[PhJ]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

You seem to be too hung up on the specific choice of words over the overall message or point that is being conveyed... The fact that DIN/EU weights from 2014 and 2020 cannot be directly compared is the point I have been insisting on since the start of this thread.

When I was referring to "factory options" I meant those that the distributors select for their local markets, not the ones selected by the individual private buyers. What the factory considers as "optional" differs to what is being offered as standard/optional in the different markets and the list of what can be "selected" varies significantly from one market to another. Perhaps using the word "configuration" instead of "option" might have made this specific post clearer.

CanAutM3,

what you have tried to say from the beginning of this thread is finally now becoming more clear to understand. Thanks ! But the subsequent questions of bm323 do make sense and I will be waiting for your reply to these questions.
PhJ

[bm323]

Originally Posted by VIERsr

This is the last claimed weight for the F82 (Nov 2019). Pretty far from 1497kg and very close to the all M4s tested (barely under 1600kg with no options, between 1620 and 1640 if well equipped).
The text in red means "Data refers to a vehicle with basic configuration in Germany", and in Germany the M4 F82 had standard 18" rims, no EDC, no power seats, no heated seats, no leather interiors.
For reference, for the G82 they claim 1700kg (1725 auto) DIN, but with 18/19 rims, EDC, leather, heated and power seats and so on, that means +130kg but with more equipment, it's very hard to make a fair comparison then. But still very far from +185kg.

Thanks VIERsr. Does the chart mean that the DIN weight (ie standard 18" rims, no EDC, no power seats, no heated seats, no leather interiors ) of the F82 manual was 1645 kg? And that BMW states that the DIN weight (with 18/19 rims, EDC, leather, heated and power seats and so on) of the G82 manual is 1700 kg? The difference between these 2 is only 55 kg.



edit: the top portion of chart in red has 2 sections which I translated using Google: "massa a vuoto" (empty mass) and "massa secondo normativo eu" (mass according to eu regulation). The lower red has "I dati si riferiscono ad un veicolo con configurazione base effettuata in Germania" (The data refer to a vehicle with basic configuration made in Germany)

[VIERsr]

Exactly, DIN weights are F82 1570 vs G82 1700, +25 for auto + 75 for EU.

[TargaM2]

Originally Posted by bm323

Thanks VIERsr. Does the chart mean that the DIN weight (ie standard 18" rims, no EDC, no power seats, no heated seats, no leather interiors ) of the F82 manual was 1645 kg? And that BMW states that the DIN weight (with 18/19 rims, EDC, leather, heated and power seats and so on) of the G82 manual is 1700 kg? The difference between these 2 is only 55 kg.

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edit: the top portion of chart in red has 2 sections which I translated using Google: "massa a vuoto" (empty mass) and "massa secondo normativo eu" (mass according to eu regulation). The lower red has "I dati si riferiscono ad un veicolo con configurazione base effettuata in Germania" (The data refer to a vehicle with basic configuration made in Germany)

Wow look at the convertible figures ! , how heavy will the G83 be ?. I realize convertible buyers are more interested in style than substance but still that thing's gotta be 2 tonnes !.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by bm323

I don't think it is clear still. Are you saying that "Back in 2014, when the F8X was released, the DIN weight was of base car without any configuration or options installed" and the DIN weight now is the base car with standard options/what is being offered as standard (ie standard options)? You mentioned that different markets have different standard options. If so, does it mean that the DIN weight for 1 country may differ from the DIN weight for another country?

When was the revision made to the DIN standard? The F8X was sold until about 2018. If the DIN was revised during the period the F8X was sold, do you have the DIN weight (after revision) for the F80 or F82?

Listen, I am not an expert in this, all I know for a fact is that the DIN/EU standard has changed significantly enough since 2014 that it is not possible to directly compare DIN/EU weights from then and now.

From what I understand, back in 2014, manufacturers were able to select the lightest possible configuration of a car to certify its DIN/EU weight. For instance, IIRC, even the dual zone HVAC was considered a "factory option", but I don't believe any market in the world elected to sell the F8X (except for the CS and GTS) with the basic single zone HVAC. Same goes for the manual seats, while theoretically the base configuration, most markets offered them as standard. Point is, in all likelyhood, an F82 in the real world would weigh more than the original 1,497kg DIN weight.

Again, from what I gather, the standard changed in steps, it was not done in one shot and it is not clear to me exactly when it hapenned. You can see that even the DIN weight of the F8X has been increased over time from the original 1,497kg due to those changes as posted by VIERsr .

It is also not clear to me what is the exact vehicle configuration that needs to be used for the "new" DIN/EU weight. Is it an average representative vehicle for Europe or is it the "base" configuration sold in Germany (DIN is a German standard)? But for sure, you can now spec a vehicle that will be lighter in the real world than its DIN weight.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by PhJ

CanAutM3,
I looked at the video (on the yellow Porsche GT4) shared by dgm3 and you are right : it looks like the EU standard has changed in between 2014 and 2019, according to Andreas Preuninger from Porsche, interviewed by Henry catchpole (from EVO magazine) in this video. I was not aware of this. Thanks for the info .
In 2014, a car manufacturer could homologate the weight of a car by including all the options which would decrease its weight, which is no more the case today as the EU weight has to be measured nowadays on a standard car with no option ticked.
This means that for a straight apples-to-apples comparison between 2014 and 2021 car weights, we should look for any car at all the options available in 2014 that would decrease the weight of that car and sum them up to see how many kilos should be added the 'claimed' weight at that time. Concerning the 2014 F8x models, only the carbon ceramic brakes (weight benefit of 13 kg on G8x) comes to my mind. Anybody has other options in mind (together with the associated weight saving) ? Maybe a few extra kgs for optional light weight rims ? BMW has never had strange light weight options like 'no air conditioning' option at Porsche !
Carbon ceramics brakes (CCB) would add only about 13 kg, so that the 'adjusted' EU weight for F82 M4 MT would increase from 1572 (old EU) kg to 1585 (new EU) kg . Not a big deal as the weight increase from M82 M4 MT with CCB to G82 M4 MT would still be considerable : 190 kg (iso 203 kg), very far away from the +-80 kg estimated by a few readers of this thread. Am I missing something ?

~80kg is not as estimate, it is an actual figure comparing the actual weight of an F82 6MT as tested by AM&S and the actual weight of the G82 6MT weighed by BMW in their video (82kg to be exact). And as I posted previously, that is likely the low range of the weight difference, my estimate is that the weight difference will range between 80 and 135kg for equivalently specced cars depending on how they are specced.

And be careful, you seem to be pulling weight numbers out of nowhere (re weight of CCB here). As I stated earlier, bad assumptions lead to false conclusions.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by VIERsr

This is the last claimed weight for the F82 (Nov 2019). Pretty far from 1497kg and very close to the all M4s tested (barely under 1600kg with no options, between 1620 and 1640 if well equipped).
The text in red means "Data refers to a vehicle with basic configuration in Germany", and in Germany the M4 F82 had standard 18" rims, no EDC, no power seats, no heated seats, no leather interiors.
For reference, for the G82 they claim 1700kg (1725 auto) DIN, but with 18/19 rims, EDC, leather, heated and power seats and so on, that means +130kg but with more equipment, it's very hard to make a fair comparison then. But still very far from +185kg.



(Source: https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/italy...19?language=it)

As a tidbit, I remember doodling with different F8X configurators at some point, and if I recall correctly, even Germany offered the electric seats as standard. The manual seats could be ordered elsewhere in Europe though.

[PLF69]

The only real weight that's going to matter is the one on the scale when an actual owner puts is G80/2 on it.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by PLF69

The only real weight that's going to matter is the one on the scale when an actual owner puts is G80/2 on it.

Not really. That will be only one datapoint.

[PLF69]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Not really. That will be only one datapoint.

I forgot to mention matter for who.

I'd say mainly for the weight obsessed..

As of now I only read the driving review from the guy in Australia and it doesn't look too good when he compares to the M2C in terms of the car feeling big and heavy.

[VIERsr]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

As a tidbit, I remember doodling with different F8X configurators at some point, and if I recall correctly, even Germany offered the electric seats as standard. The manual seats could be ordered elsewhere in Europe though.

Probably this car come from another market then https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/test/bmw-m4-coupe/ (Picture 22)

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by VIERsr

Probably this car come from another market then https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/test/bmw-m4-coupe/ (Picture 22)

Yes, this is the AM&S article I referenced earlier. The DCT M4 used for AM&S supertest (that weighed 1615kg) also had manual seats. Maybe press cars or maybe BMW Germany made the electric seats standard later in the lifecycle.

[PhJ]

Originally Posted by bm323

Thanks VIERsr. Does the chart mean that the DIN weight (ie standard 18" rims, no EDC, no power seats, no heated seats, no leather interiors ) of the F82 manual was 1645 kg? And that BMW states that the DIN weight (with 18/19 rims, EDC, leather, heated and power seats and so on) of the G82 manual is 1700 kg? The difference between these 2 is only 55 kg.



edit: the top portion of chart in red has 2 sections which I translated using Google: "massa a vuoto" (empty mass) and "massa secondo normativo eu" (mass according to eu regulation). The lower red has "I dati si riferiscono ad un veicolo con configurazione base effettuata in Germania" (The data refer to a vehicle with basic configuration made in Germany)

bm323,
That is not correct. The chart means that the EU weight of the 2019 F82 manual was 1645 kg and not the DIN weight. This means that the weight difference is 130 kg with the claimed EU weight of 1775 kg for G82 MT. Still a lot but much less than the 203 kg difference between the claimed 'old EU' weight of F82 MT and 'new EU' weight of G82 MT.
I think I am going to go to a specialist to measure the weight of my 2014 F80 MT to find out if my F80 weighs also more than the claimed EU weight of 1595 kg of 2014.
PhJ

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by PhJ

bm323,
That is not correct. The chart means that the EU weight of the 2019 F82 manual was 1645 kg and not the DIN weight. This means that the weight difference is 130 kg with the claimed EU weight of 1775 kg for G82 MT. Still a lot but much less than the 203 kg difference between the claimed 'old EU' weight of F82 MT and 'new EU' weight of G82 MT.
I think I am going to go to a specialist to measure the weight of my 2014 F80 MT to find out if my F80 weighs also more than the claimed EU weight of 1595 kg of 2014.
PhJ

I personally prefer DIN weight over EU weight since EU includes an arbitrary 75kg for a driver and some luggage. Not every driver weighs the same. DIN is more straightforward as it is only the car and it is easier to compare with actual weights. And yes, 130kg is on the high end of the 80-135kg range I estimated earlier.

[PhJ]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I personally prefer DIN weight over EU weight since EU includes an arbitrary 75kg for a driver and some luggage. Not every driver weighs the same. DIN is more straightforward as it is only the car and it is easier to compare with actual weights. And yes, 130kg is on the high end of the 80-135kg range I estimated earlier.

CanAutM3,
I understand your viewpoint about DIN weight: DIN is a little bit more straighforward as you do not have to add 75 kg to the weight measured (it is not a big deal, is it ?). I prefer the EU weight which is more universal. Nevertheless, both DIN and EU weight measures are somehow weird as the spec says that the tank has to be 90% full. That is NOT easy to get, isn't it !!!
PhJ

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by PhJ

CanAutM3,
I understand your viewpoint about DIN weight: DIN is a little bit more straighforward as you do not have to add 75 kg to the weight measured (it is not a big deal, is it ?). I prefer the EU weight which is more universal. Nevertheless, both DIN and EU weight measures are somehow weird as the spec says that the tank has to be 90% full. That is NOT easy to get, isn't it !!!
PhJ

I agree adding 75kg is not that difficult, but it can quickly spiral into confusion as demonstrated just in this very thread .

Yes, I’ve always wondered about that 90% fuel requirement came from. I’ve always interpreted this as “as practically full as possible”. When you think of it, on 60l tank, it’s less than 5kg.

[dgm3]

Originally Posted by bm323

Thanks VIERsr. Does the chart mean that the DIN weight (ie standard 18" rims, no EDC, no power seats, no heated seats, no leather interiors ) of the F82 manual was 1645 kg? And that BMW states that the DIN weight (with 18/19 rims, EDC, leather, heated and power seats and so on) of the G82 manual is 1700 kg? The difference between these 2 is only 55 kg.



edit: the top portion of chart in red has 2 sections which I translated using Google: "massa a vuoto" (empty mass) and "massa secondo normativo eu" (mass according to eu regulation). The lower red has "I dati si riferiscono ad un veicolo con configurazione base effettuata in Germania" (The data refer to a vehicle with basic configuration made in Germany)

No, 1645 is the EU weight on the chart. DIN weight is the line above (eventhough DIN name is not specifically referred in this italian brochure) , ie 1570 kg.

So the delta with the G82 is based on DIN figures 1700 - 1570 = 130 kg . And you obviously obtain the same delta if you start from EU figures, 1775 - 1645 = 130 kg.

However as VIERsr explained this is not really a fair comparison since the F82 had a much lower base equipment.

[PhJ]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

~80kg is not as estimate, it is an actual figure comparing the actual weight of an F82 6MT as tested by AM&S and the actual weight of the G82 6MT weighed by BMW in their video (82kg to be exact). And as I posted previously, that is likely the low range of the weight difference, my estimate is that the weight difference will range between 80 and 135kg for equivalently specced cars depending on how they are specced.

And be careful, you seem to be pulling weight numbers out of nowhere (re weight of CCB here). As I stated earlier, bad assumptions lead to false conclusions.

CatAutM3,
I cannot read German but I agree that Auto Motor und Sport is a very serious german magazine and is a good reference. Let's go back to your famous AM&S test of 2014 F80 M4 MT and examine what they found out:
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/...hnische-daten/

AM&S says the following on 2014 F80 MT in the above article :
Leergewicht 1572 kg
Hersteller
Leergewicht Testwagen 1592 kg
vollgetankt

I translated the above to English and it says that the BMW claimed weight is 1572 kg, the EU weight I mentioned in the thread article, whereas the measured weight with a fuel full tank of their test car F82 M4 MT is in fact 1592 kg.
This means that the AM&S test car F80 M4 MT is ONLY 20 kg heavier than claimed by BMW and in fact even less than 20 kg heavier as the measured car had a heavier tank (full) than the 90% tank full of the official EU weight claimed by BMW.

Therefore the weight difference between a measured 2014 F80 M4 MT and a standard G82 M4 MT is 183 kg (= 1775 kg-1592 kg) instead of 203 kg and the difference is not ~80 kg that you consider as an accurate figure.

And sorry I am not be pulling weight numbers out of nowhere (re weight of CCB here). The weight saving of CCB 13 kg is mentioned by BMW in https://g80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1790334. this is what I took as a first weight saving estimate of CCB on F82 as I do not know the weight saving of CCB over steel brakes for F82.
PhJ

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by PhJ

CatAutM3,
I cannot read German but I agree that Auto Motor und Sport is a very serious german magazine and is a good reference. Let's go back to your famous AM&S test of 2014 F80 M4 MT and examine what they found out:
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/...hnische-daten/

AM&S says the following on 2014 F80 MT in the above article :
Leergewicht 1572 kg
Hersteller
Leergewicht Testwagen 1592 kg
vollgetankt

I translated the above to English and it says that the BMW claimed weight is 1572 kg, the EU weight I mentioned in the thread article, whereas the measured weight with a fuel full tank of their test car F82 M4 MT is in fact 1592 kg.
This means that the AM&S test car F80 M4 MT is ONLY 20 kg heavier than claimed by BMW and in fact even less than 20 kg heavier as the measured car had a heavier tank (full) than the 90% tank full of the official EU weight claimed by BMW.

Therefore the weight difference between a measured 2014 F80 M4 MT and a standard G82 M4 MT is 183 kg (= 1775 kg-1592 kg) instead of 203 kg and the difference is not ~80 kg that you consider as an accurate figure.

And sorry I am not be pulling weight numbers out of nowhere (re weight of CCB here). The weight saving of CCB 13 kg is mentioned by BMW in https://g80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1790334. this is what I took as a first weight saving estimate of CCB on F82 as I do not know the weight saving of CCB over steel brakes for F82.
PhJ

Not quite. 1,572kg being the EU weight with 90% fuel and 1,592kg being full wet weight without driver, the tested vehicle was ~91kg heavier than the DIN/EU spec. (1,592kg as tested -1,572kg EU +75kg driver -4kg fuel = 91kg).

As for CCB, the link you posted does not seem to work, but people often omit to add the weight of the bigger CCB calipers when comparing CCB with irons. Evolve did due diligence in detail measuring the weight difference when they retrofitted an M2 with CCB and the true difference for the F8X is ~8kg. We do not have the weight details on the G8X brake weights, but since the iron setup and CCB have very similar caliper and rotor size, it is fair to assume the the weight savings for the CCB on the G8X will more significant than on the F8X. Using the M2cs as a reference, it will likely be in the 25kg range. So the weight difference between G8X and F8X is greater for iron brake equipped cars than it is for CCB equipped cars.

[VIERsr]

Leergewicht: curb weight.
It was the "old" standard to which 75kg were added to get the EU weight.
In fact, 1572 - 75 = 1497kg, the claimed weight for the M4 in 2014, far from the reality.
That M4 weighed 95 kg more than claimed and it had literally 0 options and CCB, so that unit of measurement was not accurate.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by VIERsr

Leergewicht: curb weight.
It was the "old" standard to which 75kg were added to get the EU weight.
In fact, 1572 - 75 = 1497kg, the claimed weight for the M4 in 2014, far from the reality.
That M4 weighed 95 kg more than claimed and it had literally 0 options and CCB, so that unit of measurement was not accurate.

My understanding: Leergewicht is the EU weight; Subtracting 75kg from that yields the DIN weight.

As for this particular M4 having zero options, it all depends what is considered an option

[solstice]

Lol, same mess as with every new generation when European weights are used.
Oh but it’s better and more precise and this and that but it always endup in a complete meltdown where everyone have different weights.