that different from regular M4 == supercar can't shake a regular M4
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      01-21-2023, 06:58 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadBimmeRad View Post
I have a patent in the US for an invention of mine. Few years after the first patent, I applied for another.

After three years of searching the entire world for other prior art, USPTO cited my first patent against my second.

Similarly, the problem with M4CSL is not weight, length, or even the performance; the problem with the M4CSL is how good the M4 Competition is
That’s my take away also and speaks well to bmw.
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      01-21-2023, 07:54 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by edwinm3 View Post
Wrong, there were two in the states years ago
Two.. not like you could actually buy one.
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      01-21-2023, 07:59 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PLF69 View Post
I have no freaking clue what really is a E46 CSL, I never drove one, never seen one (in the flesh) and it will probably never happen because this damn car is non existent in North America, can we please stop comparing cars to it 20 years later.

I have a hard time understanding how they want the M4 CSL to be louder, maybe they are starting to become deaf from driving the GT4RS cause the CSL is freakin loud vs the regular M4 !
Quote:
Originally Posted by PLF69 View Post
Two.. not like you could actually buy one.
True, but I was responding to the car not being existent
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