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      09-29-2020, 09:22 AM   #23
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Wow, what an interesting thread. I knew Europe was getting more stringent, but I had no idea the curve was that steep. 50k Euro taxes is something I'd expect more in Scandinavian countries. And to think that just a few years ago, it was fractionally less.

We always seem to blame manufacturers for making less and less cars that we as a group like, but when you see crazy numbers like this, it really does put it into perspective.

Meanwhile where I live, we don't even have car inspections...

P.S. With reading things like this, it really does make me wonder if the G series M cars will be the last ones with 3 pedals and the next ones will truly go PHEV route
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      09-29-2020, 09:45 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by swagon View Post
I'm in the EU, too. Just in a country with (still... knock knock knock) low environmental taxes.

Had no idea you could buy a LHD car in the UK, brand new. Was it from an official dealership?
Yes. BMW Park Lane in London. I picked up the car there on UK Export plates and then registered it in France. Just after the Brexit vote Yes result in July 16 was announced, sterling plummeted and I pounced. You can pay in GBP / USD or EUR. Car was delivered in Nov 16.

https://www.bmwtaxfree.co.uk/personal-tax-free-sales

It might not be all that attractive now, but if you can get a good exchange rate then plan it out. The reason for my rant - 40,000 EUR tax has killed it for me
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      09-29-2020, 10:06 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by W/// View Post
Wow, what an interesting thread. I knew Europe was getting more stringent, but I had no idea the curve was that steep. 50k Euro taxes is something I'd expect more in Scandinavian countries. And to think that just a few years ago, it was fractionally less.
Europe is all about limiting your freedoms.

The US despite all its shortcomings still allows you to have some freedom.
In the US, a middle class family can afford to do things they want to do even if those things are out of the norm.
If you like horses, you can sacrifice where you live and how large your home is in order to afford one.
If you like cars, you can decide to get an expensive one and live in a trailer park.
If you like the track, you can elect to buy your clothes at Walmart and eat Ramen noodles every day to fund your hobby.
If you want to have a wood workshop in your little garage you can do it.

In Europe, DaddyandMommy-state has already made the decision for you. You are allowed a cookie cutter existence and if you want to do anything special you'd better be a friggin millionaire.

Edit: freedom also comes at a cost, so it's not all positive for the US. Still, the best civilized country to live in.

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      09-29-2020, 07:10 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Europe is all about limiting your freedoms.

The US despite all its shortcomings still allows you to have some freedom.
In the US, a middle class family can afford to do things they want to do even if those things are out of the norm.
If you like horses, you can sacrifice where you live and how large your home is in order to afford one.
If you like cars, you can decide to get an expensive one and live in a trailer park.
If you like the track, you can elect to buy your clothes at Walmart and eat Ramen noodles every day to fund your hobby.
If you want to have a wood workshop in your little garage you can do it.

In Europe, DaddyandMommy-state has already made the decision for you. You are allowed a cookie cutter existence and if you want to do anything special you'd better be a friggin millionaire.

Edit: freedom also comes at a cost, so it's not all positive for the US. Still, the best civilized country to live in.
Pretty much sums it up

Don’t call US the father of modern democracy for no reason.

EU is hopeless but I believe the Europeans can still fight it out through voting but then too many people wants to talk and look political correct. That’s why they are where they are now.
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      09-30-2020, 03:47 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by The English Guy View Post
Not only is the design stirring emotions maybe the price should as well.

Ran a config out of interest. A BMW M3 Competition, Davit Grey with a few options comes out as, for me, 117,500 EUR / 137,050 USD base price.

The government here in France have just released the new Emissions / Anti-Pollution Tax supplement for 2021 and 2022 (Malus Ecologique).

At 231g/km CO2 the M3 will cost me an extra 40,000 EUR / 46,600 USD on top of the purchase price to register it for the road and receive a license plate. This makes my purchase an eye watering 157,500 EUR / 183,695 USD.

Is it really worth it ? Ecology has taken hold in the European Union and this type of vehicle has seen it's day.

What's your opinion ?

Rest Of The World > Enjoy it while you can.

2022 sees the tax go up to 50,000 EUR.

This car has no chance even if it was a looker.

The next M3 will surely be Electric / Hybrid.
Looks like it is still a project (projet de la loi de Finances 2021/2)
https://www.challenges.fr/automobile...en-2022_729330
but I am afraid it will be voted. This is insane and will kill the non electric/hybrid sport & luxury car market ... that being said there are still a number of EU countries where taxes for these cars are reasonnable. But for how long?
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      09-30-2020, 06:38 AM   #28
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Just out of curiosity, how are used car taxes? Would something like an E92 M3 be prohibitively expensive to own, not counting fuel?
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      09-30-2020, 07:53 AM   #29
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Very interesting, wasn't aware of such a steep tax penalty on high emission cars in France. Currently probably part of a minority, but that will definitely change - especially when taking in mind Europe wants to be an ecological leader in the future.

But let's look on the bright side of things: Automakers are forced to invest into alternatives - mainly EV and (P)HEV, which come with their own advantages. I'm pretty sure (from a performance POV only, taking out emotions) future cars will be faster and have less emissions. A remapped 45e can push easily over 500 crank hp while still offering locally emission free driving and significantly reduced combined emmissions even when using both engines. With next gen battery packs, the weight penalty isn't that much anymore and will allow for longer stretches of electric only. A usable milage compared to the handful of miles we were able to drive on last gen PHEVs (15mi last gen, 30-60m current gen, hopefully 60-triple digits mi next gen).

I would really, really want to comment on the EU vs US/"freedom" comments on this thread - but that's getting too political and thats a highly emotional topic. Let's just say I disagree, but I don't think this is the right place to go into detail about that...
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      09-30-2020, 08:19 AM   #30
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Very interesting. I don't claim to have all the answers but this seems like a crappy solution. Makes me want to collect manual and NA cars (or at least internal combustion!) bc I'm sure the US isn't far behind.... If there's ever been a time to buy a GT3 in manual ...

Sad times for car enthusiasts when Germany commits to no more combustion engines (move production to US???)... and not to mention the controversy surrounding the devastation caused by battery production .. will all of this actually help the world? *sigh*
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      09-30-2020, 02:13 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W/// View Post
Just out of curiosity, how are used car taxes? Would something like an E92 M3 be prohibitively expensive to own, not counting fuel?

The taxes to register a used car are significanlty lower and in addition are decreasing by 10% every year after the first registration. So I believe an E92 M3 which is at least 7 years old should be relatively inexpensive to register... There is however an additional (minor)yearly tax (160 Euro) because of the co2 level.
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      09-30-2020, 02:19 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by evanescent03 View Post
Sad times for car enthusiasts when Germany commits to no more combustion engines (move production to US???)... and not to mention the controversy surrounding the devastation caused by battery production .. will all of this actually help the world? *sigh*
It's all about the perception of Eco-friendliness. Meanwhile most of the electric cars now are anything but eco friendly with high 0-60 performance as their cornerstone.

Consuming less energy, that is eco friendly. Instead we get high powered, expensive vehicles so rich people can avoid paying taxes on the cars and enjoy free charging that the poor people are subsidizing. Kind of like people flying in private jets to give speeches about climate change.

I'm not sure what the tax law in France is, but in Spain there is no car tax for electric cars. So you can buy your plaid mode Tesla without tax while the poor bastards buying 70hp diesels pay tax.
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      09-30-2020, 02:20 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by W/// View Post
Just out of curiosity, how are used car taxes? Would something like an E92 M3 be prohibitively expensive to own, not counting fuel?
if i recall correctly a dutch friend was telling me there wasn't really a difference, you paid a giant % tax even if the car was used if it originally was expensive.
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      09-30-2020, 02:31 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by dgm3 View Post
The taxes to register a used car are significanlty lower and in addition are decreasing by 10% every year after the first registration. So I believe an E92 M3 which is at least 7 years old should be relatively inexpensive to register... There is however an additional (minor)yearly tax (160 Euro) because of the co2 level.
Correct. It relies on the "Puissance Fiscal" or horsepower as well. From 14CV - about 250HP I think, its 1000 EUR. Below 14CV it drops to 300 or 100 EUR.
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      09-30-2020, 02:34 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by dgm3 View Post
Looks like it is still a project (projet de la loi de Finances 2021/2)
https://www.challenges.fr/automobile...en-2022_729330
but I am afraid it will be voted. This is insane and will kill the non electric/hybrid sport & luxury car market ... that being said there are still a number of EU countries where taxes for these cars are reasonnable. But for how long?
Of course it will be voted.
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      09-30-2020, 10:27 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The English Guy View Post
Not only is the design stirring emotions maybe the price should as well.

Ran a config out of interest. A BMW M3 Competition, Davit Grey with a few options comes out as, for me, 117,500 EUR / 137,050 USD base price.

The government here in France have just released the new Emissions / Anti-Pollution Tax supplement for 2021 and 2022 (Malus Ecologique).

At 231g/km CO2 the M3 will cost me an extra 40,000 EUR / 46,600 USD on top of the purchase price to register it for the road and receive a license plate. This makes my purchase an eye watering 157,500 EUR / 183,695 USD.

Is it really worth it ? Ecology has taken hold in the European Union and this type of vehicle has seen it's day.

What's your opinion ?

Rest Of The World > Enjoy it while you can.

2022 sees the tax go up to 50,000 EUR.

This car has no chance even if it was a looker.

The next M3 will surely be Electric / Hybrid.
Same here in Sweden we have a system called bonus malus making even regular cars have high taxes more powerfull cars crazy high taxes.
All this is based on Co2 emissions.

But Dodge and Ford are getting around this problem by make their high Co2 emissions vehicles flexfuel (E85 bioetanol) and these have regular low taxes.
So i suggested to BMW Sweden to do the same and they said that they would forward it but i has not heard anything since.

Maybe this can be a solution i other European countrys too?
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      10-01-2020, 12:25 AM   #37
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The Australian government doesn't even pretend their car tax cash grab has anything to do with the environment.
There is a 33% "luxury car" tax on every dollar above $67,525 of a new car price.

It was initially brought in to protect Australian car makers, but there are no Australian car makers anymore.
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      10-01-2020, 12:35 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Nugget View Post
The Australian government doesn't even pretend their car tax cash grab has anything to do with the environment.
There is a 33% "luxury car" tax on every dollar above $67,525 of a new car price.

It was initially brought in to protect Australian car makers, but there are no Australian car makers anymore.
I wish we just changed over to LHD, RHD market is way too niche.
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      10-01-2020, 06:13 AM   #39
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Correct. It relies on the "Puissance Fiscal" or horsepower as well. From 14CV - about 250HP I think, its 1000 EUR. Below 14CV it drops to 300 or 100 EUR.
Looks like an M3 E92 is 33CV for the puissance fiscale (calculated as follows PF = (CO2 : 45) + (Power : 40)*1,6 !!!), ie 1000 Euro based on the latest table but this has to be minored by the age of the car.
The tax can apparently now go up to 8000 Euro for the high hp cars. Still a bargain compared to the current 20000 or future 40/50000 Euro on new car.

Puissance fiscale du véhicule (en CV fiscaux) Montant de la surtaxe malus écologique
Inférieure à 10 CV 0 euros
10 / 11 CV 100 euros
12 à 14 CV 300 euros
De 15 à 35 CV 1000 euros
36 CV 1500 euros
37 CV 2000 euros
38 CV 2500 euros
39 CV 3000 euros
40 CV 3500 euros
41 CV 4000 euros
42 CV 4500 euros
43 CV 5000 euros
44 CV 5500 euros
45 CV 6000 euros
46 CV 6500 euros
47 CV 7000 euros
48 CV 7500 euros
Supérieur ou égal à 49 CV 8000 euros
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      10-01-2020, 06:47 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
if i recall correctly a dutch friend was telling me there wasn't really a difference, you paid a giant % tax even if the car was used if it originally was expensive.
Taxes in general and more specifically on cars (registration taxes but also additional yearly taxes) can be very different from one EU country to an other. The same is true for taxes on new vs used cars.
What is strange in France is that in few years they moved from a relatively favorable system to one of the worst. Who is going to pay an additional tax of 50000 Euro to register a car, just few hyper car owner I guess...others will either move to something else or try to by-pass the system (leasing / registration in other countries)
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      10-01-2020, 07:22 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by dgm3 View Post
Looks like an M3 E92 is 33CV for the puissance fiscale (calculated as follows PF = (CO2 : 45) + (Power : 40)*1,6 !!!), ie 1000 Euro based on the latest table but this has to be minored by the age of the car.
The tax can apparently now go up to 8000 Euro for the high hp cars. Still a bargain compared to the current 20000 or future 40/50000 Euro on new car.

Puissance fiscale du véhicule (en CV fiscaux) Montant de la surtaxe malus écologique
Inférieure à 10 CV 0 euros
10 / 11 CV 100 euros
12 à 14 CV 300 euros
De 15 à 35 CV 1000 euros
36 CV 1500 euros
37 CV 2000 euros
38 CV 2500 euros
39 CV 3000 euros
40 CV 3500 euros
41 CV 4000 euros
42 CV 4500 euros
43 CV 5000 euros
44 CV 5500 euros
45 CV 6000 euros
46 CV 6500 euros
47 CV 7000 euros
48 CV 7500 euros
Supérieur ou égal à 49 CV 8000 euros
In fact the new bonus / malus law will remove this from second hand vehicles. From the 1st January 2021 it's a free for all.
So you let someone take the 40,000 euro hit on first registration then 6 months later you buy without penalty. Crazy
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      10-01-2020, 07:30 AM   #42
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In fact the new bonus / malus law will remove this from second hand vehicles. From the 1st January 2021 it's a free for all.
So you let someone take the 40,000 euro hit on first registration then 6 months later you buy without penalty. Crazy
That's sure what it looks like. This absolutely kills the manufacturers in terms of who they can sell the car to. The M3/4 IMHO was always the car that was attainable if you work hard enough, not something that only the super wealthy can afford.

What an odd system.
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      10-01-2020, 08:08 AM   #43
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That's sure what it looks like. This absolutely kills the manufacturers in terms of who they can sell the car to. The M3/4 IMHO was always the car that was attainable if you work hard enough, not something that only the super wealthy can afford.

What an odd system.
It's only attainable in a few countries around the world. In most of Europe, if you have an M3 you are a wealthy person.

When your income is half (at most) what it is in the US, then you are taxed ~60% of that, then out of the 40% remaining you still have to pay ~20% VAT plus 70% tax on gasoline, property taxes, etc, well, you're basically living with 30% of your income.

Let's break it out in numbers.
In the US let's say you make 200k/year. In Europe let's assume you can find the same job and you're lucky that it pays you ~50%. Let's say 100k/year.
Taxes take half of that. You have 50k left
VAT takes 20% of that. You have 40k left.
If you want to buy a car there's an additional VAT of ~20%. If you want fuel it's 8/gal. You pay property tax, you pay for private healthcare because the public healthcare is clogged up.
You don't have a lot of money left when all is said and done.

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      10-01-2020, 08:43 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W/// View Post
That's sure what it looks like. This absolutely kills the manufacturers in terms of who they can sell the car to. The M3/4 IMHO was always the car that was attainable if you work hard enough, not something that only the super wealthy can afford.

What an odd system.
It's only attainable in a few countries around the world. In most of Europe, if you have an M3 you are a wealthy person.

When your income is half (at most) what it is in the US, then you are taxed ~60% of that, then out of the 40% remaining you still have to pay ~20% VAT plus 70% tax on gasoline, property taxes, etc, well, you're basically living with 30% of your income.

Let's break it out in numbers.
In the US let's say you make 200k/year. In Europe let's assume you can find the same job and you're lucky that it pays you ~50%. Let's say 100k/year.
Taxes take half of that. You have 50k left
VAT takes 20% of that. You have 40k left.
If you want to buy a car there's an additional VAT of ~20%. If you want fuel it's 8/gal. You pay property tax, you pay for private healthcare because the public healthcare is clogged up.
You don't have a lot of money left when all is said and done.
From personal experience (a Brit engineer living in US for the last 17 yrs, but still working with a lot of UK colleagues), the assumption that European salaries are only 50% of US is a bit of a stretch. In my industry I would say UK salaries are about 25% less than you would get in the US for a comparable position, and some of that delta is then made up through additional fringe benefits, etc. The VAT vs US Sales Tax thing is a big difference though, and the general point is correct...it is harder to afford an M3/4 in Europe than in the US. I can relatively easily afford it right now, but if I was doing the same job for my company but based in the UK, I don't know that I could justify the cost.
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