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      12-29-2020, 06:38 PM   #1
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BMW Teams With Ford on Solid State Pouch Batteries

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BMW Teams With Ford on Solid State Pouch Batteries
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Via Cleantechnica

Solid State Batteries — They’re Everywhere! They’re Everywhere

Suddenly, solid state batteries — the technology that is supposed to give us lower priced electric vehicles with more range and faster charging times — are like Chicken Man. They’re everywhere! They’re everywhere! Conventional lithium-ion batteries use a semi-liquid electrolyte between the anode and the cathode. That electrolyte can catch fire or explode if it gets too hot or if the battery is punctured.

Solid state batteries replace the semi-liquid electrolyte with a solid substance that is far more tolerant of high heat and less susceptible to damage in the event of a collision. In the lab, they have a higher energy density, can charge faster, and weigh less than traditional lithium-ion batteries. Not only do they cost less, they may require simpler, less costly cooling systems and could allow automakers to dispense with the heavy, bank vault quality safety cages used today to prevent damage to traction batteries in the event of a collision. Those two factors alone could lower the cost of manufacturing electric vehicles, making them affordable for more drivers.

There is theory and then there is reality. What works in the lab may not translate easily to commercial production. As high tech as today’s battery cells are, the manufacturing process used to make them harks back to the days of 8-tracks and cassettes. The machines that apply the semi-liquid electrolyte for battery cells today trace their origins to the roll-to-roll machines that applied a ferric oxide coating to plastic tape. Any new product that employs existing manufacturing techniques has a higher likelihood of success than one that requires all the old production equipment be scrapped and replaced with new machines.

So far this week — and it’s only Friday — there are announcements from Ford, BMW, Toyota, and Solid Power claiming solid state battery technology is just around the corner. Here’s the latest.

Ford/BMW Collaboration With Solid Power

Name:  Solid-Power-solid-state-battery.jpg
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Pictured: 22-layer, 20Ah all solid-state lithium metal cell compared to the company’s first-generation 10-layer, 2Ah cell.

Over the past several years, both Ford and BMW have invested in Colorado based Solid Power. In a press release dated December 10, the company said it is now producing 20 amp-hour (Ah) multi-layer solid state lithium metal batteries. The 330 Wh/kg, 22-layer cells have higher energy density than any commercially available lithium-ion battery manufactured today according to the company. It says it expects its batteries to exceed 400 Wh/kg by 2022.

That’s great news, but here’s the exciting part. Solid Power solid state cells can be manufactured at commercial scale using industry standard lithium-ion roll-to-roll production equipment. The 20 Ah cells are currently being validated by Solid Power’s automotive partners, including Ford and BMW. Other investors in the company include Hyundai, Volta Energy, Solvay, and Samsung. Solid Power has already shipped more than 400 prototype solid state cells to external parties for independent performance validation and expects to begin the formal automotive qualification process with even larger capacity solid state battery cells in early 2022.

“Solid Power has shown that our all solid state cell design can be produced using scalable processes on industry standard lithium ion equipment, and early multi-layer prototype cells using a highly conservative cell design have already exceeded the energy performance of today’s lithium ion cells,” says CEO and co-founder Doug Campbell. “Proof of successful scale-up is key to realizing the potential of any next generation battery technology, which is why lithium ion roll to roll compatibility has been our mission since day one.”

Here are some specs for you to consider:
  • -10° C operation
  • 50% fast charge in 15 minutes at room temperature
  • Separator thickness as low as 25 microns

When it comes to battery life, the company says its solid state cells are capable of continuous discharge rates of up to 5C. Its early 10-layer 2 Ah pouch cells are showing stable early cycling at near room temperature while the corresponding double layer pouch cells have already surpassed 250 stable cycles. Further advancements are anticipated. The transition of the company’s new electrolytes, binders, and electrode designs to the continuous roll to roll production line will result in improvements to specific energy, energy density, cycle life, and charge rates and culminate in a full scale cell demonstration by the end of 2021.

“Solid Power is proving that an all solid-state platform can excel in environments ranging from below freezing to 70°C with an inherently safer chemistry that is free of flammable liquids or gels,” said Josh Buettner-Garrett, the company’s Chief Technology Officer. “Solid Power has now demonstrated feasibility of large format cells produced on the same equipment used for conventional lithium ion and we are excited to push the performance further as we move toward automotive qualification.”

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      12-29-2020, 07:28 PM   #2
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Exciting stuff.
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      12-30-2020, 09:10 AM   #3
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Battery advancements are always welcome.

However, I won't typically be charging at room temperature so that's not particularly useful information to me. I’d like to see real world numbers when charging at around 30°F.
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      12-30-2020, 09:29 AM   #4
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I think this is a fairly exciting prospect as a step toward safer, smaller, more efficient batteries and battery surogates.
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      12-30-2020, 09:31 AM   #5
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As an owner of both BMW and Ford vehicles, it'ss cool to see these brands partnering on this endeavor. The future is going to be rad!
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      12-30-2020, 09:31 AM   #6
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Progress is good, collaboration is great.

FYI -10C = 14F, lots of places in the US where this might be an issue at times. I am sure additional progress will be made on this aspect.

Smaller packaging=less weight. Less weight=better handling. I am all for less weight.
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      12-30-2020, 09:50 AM   #7
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I don't understand the battery temperature/charging issue, if the battery needs to be at 14F, just put it in a box with minimal amount of heat tracing? I just plugged it in, a small part of the power could go to keeping the battery at optimum temperature and getting a box to 14F isn't very difficult even if it starts at -20F (raising it 34 degrees). A toaster oven can take a box from room temperature to 400 degrees in minutes (raising the temperature 330 degrees).
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      12-30-2020, 09:52 AM   #8
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      12-30-2020, 10:19 AM   #9
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But-but we were told BMW and traditional automotive manufacturers waited too long and they'd never catch up to Tesla's battery technology. :bs:

I guess the question now is can Tesla catch up to the legacy brands with suspension, braking, steering, body fit and finish, etc..
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      12-30-2020, 10:22 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog Face Pony Soldier View Post
But-but we were told BMW and traditional automotive manufacturers waited too long and they'd never catch up to Tesla's battery technology. :bs:

I guess the question now is can Tesla catch up to the legacy brands with suspension, braking, steering, body fit and finish, etc..
First, nobody with any sense said that it was impossible to catch up with Tesla, only that they have a good head start. Second, they are making batteries in a lab.
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      12-30-2020, 10:34 AM   #11
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"It says it expects its batteries to exceed 400 Wh/kg by 2022"

The 400 Wh/kg level would be 54% higher than roughly 260 Wh/kg that Tesla is using today.
EVs would not weigh that much then, even when having huge battery packs:

75 kWh battery at 400 Wh/kg: 188 kg of cells (compared to 288 kg now)
100 kWh battery at 400 Wh/kg: 250 kg of cells (compared to 384 kg now)
150 kWh battery at 400 Wh/kg: 375 kg of cells (compared to 577 kg now)
200 kWh battery at 400 Wh/kg: 500 kg of cells (compared to 770 kg now)
https://insideevs.com/news/440727/el...cells-not-far/

Lightweight battery packs = better performing and lower cost (other things being equal)
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      12-30-2020, 10:43 AM   #12
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Excellent progress.

Getting the weight down is the real key. I'd take current ranges with considerable less weight...and less wait-ing too to charge.
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      12-30-2020, 10:44 AM   #13
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This would be a huge step forward in battery tech, but this article is a little misleading. Most companies are just rolling out prototypes in 2021. You won't be seeing this in a mass produced EV until the latter half of the decade.

In the meantime, Tesla will continue to build market share since they lead the way in LI battery tech. Since they already partner with Panasonic I'm sure solid state is something they would pivot to when ready.
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      12-30-2020, 11:12 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PackPride85 View Post
This would be a huge step forward in battery tech, but this article is a little misleading. Most companies are just rolling out prototypes in 2021. You won't be seeing this in a mass produced EV until the latter half of the decade.

In the meantime, Tesla will continue to build market share since they lead the way in LI battery tech. Since they already partner with Panasonic I'm sure solid state is something they would pivot to when ready.
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      12-30-2020, 11:31 AM   #15
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https://newatlas.com/energy/quantums...state-battery/

https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/8/2...ange-charge-vw

The chase has begun
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      12-30-2020, 11:53 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antzcrashing View Post
"It says it expects its batteries to exceed 400 Wh/kg by 2022"

The 400 Wh/kg level would be 54% higher than roughly 260 Wh/kg that Tesla is using today.

EVs would not weigh that much then, even when having huge battery packs:

75 kWh battery at 400 Wh/kg: 188 kg of cells (compared to 288 kg now)
100 kWh battery at 400 Wh/kg: 250 kg of cells (compared to 384 kg now)
150 kWh battery at 400 Wh/kg: 375 kg of cells (compared to 577 kg now)
200 kWh battery at 400 Wh/kg: 500 kg of cells (compared to 770 kg now)

https://insideevs.com/news/440727/el...cells-not-far/

Lightweight battery packs = better performing and lower cost (other things being equal)
Excellent news! This got me properly excited about a true lightweight sport EV, possibly the first proper ///M EV?

A bit of Googling indicates that a B58 inline-6 weighs about 140 kg, and the accompanying ZF-8 another 90 kg for comparison. In antzcrashing 's chart, this is roughly equivalent to a 100 KWh battery pack, which Google tells me is around 130 HP. But that's KW, not KWh so am I missing something here?

So not quite there yet but love the progress in such a short period of time! We might be on target to see something like this in 7-10 years!
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      12-30-2020, 12:07 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -EndOfAnEra- View Post
Excellent news! This got me properly excited about a true lightweight sport EV, possibly the first proper ///M EV?

A bit of Googling indicates that a B58 inline-6 weighs about 140 kg, and the accompanying ZF-8 another 90 kg for comparison. In antzcrashing 's chart, this is roughly equivalent to a 100 KWh battery pack, which Google tells me is around 130 HP. But that's KW, not KWh so am I missing something here?

So not quite there yet but love the progress in such a short period of time! We might be on target to see something like this in 7-10 years!
I am not sure there is a simple direct relation or derivation of KW (HP) numbers with KWH, the first is related to power output (motor) and the second is related to energy storage capacity (battery).
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      12-30-2020, 02:07 PM   #18
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how does this stack up against tesla batteries? i an curious enough to ask the question.
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BMW have tapped into this by mirroring typical BMW dynamics and steering communication within the new UKL cars.
You mean massive body roll, a steering system that is not connected to the front wheels, and the engine note played through the speaker system?!?!?!?!
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      12-30-2020, 02:13 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
how does this stack up against tesla batteries? i an curious enough to ask the question.
The 400 Wh/kg level would be 54% higher than roughly 260 Wh/kg that Tesla is using today.

EVs would not weigh that much then, even when having huge battery packs:

75 kWh battery at 400 Wh/kg: 188 kg of cells (compared to 288 kg now)
100 kWh battery at 400 Wh/kg: 250 kg of cells (compared to 384 kg now)
150 kWh battery at 400 Wh/kg: 375 kg of cells (compared to 577 kg now)
200 kWh battery at 400 Wh/kg: 500 kg of cells (compared to 770 kg now)
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      12-31-2020, 08:34 AM   #20
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Great read, thank you.
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      12-31-2020, 10:03 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -EndOfAnEra- View Post
In antzcrashing 's chart, this is roughly equivalent to a 100 KWh battery pack, which Google tells me is around 130 HP. But that's KW, not KWh so am I missing something here?
Yes. Morning coffee, perhaps?

Surely you are aware of, just for example, the high performance Tesla Model S with a 100kWh battery and ~800hp (over 600kW) motor output.

So, that little “h” matters. You cannot directly compare values of differing units and arrive at reasonable conclusions. In this case, you made the mistake of comparing power over a quantum of time vs. power at an instant (for starters - there is much more to the story, but it’s out of scope here).
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      12-31-2020, 01:13 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Yes. Morning coffee, perhaps?

Surely you are aware of, just for example, the high performance Tesla Model S with a 100kWh battery and ~800hp (over 600kW) motor output.

So, that little “h” matters. You cannot directly compare values of differing units and arrive at reasonable conclusions. In this case, you made the mistake of comparing power over a quantum of time vs. power at an instant (for starters - there is much more to the story, but it’s out of scope here).
I always think of it as 100kw can be delivered for one hour. On my sport displays I use about 30kw when cruising at a steady 110kmh so I think of a 90kwh battery as being able to do 3 hours of steady state cruising.
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