[casualDIYer]

Hate to pile it on but why on earth would you use any any any summer performance tire in low temp conditions. The cut off is 7C (45F). If you had hit that ice with a dedicated winter you may still have had a traction issue (no tire is perfect) but your chances of recovery are way way way better with the correct tire. Everyone who lives in climates where ice forms on the road during winter regularly doesn’t need to drive long to discover the disadvantages of inappropriate tires.

I’ve heard it before “never had that happen”. Luck isn’t a strategy.

Glad you’re okay. Now go out get a car with winter tires and be a witness for using the correct tires. You’ve got enough experience now.

[casualDIYer]

Originally Posted by baron95

People are crashing these RWD cars all the time. In the summer they blame them on loose sand and dirt on the road. In the winter it is black ice. In the fall it's deer jumping in front of them.

Then everyone harps on the tires.

I agree the driver likely engaged in other reckless choices besides just tires but the grade on my driveway to my garage is maybe 5-7 degrees and maybe 20 ft long. I could not drive up that grade with a dusting of snow on the PS4S tire. The Michelin PS line of any generation will not handle ice. I’ve loved every PS I’ve used but it is not at all appropriate for ice. It is reckless to use it in any conditions in which you will get ice.

[casualDIYer]

Originally Posted by GuyLedouche

Severe PTSD? Please.

The guy calls his car ‘baby’. I’d give him a day to recover before he gets online looking for ‘baby #2’. Bet a set of snow tires will cure his PTSD

[casualDIYer]

Originally Posted by hooked

The tires ARE the issue.

Agree. I love the pilot sport line and have years of experience on multiple variations (ps, pss, ps4, ps4s). I’d rather use a bargain basement all season over any PS tire in icy conditions. It just doesn’t do ice.

[M440iXGuy]

It’s a very unfortunate situation all around. Thank god you were able to walk away with only your ego really being bruised. The car can be replaced, you can’t be. Head the advice of those in this thread. The reality is, the true shame would be if you didn’t learn from this major mistake. I personally live in NY in Suffolk county and it’s been brutally cold this season. My M has all seasons and I still garage it under a cover from mid November until the spring yearly in fear of this same situation that I have no control over. God Speed to all!

[Dgjo2022X5MC]

Had a couple drinks tonight. Gonna put it out there.

Highly doubt any back ice was part of this.

Sorry OP. You likely ignored the spend.

My kids were almost wiped out by a nitwit like you as they were driving a nice 09 328ix sporwagon…on Blizzaks in a minor snow. Hit head on by another, like you, with no snows on. Out car totaled. OP unconscious and hauled off in ambulance….after my kid with a torn rotator cuff from impact pulled him out of his car. So F off all of you debating wondering if summers in winter are ok at or about forty whatever. Idiots. Drive a f-ing Subaru.

[WillMotivation]

Dang... I wrecked my 2024 M4 on the same day. Tried to get the footage on video which you can see below. I think I might be able to get the crash footage where I hit the deer but I gotta check the car.

Just seeing this thread. Sorry about the misfortune man. Environmental conditions are a bitch when we get caught in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I just hit a deer, looks like on the same day you crashed as well but luckily I don't think my car is totaled but probably will be down for a month for repairs, I'm guessing.

I posted it on the forums here and also pulled out the phone and got some video of the wreck which I figured might help remind folks to be careful about the deer and other stuff out here like black ice...

[BMWbiker]

[QUOTE=frequentflyer123;30934288]Racetrack and real world driving are two different things. Temperatures can easily fluctuate in and out of ideal range for the winter/summer tire in a matter of hours for those of us that live in places with milder winters.

Yes they are different. That’s one of my points.

Originally Posted by frequentflyer123

In fact, the weather in NYC is between 33 and 61F this Wednesday. Then it falls to between 30 and 40 on Thursday. Only for it to go back up to high 40s to high 50s on the weekend. This is the temperature fluctuation I have to deal with on a weekly basis.

Yes, you and millions of others. BTDT.

Originally Posted by frequentflyer123

Tell me, should I have winter tires on Wednesday AM, swap them out for summers on Wednesday afternoon, only to swap them back out for winters for Thursday? And then back to summers on the weekend?

No. Put on winter tires. When? In the winter. Put on summer tires. When? In the summer.

I’m a bit surprised that you find the idea that difficult to comprehend.

Remember: it’s suboptimal but safe to drive with winter tires on a warm day. However, it’s hazardous to drive summer tires in the cold, as the OP discovered the hard way.

[JJacksonIII]

I think the most fascinating thing I learned on this thread is that it's impossible to crash an M3/4 in the summer, on summer tires. I could have sworn I had seen lots of pictures and even videos of high powered, rear wheel drive cars crashing, but I guess they all had the wrong tires on them.

[KevinGS]

OP, I do believe you, that it was likely Black Ice.

I don’t like winter tires, especially on any sports/sporty car I have owned, as they squirm a bit too much because the sidewall is so soft (of course by design).



It's disconcerting and sometimes feels dangerous to me...when the car doesn't respond as I expect. For my tastes, winter tires reduce the traction too much in dry weather for any performance car I’ve owned or driven, sapping the car’s roadholding abilities in the dry.

On all tires, I drive with extra caution and at slower speeds with most kinds of precipitation, as I don’t feel the need to test my car’s abilities in slippery conditions on public roads. I just need my car to get me to my destination without a scare or incident. Hec, I'm more worried about the other drivers on the road in slippery conditions. Ultimately, on summer tires in every RWD sports car I’ve owned, all I have ever needed was my restrained right foot and traction control to get me to my destination without incident.

No, I have never purposely taken my sports cars out in the snow and ice, but even if I had an AWD G8X on winter tires, I would still avoid the snow and ice. I’ve seen plenty of wrecked AWD vehicles (SUVs, Subarus, etc.) in snowstorms because AWD can’t save most from bad driving or a long sheet of ice. But I understand some people like to (or must) drive their G8Xs in all weather conditions, including wintry conditions, so then AWD is a no-brainer. But still, drive carefully.

Yes, I agree it’s “safer” to use winter tires in the winter when compared to summer tires, but I don’t believe it’s dangerous to be on summer tires in the winter on dry or cold, wet pavement if you drive with care when the situation or weather calls for it. In the same regard, it’s safer to be on all-season tires in the rain in many cases compared to high-performance tires (or track tires like Cup 2s), but you can drive with high-performance tires in the rain, with extra care and common sense. I’ve made it to my destination in torrential downpours on Cup 2s, with the traction control on and driving with care. It wasn’t the safest (of course the best rain-whisking tire would have been ideal in these instances), but I made it, allowing for extra space around me and moderating my right foot. The car never felt like it was going to spin uncontrollably.

Over 30+ years of driving, I have driven every sports car or sporty car I have ever owned straight through every northeastern winter, down to and below 0 degrees Fahrenheit, on high-performance summer tires (mostly Michelins recently, Goodyears way back in the day), and every one of those cars have been RWD. Never had an issue, if you drive sanely and respect the weather (and allow the tires to warm up before driving a bit more spiritedly). And my tires never cracked and such, even with all the temperature changes in the rubber…from below 0-degree temperatures in winters past...to 100 degrees in the summer, with the same tires.

My basic winter driving rules have been:

*Check the weather, often. Avoid all snow- and ice-related weather conditions. If you have to drive and there’s even a chance of ice on the road (from melted snow or a recent rain), then be extra careful, especially on bridges and in bends/turns.

*Allow the tires to warm up, especially if the car is parked outside....and a few of mine were indeed parked outside until I could afford a garage later in life.

*If you're a tailgater by nature (I am not, but many people are and don't realize it), in colder weather tailgaters should take extra precaution and allow for longer following distances (and this is the case in the rain as well so just be more careful - hopefully common sense).

*Check the tires' air pressures more frequently.

I have never owned an AWD car and have never even thought about it for my fun car. But I haven't owned that many fun cars (I tend to marry them, I don't get different cars often). Here's the list of RWD cars that have made it through every winter with me on summer, high-performance tires (and all of them were lowered a bit and modified in a few ways except for the RX7).

1985 Mazda RX7 manual
1990 Nissan 300ZX Turbo manual
2001 Lexus GS430
2013 M3 convertible
2015 M4
2021 M4 RWD

I still own the two in bold, and they have been the only 2 cars I have owned the past 3 years and winters, and I never have changed out my Michelin PS4S on either. And I was just in New York City in my M4 last month, and it was kind of cold (forgot how cold). No problems. And I just came back from the MD mountains in my E93 two weeks ago, visiting some friends hours away. It got down to like 20 degrees the night I was there. I drove my car home the next day, and the temperature was around freezing. No issues. My Michelins soldiered on.

[JJacksonIII]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

OP, I do believe you, that it was likely Black Ice.

I don’t like winter tires, especially on any sports/sporty car I have owned, as they squirm a bit too much because the sidewall is so soft (of course by design).



It's disconcerting and sometimes feels dangerous to me...when the car doesn't respond as I expect. For my tastes, winter tires reduce the traction too much in dry weather for any performance car I’ve owned or driven, sapping the car’s roadholding abilities in the dry.

On all tires, I drive with extra caution and at slower speeds with most kinds of precipitation, as I don’t feel the need to test my car’s abilities in slippery conditions on public roads. I just need my car to get me to my destination without a scare or incident. Hec, I'm more worried about the other drivers on the road in slippery conditions. Ultimately, on summer tires in every RWD sports car I’ve owned, all I have ever needed was my restrained right foot and traction control to get me to my destination without incident.

No, I have never purposely taken my sports cars out in the snow and ice, but even if I had an AWD G8X on winter tires, I would still avoid the snow and ice. I’ve seen plenty of wrecked AWD vehicles (SUVs, Subarus, etc.) in snowstorms because AWD can’t save most from bad driving or a long sheet of ice. But I understand some people like to (or must) drive their G8Xs in all weather conditions, including wintry conditions, so then AWD is a no-brainer. But still, drive carefully.

Yes, I agree it’s “safer” to use winter tires in the winter when compared to summer tires, but I don’t believe it’s dangerous to be on summer tires in the winter on dry or cold, wet pavement if you drive with care when the situation or weather calls for it. In the same regard, it’s safer to be on all-season tires in the rain in many cases compared to high-performance tires (or track tires like Cup 2s), but you can drive with high-performance tires in the rain, with extra care and common sense. I’ve made it to my destination in torrential downpours on Cup 2s, with the traction control on and driving with care. It wasn’t the safest (of course the best rain-whisking tire would have been ideal in these instances), but I made it, allowing for extra space around me and moderating my right foot. The car never felt like it was going to spin uncontrollably.

Over 30+ years of driving, I have driven every sports car or sporty car I have ever owned straight through every northeastern winter, down to and below 0 degrees Fahrenheit, on high-performance summer tires (mostly Michelins recently, Goodyears way back in the day), and every one of those cars have been RWD. Never had an issue, if you drive sanely and respect the weather (and allow the tires to warm up before driving a bit more spiritedly). And my tires never cracked and such, even with all the temperature changes in the rubber…from below 0-degree temperatures in winters past...to 100 degrees in the summer, with the same tires.

My basic winter driving rules have been:

*Check the weather, often. Avoid all snow- and ice-related weather conditions. If you have to drive and there’s even a chance of ice on the road (from melted snow or a recent rain), then be extra careful, especially on bridges and in bends/turns.

*Allow the tires to warm up, especially if the car is parked outside....and a few of mine were indeed parked outside until I could afford a garage later in life.

*If you're a tailgater by nature (I am not, but many people are and don't realize it), in colder weather tailgaters should take extra precaution and allow for longer following distances (and this is the case in the rain as well so just be more careful - hopefully common sense).

*Check the tires' air pressures more frequently.

I have never owned an AWD car and have never even thought about it for my fun car. But I haven't owned that many fun cars (I tend to marry them, I don't get different cars often). Here's the list of RWD cars that have made it through every winter with me on summer, high-performance tires (and all of them were lowered a bit and modified in a few ways except for the RX7).

1985 Mazda RX7 manual
1990 Nissan 300ZX Turbo manual
2001 Lexus GS430
2013 M3 convertible
2015 M4
2021 M4 RWD

I still own the two in bold, and they have been the only 2 cars I have owned the past 3 years and winters, and I never have changed out my Michelin PS4S on either. And I was just in New York City in my M4 last month, and it was kind of cold (forgot how cold). No problems. And I just came back from the MD mountains in my E93 two weeks ago, visiting some friends hours away. It got down to like 20 degrees the night I was there. I drove my car home the next day, and the temperature was around freezing. No issues. My Michelins soldiered on.

I couldn't agree more with this post. I went through my first winter in my X7 M60 on my summer tires and never even came close to having an issue. Drove through cold rain, heavy snow, icy conditions and temps that dipped to 15 below zero and just slowed down when I did. It was a non-issue. Didn't skid or slide, didn't even spin my tires. But on the X7 threads, I was called out pretty harshly for admitting I had done that. Basically told that I will die in a firey crash if I ever attempt it again. Maybe some people just don't know how to increase their following distance and lay off the gas pedal.

[cozye]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

Over 30+ years of driving, I have driven every sports car or sporty car I have ever owned straight through every northeastern winter, down to and below 0 degrees Fahrenheit, on high-performance summer tires (mostly Michelins recently, Goodyears way back in the day), and every one of those cars have been RWD.

I appreciate your well written, factual, and unemotional post. Spot on.

[italiabrain]

Originally Posted by frequentflyer123

Don't disagree. But how is that relevant for the OP, who was driving in NYC?

The whole point I am trying to make is NYC doesn't have sustained temps under 40F so it's understandable why OP didn't have winters.

You guys all seem to think OP was driving with summer tire in a Minnesota winter or something.

The high today was 40 for NYC. There’s one low above it. If you want to use a different word than sustained fine, but it’s semantics. There’s snow in OPs picture. I’m trying to have a balanced and honest response and so many play gotcha games. How about winter tires before there’s snow on the ground as there is in OPs picture?

Do you want “more than occasionally dips below by more than a little bit? Instead of sustained? Fine.

[GinTonic]

Good thing op is ok. Don't drive on summer tires in the winter.

[Crester]

Originally Posted by Dgjo2022X5MC

Had a couple drinks tonight. Gonna put it out there.

Highly doubt any back ice was part of this.

Sorry OP. You likely ignored the spend.

My kids were almost wiped out by a nitwit like you as they were driving a nice 09 328ix sporwagon…on Blizzaks in a minor snow. Hit head on by another, like you, with no snows on. Out car totaled. OP unconscious and hauled off in ambulance….after my kid with a torn rotator cuff from impact pulled him out of his car. So F off all of you debating wondering if summers in winter are ok at or about forty whatever. Idiots. Drive a f-ing Subaru.

I hope morons like Custom Install see your story. And I'm really sorry your family had to go thru that. I hope everyone recovered quickly.

[imperfectluck]

This has evolved into quite the thread. I'm in the camp of running the proper tires for the given conditions.

For those that do run summers all year more power to you though for others that know how the current driving situation in NYC, you'll know that the whole "swimming" thing has really caused idiots to be out a lot more than they used to and I've seen some ridiculous accidents on the belt parkway from these drivers.

It's fine to take your time on summers but let's be honest, morning traffic in NYC, you know everyone is flying to make it into work no matter the weather conditions, God speed if someone cuts you off and you need to apply the brakes and not slide into their rear due to stiffer rubber on your behalf.

[Custom Install]

Originally Posted by Crester

I hope morons like Custom Install see your story. And I'm really sorry your family had to go thru that. I hope everyone recovered quickly.

As I said earlier, you clearly have it in for me and using the word “moron” is completely unacceptable.
But, you must feel better now having put your cards on the table so enjoy the moment.

[eljay]

It's been said and "liked" many times in this thread and needs to be said again.l, again, and again...

Winter tires are not just for snow! The rubber compound is for the temperature range!

Do you drive an M4 on all seasons on track?? No. Why? Because the rubber compound on a 500 TW tire is not designed for that temp range and looses its gripping ability.
The same is true on the opposite range of the temp spectrum.
When temps are below 7C, winter tire compound is safer every time.
No, you will not warm up your high performance tires in stop and go freezing temp winter traffic.

I am sorry to say, but I hope you learned your lesson. Would your "baby" be saved on winter tires? Maybe not. You might have still ended up in an accident.l on black ice. But it would likely be more controllable and you would've gotten away with a smashed bumper and not a totalled car. It's about probabilities and your choices reduced your (and others'!!) safety margin.

We are here now arguing about one's driving, tire choices, couch superhero rally drivers, blah blah blah ONLY because you were extremely lucky to not have injured anyone else nor yourself. If that happened, we wouldn't be having any of this "debate".

[Angmar]

Originally Posted by SwankPeRFection

You guys are killing people’s insurance premiums with your shit man. I’m glad you’re OK, but Jesus. Do you guys just fucking drive around on Sport+ and summer tires all the fucking time or some shit?!

I do lol….Unless it’s snowing or icey then I crawl around.

Soon as the tires that came on it wear out I’ll be putting all seasons on though.

[nick3753]

I wonder just how many people purchase their first high performance car and have no idea they are fitted with summer tires (or even know such things exist), especially Tesla. I bought a Nissan SE-R spec V when I was 20 living in MD. Spun out on the highway at slow speed in light snow, couldn’t get up a slight incline into my work parking lot and had to get coworkers to push me. Figured my tires must be balled and I was just inexperienced. Well, the later was true, but it was fitted with summers from the factory. Lesson learned.

[brokeboi]

I'm glad you're okay. Pure black ice is really scary, as winter tires won't neccessarily stop you from sliding. I would know, as I crashed my old Toyota with winter tires back in the days while driving at 15 mph. I was turning the wheel as I was approaching a corner, and absolutely nothing happened. The car went straight and hit a parked car.

The only thing that actually does help on black ice is studded wheels, but even that is no guarantee if you drive on the slippiest black ice. I mean, people in my country literally drift on an ice track with studded wheels and awd.

[Panscan340]

Seems like a lot of damage to the car for never going more than 50 on the way to work. Glad you’re ok , will never understand people with 100k cars cheaping out on 2k of tires that last 3 winters.