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      08-14-2021, 04:54 AM   #1
PhJ
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G82 M4 Manual vs F82 M4 Manual: Acceleration Battle - a Technical Analysis

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Most BMW M fans have been waiting for the first driving reviews of the brand-new BMW M3 G80 and M4 G82 during very long long months before the end of the embargo. It was finally lifted about five months ago, on March 9 Th at 6 PM at which time a huge wave of videos on the BMW new stars have been released. And most of the reviews, if not all of them, have been full of praise.

The story of the new G80 and G82 did not start however smoothly, to say the least. The first controversy was raised by the design of the famous kidney grille. Many were skeptical when they saw the first pictures of the front of the new M3 and M4. Fortunately, most of them changed their mind when they saw the car in person.

The second controversy was uncovered when the weight of the G8x was released. It gave me a hell of a shock to find out that, according to the official claimed EU weights, the new M4 G80 MT was 203 kg heavier than its predecessor, the M4 F82 MT. It turned out that the rules to measure the EU weight were more permissive until recently, leading to unrealistic low car EU weights six years ago for all the cars, including the M4 F82 MT and its competitors like the Alfa Giulia QV (thanks a lot to CanAutM3 for having pointed this out). In real life, the true weight increase from F82 MT to G82 MT is in fact 108 kg (if you do not tick the 16,000 € M Race Track Pack option, with an additional weight saving of 25 kg) as measured by the Auto Motor und Sport German magazine. The weight increase of 108 kg is still a lot but it is much lower than 203 kg! After those controversies, it was time to switch to the outcome of the first test drives of the new G8x.

Many test drive videos have been released for the flagship G8x Competition but much less for the base models with the manual transmission (MT) as G8x base models are not imported in several countries (such as France and England for instance).

I am a stick shift (or MT) fan. I love the driver interaction with the stick shift and the clutch pedal as well as the control on the gear change process (slow or quick and at any rpm) and above all, I like the engine power interruption when shifting, followed by the engine full torque recovery which pushes your back on the seat after each gear shift. A pure driving pleasure and fun. I warmly thanks BMW for still providing some M cars with a stick shift !

I was therefore looking for a test drive review of either a M3 G80 MT or a M4 G82 MT base model. I was particularly interested in the acceleration of the base model and how this compares to the outgoing corresponding model. Videos rarely provide detailed information on this subject. I finally looked at car paper magazines and found what I was looking for in the Auto Motor und Sport (AM&S) magazine of April, 8 2021 and in the Sport Auto (SA) German magazine of May 2021. These two German magazines tested the same car (with the same plate number): a Toronto red BMW M4 G82 MT with the optional M Race track Pack (with a weight saving of 25 kg). AM&S reported accelerations from 0 up to 200 Km/h whereas SA reported in-gear accelerations from 80 to 120 km/h and from 80 to 160 km/h.

Interestingly, AM&S tested the M4 F82 MT, back in 2014 and recently its successor, the new M4 G82 MT. They weighed (full tank) the F82 MT in 2014 and the new G82 MT in 2021: 1592 kg for the F82 MT versus 1675 kg for the M4 G82 MT with the M Race track Pack. The G82 MT is therefore at the best 83 kg heavier than the F82 MT and more realistically 108 kg heavier without the expensive M race Track Pack including the beautiful carbon bucket seats (-10kg), the carbon ceramic brakes (-13 kg) and light weight rims (-3 kg), for a total weight saving of 25 kg. I guess that most drivers will not tick that expensive pack option, except those driving their car regularly on track and/or having fallen in love with those beautiful carbon seats (but with a not so easy way to get in or out).

Yes, the new G82 MT is nevertheless a heavy car. Does this weight affect the handling? It looks like BMW did a very good job as the driver does not really notice the increased weight: the agility and handling of the G82 are great. The impact of this extra weight on the fuel consumption? Hardly any impact. The increased efficiency of the engine S58 over the S55 seems to have more than overcome the car additional weight. The mean fuel consumption of the G82 MT during the test drive by AM&S was 10.8 l/100 km versus 11.5 l/100 km for the F82 MT in 2014. Joe Achille managed even to reach 38 UK mpg (7.5 l/100 km) when cruising at 70 MPH (112 km/h) in a G82 Competition, which, to be fair, has a much taller final gear ratio than the G82 MT. The braking of the G82 MT is also very good, and much better than on the F82. So, in the end, everything is perfect, isn’t? Not quite if you examine the acceleration figures below.[/CENTER]

F82 MT vs G82 MT : 0 - 200 km/h acceleration figures


Note: * without the M race Track Pack

The acceleration figures from 0 up to 200 km/h are better for the F82 MT and this, despite a lower power (431 PS vs 480 PS), a lower traction potential, a lower Power/Weight ratio (0.27 vs 0.29) and the G82 engine feeling more than 480 PS powerful (comment made by Misha testing the same Toronto red G82 on the Nürburgring – video
). The higher the speed, the bigger the difference in performance: from max 0.2 sec difference up to 100 km/h, the gap increases to 0.4-0.5 sec from 130 till 200 km/h. This may be partly due to a better aerodynamic value (CdA) for the F82 MT (lower is better). CdA (coefficient of drag times frontal surface area) figures for F82 and G82 have been retrieved from the www.automobile-catalog.com web site. A lower CdA value means a lower air resistance. This is particularly important at high speeds as the air resistance is proportional to CdA and to the square of the speed. In other words, a slightly higher CdA for a car increases the car air resistance much more at high speeds than at low speeds.

Distance travelled by G82 MT and F82 MT to accelerate from 0 to 200 km/h

We uncovered that the old F82 MT accelerates better than the new G82 MT and by how many tenths of a second. To better represent what this means in practice, let’s compute approximately the distance D(ti) covered by both cars from standstill till they hit every intermediate speed (see the below speed vs time table).
The distance D(ti) travelled by a car from standstill till the time ti is the definite integral of the car speed S(t) over the time limits 0 and ti.





When enough data points (time, speed) are available to describe the speed curve, which is the case here (8 data points between 0 and 200 km/h), this definite integral can be approximated using the trapezoidal rule (as integral= area between the curve and the x-axis).



Initial condition: travelled distance D1 is 0 meter at standstill (index i = 1 , Speed S1 = 0 , time t1 =0).
You will find below the tables featuring all the travelled distances computed with the above formula.



As shown in the above tables, the F82 MT needs 471 m to reach 200 km/h whereas the G82 MT needs 485 m, namely 14 meters more than the F82 MT, in fact three G82 MT car lengths difference.

By how many meters is G82 MT lagging behind F82 MT when F82 MT reaches 200 km/h ?

We know that the F82 MT reaches 200 km/h in 13.6 sec versus 14.1 sec for the G82 MT. We can estimate the distance covered by the G82 MT after 13.6 sec via a linear interpolation between the 353 m covered after 11.6 sec and the 485 m covered after 14.1 sec.



After 13.6 sec the G82 MT has therefore covered 459 m versus 471 m for the F82 MT reaching 200 km/h at that time. The G82 MT is therefore lagging approximately 12 m behind the F82 MT when the latter reaches 200 km/h, namely about two and half car (G82 MT) lengths.

¼ mile drag race simulation: G82 MT vs F82 MT

¼ mile is 402.3 m which is lower than the distance needed by both cars (F82 & G82 MT) to reach 200 km/h. We can therefore estimate the time needed to cross the ¼ mile finish line for both cars by a linear interpolation between the times needed to cover the lower and upper distances closest to ¼ mile from the acceleration tables. The F82 MT needs 12.3 sec to cross the ¼ mile finish line versus 12.5 sec for the G82 MT.

Via an additional interpolation, we can estimate the distance covered by the G82 MT after 12.3 sec, the time needed by the F82 MT to cross the ¼ mile finish line: 390 m. The G82 MT is therefore 12.3 m (≈ 2.5 car lengths) behind the F82 MT when the latter is crossing the ¼ mile finish line.



The June 2021 edition of Sport Auto paper French magazine recorded a ¼ mile drag race for the G82 Competition (11.6 sec & 199 km/h). This is much much faster than both the F82 MT (12.3 sec & 189 km/h) and the G82 MT (12.5 sec & 187 km/h). The G82 Comp crosses the ¼ mile finish line with a speed of 199 km/h versus 187 km/h for the G82 MT and 189 km/h for the F82 MT. This is a huge difference.

Performance gap between standard (MT) and Competition (AT)

As shown below on a snapshot of a video posted on Bimmerpost, the F80 Competition DCT accelerates hardly better than the F82 MT from 0 to 100 km/h (4.1 sec vs 4.2 sec) and from 0 to 200 km/h (13.46 sec vs 13.6 sec). The performance difference between the G8x Competition (ZF) and the G8x MT is much more impressive: 0-100 km/h in 3.77 sec (G80 Comp) vs 4.3 sec (G82 MT), and 0-200 km/h in 11.86 sec (G80 Comp) vs 14.1 sec (G82 MT).





The acceleration detailed figures for the G82 Competition have recently been published in the Auto Bild magazine release of June 2021. They are compared below to the acceleration figures for the G82 MT reported by AM&S.

As shown above, the performance increase from G8x MT to G8x Comp is spectacular. This big difference can be attributed to the combination of several factors such as:
- G8x Comp is more powerful (510 PS vs 480 PS) and has a much higher max torque ( 650 Nm vs 550 Nm) and is only 5 kg heavier than the G8x MT, leading to better power/weight and torque to weight ratios.
- Gear changes are faster with an auto gear box than with a stick shift.
- shorter gear ratios for the G8x Comp which has an 8 speeds auto gear box versus 6 speeds for the manual transmission of the G8x MT (details are given for in-gear accelerations below).

This big difference in performance between the G8x MT and the G8x Comp has been confirmed by Martin (AutoTopNL) in a YouTube video published on May 22, 2021. Interestingly, the tested G80 MT belongs to the test driver, Martin, whose car had slightly more than 2000 km, the break-in being just completed. AutoTopNL compared directly Martin’s G80 MT on the road to a G80 Competition. Martin felt his G80 MT has more than the claimed 480 PS, which was confirmed on the dyno: 503 PS with a narrow peak torque of 607 Nm at +- 2500 rpm. The G80 Competition they compared it to was also measured on the same dyno: 546 PS and 703 Nm at +- 2850 rpm. As usual, the claimed power & torque figures are underestimated at BMW. The point here is that both vehicles (G80 MT and G80 Comp) have a very good engine exceeding the claimed power & torque figures. They are therefore good samples for the comparison between the G8x MT and G8x Competition models. That being said, Martin (AutoTopNL) said in the video that the performance increase from his G80 MT to the G80 Comp is very, very big.

F82 MT vs G82 MT : 80 -120 km/h in-gear acceleration figures

The in-gear acceleration figures show how fast a car accelerates at moderate speeds on high gears, without any gear downshift. In-gear accelerations do not suffer from grip issues regularly encountered by RWD powerful cars on drag races and are therefore more reliable and reproduceable. The faster the car accelerates under these conditions, the more rewarding it will be, the more pleasant & easy the driving will be and the less often the driver will have to shift to a lower gear for a strong overtaking or for a punchy acceleration after a slow down, no need neither to downshift to a lower gear to hold the car speed when cruising on a highway during hill climbing for instance.

Turbo engines with a high torque at low revs do usually shine during in-gear accelerations. Naturally aspirated engines (NA) do suffer in these tests. The below torque & power graphs of the M3 E92 engine (V8, 4.0 L, NA), the M4 F82 MT and M4 G82 MT turbo engines (inline 6, 3.0 L, turbo) illustrate this statement. The power & torque levels of the two turbo 3.0 L engines at low to medium revs are in another league than those of the NA 4.0 L engine of the E92. However, the NA 4.0 L engine shines at high revs, with a never-ending power delivery ramp up to nearly 8500 rpm with a fascinating engine sound note. However, how often do you rev your engine above 6000 rpm? You do it mainly on occasional race track sessions but more rarely in daily driving, I believe.



The comparison of in-gear accelerations makes sense for cars having both a very similar speed at 1000 rpm in the various gears. This is the case for the F82 MT and the G82 MT which have the same gear ratios as well as the same final drive ratio. The only minor difference between the two vehicles is a slightly different wheel diameter. Below is the speed at 1000 rpm in the 4-5-6 gears for both vehicles (information retrieved from the website www.automobile-catalog.com).



The below in-gear measured accelerations for G82 MT have been retrieved from the Sport Auto German Magazine edition of 5/2021 whereas the F82 MT measured data are from the website www.zeperfs.com.


Note (*): It has to be mentioned that in the above table, the 80-160 km/h in-gear accelerations have been retrieved from the site ZePerfs for a F80 MT (data not available for a F82 MT). This should not be an issue as both the F80 MT and the F82 MT have the same claimed performance and the same gear ratios.

The 80-120 and 80-160 km/h in-gear accelerations are much better for the previous generation F82 MT model than for the brand-new G82 MT. This was expected considering the caracteristics of the two cars shown in the below table: what counts for in-gear acceleration is the torque level & curve shape, the revs at which the max. torque occurs, the bandwidth of the max. torque and the torque to weight ratio: all these figures are more favorable for the F82 MT. It is well known that the new S58 engine in the G8x shines more at high revs than at low revs but has a serious tuning potential for high power delivery.



The deficit of torque at low revs on the G82 MT (combined with the taller gear ratios) is also mentioned by Schmee in his Yourtube video published on May 27, 2021, entitled : “Is the New BMW M4 Better with a Manual Gear Box ? Nurburgring test Lap”. Schmee says at the end of this video :
“in term of the drive, one thing I significantly have noticed here (during the Nordschleife lap), as opposed to the Competion which has 100 Nm of torque more, is when you exit a corner, you don’t see this when I was driving (on open roads I guess) let’s say you are in third gear because you needed it through a corner, when you exit, you are waiting that little bit longer than you want to be for the power to arrive, the torque to arrive until you get higher in the rev range.”

The increased torque of 100 Nm for the G8x Comp versus the G8x MT is reinforced by the shorter gear ratios on the G8x Comp as shown below : when the driver accelerates in gear 4 on G8x MT, it is roughly equivalent to accelerations in gear 5 on G8x Competition. It is therefore more likely that the engine will run less often at low revs (lest’s say below 2500 rpm) with the G8x Comp than with the G8x MT, amplifying the torque difference between the two vehicles.



Below are the gear speed diagrams for the G82 MT and the G82 Competition respectively ( graphs picked up from the automobile-catalog web site).




You will notice the strange gear ratio distribution for the G82 Comp : gear 1 and 2 are not much different (this may explain why the launch control on G82 Comp starts in gear 2 and not in gear 1), same remark for gears 3 and 4. There is however a big gap between gears 5 and 6 and the gears 7 and 8 are really tall. There is there room for improvement, I think.

Here is the comparison of in-gear accélerations for G82 MT vs F82 MT vs G82 Comp.



When comparing the G80 Competion to his G80 MT in the Youtube video ” BMW M3 G80 Manual vs competition” by AutoTopNL , Martin (the owner of the G80 MT), says: Jesus Christ, this thing (G80 Comp) is a weapon. The torque is unbelievable compared to mine (the G80 MT). This confirms the stronger in-gear accelerations of G82 Comp compared to G82 MT.

The G82 Comp in gear 5 has also faster in-gear accelerations than the F82 MT in the equivalent gear 4 for, both cars revving at roughly 2550 rpm at 80 km/h, the S58 engine of the G82 Comp producing nearly his max. torque, 100 Nm more potent than the F82 S55 engine. The story is different at lower revs.

Despite the 650 Nm of torque for the G8x Competition, in his early July YouTube video entitled ¨My honest 3500 Mile Verdict! BMW M3 Competition G80”, Joe Achilles points this out:
“ My final negative (about the G80 C) is to do with the S58 engine. Brilliant as it is, it does suffer from the lack of low-end torque.
And I did talk about that in my X3M Competition video about two years ago. That is the first BMW to house this rather brilliant engine and I thought that in the lighter M3 and M4, you wouldn’t notice that lack of low-end torque, where in fact it has been really a time on this trip, two up and load the luggage. If you caught napping, just below 2500 rpm, it really struggles to get on boost and actually you feel like you get absolutely no power and no torque. Example, coming out here (note: Joe is alone in the G80 C), I am at 1500 rpm, now 1600, my foot on the floor and there is absolutely nothing happening. Slowly, that’s 2000 and still it hasn’t come on boost. It is about 2.3, 2.4 when it starts picking up. The B58, which this engine is modeled on, would never dream of doing that. That is a torque monster, that engine (personal note: the S55 in F80 is also a torque monster). It reminds me of a six cylinders 3-liter BMW diesel engine the way that thing picks up the torque. But this, it really does suffer and I know a lot of you, diehards out there, saying yeah but you want that in an M engine, you want to rev it out all the time and that is kind of true but it is just amazing how little there is below about 2200 rpm. There is literally nothing and it does catch you out.

Is the remark of Joe Achille for the G80 Comp valid also for the G80 MT? To find it out, let’s compare the torque curves measured by AutoTopNL for the G80 MT and Comp models on the same dyno and reported in their YouTube video entitled ‘True Power of the BMW M3 G80 Competition by AutoTopNL’. In the AutoTopNL video, the torque curves are drawn on separate graphs with different scales which makes the comparison not easy. I took the torque values at every 100 rpm from 1500 rpm till 3500 rpm for both vehicles and drew the curves on one graph, one scale. The resulting curves are somehow surprising as shown below:



Below 2100 rpm, the G80 MT torque curve is below the one of the Comp model. Joe Achille’s remark about the G80 Comp “ it is just amazing how little there is below about 2200 rpm” should therefore be even worse for the G80 MT. Looking at the torque figures however, the ‘how little torque there is below 2200 rpm’ does not really show up as about 440 Nm are measured at 2000 rpm, which is far from being ‘very low’. Does the torque curve vary from engine to engine more than expected? Maybe.

From 2100 rpm till 2600 rpm, the G80 MT has more torque than the Competition model which has a more abrupt and higher torque peak later on, at about 2800 rpm.

Above 2700 rpm, the G80 Comp is shining with a torque value much higher than on the G80 MT.

G80 MT max torque is 550 Nm from 2650 till 6130 rpm versus 650 Nm from 2750 till 5500 rpm. Also to be noticed is the max torque bandwidth which is broader for the MT (3480 rpm) than for the Comp (2750 rpm). The power delivery should therefore be somehow more rewarding at high revs for the MT. This is confirmed on the power curves measured by AutoTpNL showing a decline of power earlier at high revs for the Comp model than for the MT.

Conclusions

It is very nice that BMW still provides G8x models with a manual gear box: THANK YOU, BMW! It is however unfortunate, especially for a M car, that the latest G82 MT shows lower acceleration figures than its predecessor, the F82 MT. The deficit is serious for in-gear accelerations. In contrast, the new G82 Comp is much more performant than its predecessor, the F82 Comp DCT, which is what you expect from a brand-new model. As Martin ( AutoTopNL, owner of a G80 MT) says at the end of the YouTube video ‘BMW M3 G80, Manual vs Competition’:
“To conclude, there is a very very big difference between the (G80) non Competition and the (G80) Competition as we already suspected when we hit the dyno, but in real live, the difference is maybe even bigger when it comes to performance. When it comes to driving fun, driving engagement, which I think should be the main thing with the M3, the manual is the way to go.”

In the meantime, Martin (AutoTopNL), released a few days ago another video entitled “Tuning my BMW M3 G80 6MT with @RaceChip by AutoTop…”. In this video, he says that he wants to tune his G80 MT because the G80 Comp is a lot faster… So the G8x driving engagement & fun is higher with the manual transmission, he had said, but he would nevertheless prefer his G8x MT with a punchier engine as he decided to tune the engine of his car. Martin is however concerned about the gear box & clutch which may not bear the increased power & torque. I fully agree with him. Anyway, Martin has requested RaceChip to tune the engine of his G80 MT and the measured power and torque figures showed the high tuning potential of the S58 engine: 650 PS and 750 Nm were measured on the dyno after tuning! Eventhough Martin did not notice any issue when driving his G80 MT after tuning, who knows if he will not face reliability issues with the gear box and/or the clutch?

The performance of a M car is however not limited to the acceleration figures. Concerning other aspects such as for instance, the handling, grip, damping, steering precision, predictable behavior, body control, traction (for a RWD) and braking, the new G8x (MT or Comp) is by far superior to its predecessor. This is particularly true for the handling on uneven roads (e.g. on typical British B roads) on which the G8x is shining, being remarkably composed & stable and with an excellent body control and a much more predictable and progressive behavior than the F8x. The G8x is also faster on race circuits and I am convinced that it will outperform the F8x on the Nürburgring circuit, G8x lap times being surprisingly not yet available.

In the meantime, the Nürburgring lap time of the G82 Comp has just been released by Auto Sport and posted in Bimmerpost on August 5, 2021: 7 min 30,79 sec. This is an amazing lap time, confirming the excellent chassis of the new G8x and the engine capability of the Competition version. Special thanks to the excellent driver, Christian Gebhardt and to the optional PSC2 tires. It would be interesting to get the lap time with the standard PS4S tires.

Before the upcoming deployment of boring autonomous driving cars and of exclusively ‘fully’ electrical cars, we may hope that BMW will release a last G8x MT model combining fun, emotion and engagement of the manual transmission with the power & torque of (at least) the Competition model and an improved low-end torque (via maybe a 48-volt mild hybrid set up). I know that the latest leaked info mentions a M4 G82 CSL with 540 PS and only available with an auto gear box. I initially thought that BMW would have to develop a new manual gear box and/or a stronger clutch to handle a bigger torque but the last spy video of the 2022 M3 G80 CS ( https://g80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1831276) shows a masked G80 (CS ?) with no doubt a manual transmission, indicating that BMW may already have the adequate manual gear box and associated clutch. But is it really a G80 CS ? Such a G80 CS MT would most likely fill our wishes, but will it launched and will its price be affordable? It is not forbidden to dream, is it?

PhJ

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      08-14-2021, 08:27 AM   #2
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I appreciate all the work you put into this. But my add is on overdrive and I'm not going to read this.

Can someone put a tldr?
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      08-14-2021, 09:54 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modat View Post
I appreciate all the work you put into this. But my add is on overdrive and I'm not going to read this.

Can someone put a tldr?
TLDR G80 is tuned to work better in comp spec with auto. G80 is a little slower than F80 with manual as well. We still like stickshifts though.
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      08-14-2021, 10:11 AM   #4
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I appreciate the analysis, but I think most G80 6MT buyers are more interested in the driving experience afforded by a three-pedal interface, and less concerned about lap times/shaving tenths. Anyone chasing numbers should just stick to the M3C and call it a day.

Like you said, let's just give BMW credit for still offering a stick in this day and age.
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      08-14-2021, 10:31 AM   #5
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A very lengthy analysis with a flawed starting point, rendering it entirely useless. You cannot make such conclusions based on single data points. Using C&D as a reference, the G82 MT is quite faster in acceleration than the F82 MT. When the F82 crosses the 1/4 mile line, the G82 is awhopping ~21m/71ft ahead using those samples.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...ested-review/#
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-the-numbers/

Different test conditions can lead to rather big discrepancies in the results, this why it is flawed to draw definitive conclusions on a single sample. The correct way to compare empirical results is to average several test samples of each car and compare the averaged results of each car between them.

Further, you are underestmating the weight benefit of the CCB on the G82. It is more in the ~21kg range than the 13kg you quote.
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      08-15-2021, 09:21 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
A very lengthy analysis with a flawed starting point, rendering it entirely useless. You cannot make such conclusions based on single data points. Using C&D as a reference, the G82 MT is quite faster in acceleration than the F82 MT. When the F82 crosses the 1/4 mile line, the G82 is awhopping ~21m/71ft ahead using those samples.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...ested-review/#
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-the-numbers/

Different test conditions can lead to rather big discrepancies in the results, this why it is flawed to draw definitive conclusions on a single sample. The correct way to compare empirical results is to average several test samples of each car and compare the averaged results of each car between them.

Further, you are underestmating the weight benefit of the CCB on the G82. It is more in the ~21kg range than the 13kg you quote.
Even the driver could be the difference...not talking about skill per se, there's a 40kg difference between Richard Hammond and Jeremy Clarkson. Even that's worth a tenth... :-)
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      08-15-2021, 09:28 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
A very lengthy analysis with a flawed starting point, rendering it entirely useless. You cannot make such conclusions based on single data points. Using C&D as a reference, the G82 MT is quite faster in acceleration than the F82 MT. When the F82 crosses the 1/4 mile line, the G82 is awhopping ~21m/71ft ahead using those samples.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...ested-review/#
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-the-numbers/

Different test conditions can lead to rather big discrepancies in the results, this why it is flawed to draw definitive conclusions on a single sample. The correct way to compare empirical results is to average several test samples of each car and compare the averaged results of each car between them.

Further, you are underestmating the weight benefit of the CCB on the G82. It is more in the ~21kg range than the 13kg you quote.
I think the one thing that holds true would be the top gear 30-50 and 50-70 numbers. It does seem like the G series needs to build boost for a little longer before it picks up.
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      08-15-2021, 09:36 AM   #8
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Appreciate the effort & analysis but I'll wait for a couple of carwow tests to put this into practice
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      08-15-2021, 09:45 AM   #9
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I also think their is another conclusion here about the comp: if you do a lot of highway driving or roll-races, the gear ratios in the comp are way better. If you were in the comp cruising at 65 MPH you could drop to 3rd and still have the top of the rev range whereas in the stick you are going to drop to about 4500 RPM. Dropping to 3rd in the stick is the equivalent of dropping to 4th in the comp.
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      08-15-2021, 10:14 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKParris View Post
I think the one thing that holds true would be the top gear 30-50 and 50-70 numbers. It does seem like the G series needs to build boost for a little longer before it picks up.
Yes, definitely. Since the G8X and F8X 6MT share exact same gear ratios, it shows that the S58 has a higher boost threshold than the S55. This is to be expected as the greater power was mainly achieved through bigger turbos and a lower compression ratio.
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      08-15-2021, 10:59 AM   #11
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Thank you, BMW, for making MT cars. Please don’t ever stop.
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      08-15-2021, 12:07 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Yes, definitely. Since the G8X and F8X 6MT share exact same gear ratios, it shows that the S58 has a higher boost threshold than the S55. This is to be expected as the greater power was mainly achieved through bigger turbos and a lower compression ratio.
I actually kind of like that because as C/D found, in the comp at 75mph you can stay out of boost and get 32mpg.

Ill take a small penalty on top gear passing to get that kind of mpg in a 500 hp car. If i want to pass faster ill just drop a gear down.
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      08-16-2021, 11:39 PM   #13
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Thank you for such a thorough, thoughtful, and detailed write up! Love the technical data ��
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      08-17-2021, 12:07 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
A very lengthy analysis with a flawed starting point, rendering it entirely useless. You cannot make such conclusions based on single data points. Using C&D as a reference, the G82 MT is quite faster in acceleration than the F82 MT. When the F82 crosses the 1/4 mile line, the G82 is awhopping ~21m/71ft ahead using those samples.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...ested-review/#
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-the-numbers/

Different test conditions can lead to rather big discrepancies in the results, this why it is flawed to draw definitive conclusions on a single sample. The correct way to compare empirical results is to average several test samples of each car and compare the averaged results of each car between them.

Further, you are underestmating the weight benefit of the CCB on the G82. It is more in the ~21kg range than the 13kg you quote.
Hold on… is this a joke?

The Car and Driver test results show EXACTLY what OP said. The F82 has the advantage over the G82 using your suggested data.

F82 6MT vs G82 6MT
5-60: 4.6 vs 4.7
30-50: 6.7 vs 7.6
50-7: 5.0 vs 6.4
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      08-17-2021, 04:21 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F82KPowers View Post
Hold on… is this a joke?

The Car and Driver test results show EXACTLY what OP said. The F82 has the advantage over the G82 using your suggested data.

F82 6MT vs G82 6MT
5-60: 4.6 vs 4.7
30-50: 6.7 vs 7.6
50-7: 5.0 vs 6.4
yeah, in the top gear. what did you expect with the different tune of the S58?
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      08-17-2021, 04:41 AM   #16
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I've got the B58 now, but the S58 is coming.... I know that the torque will "enter" a bit higher, but guys.....we all know it is a different engine. It delivers the maximum torque when the B58 start suffers. It's a different way to deliver it. The B58 is more a diesel/like engine for an everyday driving, so low revs, traffic, etc. It must be really elastic very soon on the rpm range. The S58 is something different that can be used also on a track, so that's why it starts deliver the torque a bit later. It's more a "racing ispired" engine. But we cannot say that "you floor the pedal and nothing happens", because you cannot have a torque pic from 1.5k to 7k rpm. is nearly impossibile with these engine outputs. To have this, you must have a completely different philosophy of engine development.
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      08-17-2021, 05:16 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorp!on View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by F82KPowers View Post
Hold on… is this a joke?

The Car and Driver test results show EXACTLY what OP said. The F82 has the advantage over the G82 using your suggested data.

F82 6MT vs G82 6MT
5-60: 4.6 vs 4.7
30-50: 6.7 vs 7.6
50-7: 5.0 vs 6.4
yeah, in the top gear. what did you expect with the different tune of the S58?
Based on the above response I expected, "the G82 MT is quite faster in acceleration than the F82 MT," but then I read the reference material and found some caveats
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      08-17-2021, 06:47 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F82KPowers View Post
Based on the above response I expected, "the G82 MT is quite faster in acceleration than the F82 MT," but then I read the reference material and found some caveats
Put the G82 in the right gear, and it will pull on the F82.

But as I posted previously, the S58 has a higher boost threshold than the S55, so at low RPM, the S55 has the advantage.
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      08-17-2021, 08:26 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F82KPowers View Post
Based on the above response I expected, "the G82 MT is quite faster in acceleration than the F82 MT," but then I read the reference material and found some caveats
as CanAutM3 already mentioned they both have the same gear ration and the S58 has a (quiet much) higher boost threshold.
Of course the S55 is quicker in the highest gear, the boost comes earlier.

If you drive both out and drive them high rev the G80/G82 will let the F8x behind by quiet a margin.

Im quiet suprised that people still don't understand the differences between these 2 engines...
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      08-17-2021, 10:20 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorp!on View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by F82KPowers View Post
Based on the above response I expected, "the G82 MT is quite faster in acceleration than the F82 MT," but then I read the reference material and found some caveats
as CanAutM3 already mentioned they both have the same gear ration and the S58 has a (quiet much) higher boost threshold.
Of course the S55 is quicker in the highest gear, the boost comes earlier.

If you drive both out and drive them high rev the G80/G82 will let the F8x behind by quiet a margin.

Im quiet suprised that people still don't understand the differences between these 2 engines...
I just find the technical details quite interesting is all.

Details can be fun
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      08-17-2021, 10:28 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NightWriter View Post
I appreciate the analysis, but I think most G80 6MT buyers are more interested in the driving experience afforded by a three-pedal interface, and less concerned about lap times/shaving tenths. Anyone chasing numbers should just stick to the M3C and call it a day.

Like you said, let's just give BMW credit for still offering a stick in this day and age.
If someone asked me on the day I got my car (Memorial Day) what the 0-60 time was, I couldn't have told them. The weight I knew, and I had an idea of the gear ratios, but the 0-60 was the least important thing to me. Still is.
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      08-17-2021, 11:10 AM   #22
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It's too bad they're so insanely ugly, hopefully next generation or an LCI or even a reputable aftermarket option fixes that and we still get the manual. The weight is hard to ignore as well
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