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      10-01-2020, 10:07 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyleb350 View Post
Is it really a different version of the engine if all that's changed is the redline? I guess if you get into the nitty gritty...
If you look at my second post in this thread, I elaborated more.

The point is, it costs more to develop and produce two different things - especially complex things like engines - than it does one thing. Even small differences (including software differences - if in fact that's all it would be which, as I say, is speculative) add cost, so the more commonality, the easier it is to make the business case. You have to remember that there are probably no shortage of board members or shareholders who would have preferred to see the manual transmission disappear entirely. Why tempt fate by getting fancy and trying to diverge from the what's already being developed for the volume model?
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      10-01-2020, 11:15 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
I prefer a proven 6MT than a 7MT that does not function correctly. One of the worst things you can have in transmissions is two gears that get confused between themselves as that is the path to a money shift.
The F80 6MT is not very good. Rubbery is the term that comes to mind when I think about it. Porsche manual transmissions on the other hand. Drool.
So I don't know if it can be characterized as not very good. Because I think that is just a BMW trait. Their gearbox has always been "rubbery" and it seems like that is their MO. Again, some people definitely prefer that feel vs. the super direct and tightness of a Porsche gearbox.
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      10-01-2020, 11:49 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Because everything comes at a cost, and the product planners concluded that the product would be less successful if the price tag were raised commensurately in accordance with the cost associated of developing a special version of the engine for the manual transmission.
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
If you look at my second post in this thread, I elaborated more.

The point is, it costs more to develop and produce two different things - especially complex things like engines - than it does one thing. Even small differences (including software differences - if in fact that's all it would be which, as I say, is speculative) add cost, so the more commonality, the easier it is to make the business case. You have to remember that there are probably no shortage of board members or shareholders who would have preferred to see the manual transmission disappear entirely. Why tempt fate by getting fancy and trying to diverge from the what's already being developed for the volume model?
I think the point is that they still had to re-map the "base" 473hp tune of the S58 to reduce the torque output versus the tune used on the base X3/4M. So why not take the opportunity to raise the redline a tad while doing so.

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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Speculatively, sure. Regardless of how you get there, you're adding cost to the development of the vehicle. Particularly since the MT car is the entry model, it is absolutely no surprise they would avoid spending any extra money on it.

Also, it can't be said with any certainty that the internal components have been spec'd to handle 7600RPM. While it's not likely that the small increase would cause any harm to the engine (for example, if done via an aftermarket tune), it may still be out-of-spec for some rotating assembly or valve train parts.
Interestingly, the power/torque chart in the S58 technical document shows values for the S58 up to 7,500rpm. All that being said, BMW certainly had their reasons to keep redline at 7,200rpm for the 6MT.
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      10-01-2020, 11:59 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I think the point is that they still had to re-map the "base" 473hp tune of the S58 to reduce the torque output versus the tune used on the X3/4M. So why not take the opportunity to raise the redline a tad in doing so.
That's a fair point, sure. But as you know, generally speaking, the faster the parts move, the more stress they endure. So, it's not a "free" mod from engineering perspective.

Quote:
Interestingly, the power/torque chart in the S58 technical document shows values for the S58 up to 7,500rpm. All that being said, BMW certainly had their reasons to keep redline at 7,200rpm for the 6MT.
They did, and to me the simplest answer is the most probable: it would have costed more to increase it.
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      10-01-2020, 12:05 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
They did, and to me the simplest answer is the most probable: it would have costed more to increase it with little to no performance benefit.
I would just add this bit
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      10-01-2020, 05:14 PM   #28
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There are a multitude of reasons for product spec choices, they may or may not have considered a special version of the engine for the MT.
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      10-01-2020, 05:39 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by stefan View Post
Yep I remember this as well. So we'll find out pretty soon! If it is electronically limited for consistency reasons I am sure this will be an easy software fix. I am not sure how much hp development is left in those last 300rpm though.
Extra hp? zero! Max power is achieved at 6250rpm.
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      10-01-2020, 05:55 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by golf_234 View Post
There are a multitude of reasons for product spec choices, they may or may not have considered a special version of the engine for the MT.
I'am pretty sure they didn't consider this, not for a car with this price point. MT is a few percent of the market potential and they probably had several long discussions with business case reviews on the project steering board to get the a final go for the MT like it is already. Also, max hp is about 1000rpm earlier, adding a few hundred rpm more to the limiter will probably not make it faster. Also: the last few hundred rpms are the most difficult to endure. It allows for 5th gear long full throttle periods near rpm limiter on the autobahn: this destroys engines.
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      10-01-2020, 06:22 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I think the point is that they still had to re-map the "base" 473hp tune of the S58 to reduce the torque output versus the tune used on the base X3/4M. So why not take the opportunity to raise the redline a tad while doing so.

Interestingly, the power/torque chart in the S58 technical document shows values for the S58 up to 7,500rpm. All that being said, BMW certainly had their reasons to keep redline at 7,200rpm for the 6MT.
I understand that the torque/hp graph clearly proofs that the the boost is gone at 7200rpm. Increasing redline a few hundred rpm will probably (alsmost certainly) make the car slower.
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      10-01-2020, 06:48 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoenG View Post
Extra hp? zero! Max power is achieved at 6250rpm.
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Originally Posted by KoenG View Post
I understand that the torque/hp graph clearly proofs that the the boost is gone at 7200rpm. Increasing redline a few hundred rpm will probably (alsmost certainly) make the car slower.
Interesting tidbit here. I am not sure how you interpret the torque/power graphs.

According to the press release, max power for the 503hp (375kW) tune is achieved from 5,600 to 7,200rpm. So if up to 503hp can be had at 7,200rpm, theres definitely margin to make more than 473hp between 7,200 and 7,500rpm. The question is, does BMW want to ?
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      10-01-2020, 07:18 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Interesting tidbit here. I am not sure how you interpret the torque/power graphs.

According to the press release, max power for the 503hp (375kW) tune is achieved from 5,600 to 7,200rpm. So if up to 503hp can be had at 7,200rpm, theres definitely margin to make more than 473hp between 7,200 and 7,500rpm. The question is, does BMW want to ?
Didn't see this torque graph before. This would indeed suggest that there probably are a few more horses hidden after cut off for the MT. Increasing the redline is probably not much more than changing a few parameters in the ECU, so why didn't they do this than? Other driveline parts that are limited in rpm? Very doubtfull, it's usually the transmission, that imposes the limit.

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      10-01-2020, 07:24 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Interesting tidbit here. I am not sure how you interpret the torque/power graphs.

According to the press release, max power for the 503hp (375kW) tune is achieved from 5,600 to 7,200rpm. So if up to 503hp can be had at 7,200rpm, theres definitely margin to make more than 473hp between 7,200 and 7,500rpm. The question is, does BMW want to ?

With this torque curve, I guess we also have an answer to the "boost threshold" question. The X3M is criticised for the lack of torque underneath 2500rpm, which is very visible here also! Nevertheless, for a 3.0 engine, the mid/top range is majestic!
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      10-01-2020, 08:36 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by KoenG View Post
With this torque curve, I guess we also have an answer to the "boost threshold" question. The X3M is criticised for the lack of torque underneath 2500rpm, which is very visible here also! Nevertheless, for a 3.0 engine, the mid/top range is majestic!
Yes indeed, it's seems pretty clear what they did with the S58 over the S55: Lower compression ratio paired with bigger turbos which makes for higher torque and horsepower numbers at the expense of a higher boost threshold and more lag. Not much "new tech" at work here.
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      10-01-2020, 10:52 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Yes indeed, it's seems pretty clear what they did with the S58 over the S55: Lower compression ratio paired with bigger turbos which makes for higher torque and horsepower numbers at the expense of a higher boost threshold and more lag.
A recent complaint by X3M owner concerning its S58's lag https://g20.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1762709
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      10-02-2020, 01:58 AM   #37
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The 7200 redline on the MT is purely because of marketing...they don’t want the market to perceive that the engine on the 6MT version is more capable 👎
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      10-02-2020, 08:11 AM   #38
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Extra hp? zero! Max power is achieved at 6250rpm.
LOL well there you go. The lower redline is better for long term reliability then.
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      10-02-2020, 08:50 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
If you look at my second post in this thread, I elaborated more.

The point is, it costs more to develop and produce two different things - especially complex things like engines - than it does one thing. Even small differences (including software differences - if in fact that's all it would be which, as I say, is speculative) add cost, so the more commonality, the easier it is to make the business case. You have to remember that there are probably no shortage of board members or shareholders who would have preferred to see the manual transmission disappear entirely. Why tempt fate by getting fancy and trying to diverge from the what's already being developed for the volume model?
I agree. Huge costs are incurred with each component variation from standard. With this holding more power up top over the S55, I'm sure many are hoping for a software tweak for a safe extra 300 RPMs (if it's indeed confirmed it can go higher).
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      10-02-2020, 01:04 PM   #40
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Time to geek out a bit. I believe there would indeed a bit more performance to be had through a higher redline with the 6MT given its gear ratios. From the S58 technical doc, we know the S58 can still theoretically make ~460hp (~345kW) up to 7,500rpm.

Using the gear ratios published in the press release, we can find the RPM in the next gear when shifting at redline. Knowing that torque plateaus at 406lb-ft from 2,650 to 6,130rpm, we can calculate the power in the next gear. As you can see, the starting power falls quite significantly below 460hp in the lower gears:
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      10-02-2020, 02:55 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
The 7 speeds are not progress, they are merely something to confuse the feeble minded and get better consumption

Porsche puts their 6 speeds in their GT cars, no 7 speeds there.

There is no 7 speed in cars that brings the driving experience forward. The one in the C7 Vette is also garbage

I'm happy BMW has stuck with the 6MT that works well and not plagued us with a shifter where you mistake 5th for 7th like other cases
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The F80 6MT is not very good. Rubbery is the term that comes to mind when I think about it. Porsche manual transmissions on the other hand. Drool.
Earlier this week I drove my dad's 991.2 Carrera with 7MT for about 80 miles and I honestly do not like the shifting feel of that transmission very much. Porsche's 6 speed manuals are my all time favorite but the 7MT has a rubbery feel and it likes to be shifted a little slowly. Rushed shifts are not as satisfying as a Cayman's 6 speed and nowhere near as good as the 6 speed in the GT3. I'd put my old F80 M3's manual shifter and clutch feel above his 991.2 Carrera with zero hesitation. Some of that advantage comes from the weighted shift knob in the M3 but the actual feel going into and out of each gear is still a lot less satisfying to me since the Porsche is a cable shift mechanism rather than a metal rod going right into the transmission.

Also, the 7th gear ratio has absolutely zero passing power at California highway speeds leaving you to constantly drop down to 6th in the Carrera. I will always, always trade a bit of fuel economy for being able to pass while remaining in top gear and avoiding the time wasted shifting before beginning to accelerate. In Germany where you can cruise at 90mph or even 120mph I can see a lot more value in that 7th gear ratio. Over here, you can keep it.
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      10-02-2020, 03:02 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remonster View Post
Earlier this week I drove my dad's 991.2 Carrera with 7MT for about 80 miles and I honestly do not like the shifting feel of that transmission very much. Porsche's 6 speed manuals are my all time favorite but the 7MT has a rubbery feel and it likes to be shifted a little slowly. Rushed shifts are not as satisfying as a Cayman's 6 speed and nowhere near as good as the 6 speed in the GT3. I'd put my old F80 M3's manual shifter and clutch feel above his 991.2 Carrera with zero hesitation. Some of that advantage comes from the weighted shift knob in the M3 but the actual feel going into and out of each gear is still a lot less satisfying to me since the Porsche is a cable shift mechanism rather than a metal rod going right into the transmission.

Also, the 7th gear ratio has absolutely zero passing power at California highway speeds leaving you to constantly drop down to 6th in the Carrera. I will always, always trade a bit of fuel economy for being able to pass while remaining in top gear and avoiding the time wasted shifting before beginning to accelerate. In Germany where you can cruise at 90mph or even 120mph I can see a lot more value in that 7th gear ratio. Over here, you can keep it.
Thank you

And now in the 992 they have a really weird 'manual' which uses the same box as the PDK. Feel was not likely an improvement.

I couldn't agree more about long gearing. Having to drop a few gears every time you want to pass someone on the highway is annoying.
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      10-02-2020, 05:52 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Time to geek out a bit. I believe there would indeed a bit more performance to be had through a higher redline with the 6MT given its gear ratios. From the S58 technical doc, we know the S58 can still theoretically make ~460hp (~345kW) up to 7,500rpm.

Using the gear ratios published in the press release, we can find the RPM in the next gear when shifting at redline. Knowing that torque plateaus at 406lb-ft from 2,650 to 6,130rpm, we can calculate the power in the next gear. As you can see, the starting power falls quite significantly below 460hp in the lower gears:
I don't believe that's any issue at all, when you shift up, you always land in the 650Nm zone and is the torque that makes you accelerate. E.g. put the car in 2nd gear and rev from 1000 up to 7200rpm, the accelerometer will follow the torque curve, not the power curve.
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      10-02-2020, 06:54 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by KoenG View Post
I don't believe that's any issue at all, when you shift up, you always land in the 650Nm zone and is the torque that makes you accelerate. E.g. put the car in 2nd gear and rev from 1000 up to 7200rpm, the accelerometer will follow the torque curve, not the power curve.
That's not quite how it works...

While your statement is true for a given gear ratio, it isn't when that gear ratio is changed. Acceleration can be defined with the following formula: a=P/(mv). So for a given road speed, the gear ratio for which the engine makes the most power at that road speed, will provide the most acceleration.
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