[Wills2]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

It's only attainable in a few countries around the world. In most of Europe, if you have an M3 you are a wealthy person.

When your income is half (at most) what it is in the US, then you are taxed ~60% of that, then out of the 40% remaining you still have to pay ~20% VAT plus 70% tax on gasoline, property taxes, etc, well, you're basically living with 30% of your income.

Let's break it out in numbers.
In the US let's say you make 200k/year. In Europe let's assume you can find the same job and you're lucky that it pays you ~50%. Let's say 100k/year.
Taxes take half of that. You have 50k left
VAT takes 20% of that. You have 40k left.
If you want to buy a car there's an additional VAT of ~20%. If you want fuel it's 8/gal. You pay property tax, you pay for private healthcare because the public healthcare is clogged up.
You don't have a lot of money left when all is said and done.

I think it was one of your countrymen that said its' better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.

[///Pip]

The G80/82 M3/4 base model starts from US$300,000 here in Singapore!!

Factory options are also taxed the same way! Factory fitted Carbon ceramics costs US$15k

[drjoe66]

all people that constantly complain about the taxes here is the USA should read this thread. But the electric car nonsense going on especially in Germany is crazy. I am a scientist with 30+ years in energy and automotive research. Selling electric cars as the climate savers is absolutely ridiculous. There are a lot of data to back this up. But if you say such things, you get killed by the media and the social media in Europe, particularly in Germany. Rant over.....

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Flamingi

Lol never saw that much BS written in a single post.

Let's see. Perhaps it is your post with is full of misinformation.

Originally Posted by Flamingi

Only true in certain areas (e.g. Computer Science stuff in SF), on average the wage in the EU is like 20% less than in the US (depending on which country of Europe you compare it to), so if you earn $200k in the US, you will earn $160k=€135k in Europe. Factoring in cost of living (mainly health care) it actually is less than the wage in Europe - but more to that later.

My company (not mine, the one I work for) sends people to Europe every blue moon. We won't send americans anywhere as expats because they are way too expensive, but if someone really wants to go sometimes we send them as a local contract at around 50% of their US salary.

Tables that show salary averages after tax by country are widely available, for example here:
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livin...ngs?itemId=105
The US is more than twice the PIGS, so even more than I thought. [for reference I am a citizen of one of the PIGS]

Originally Posted by Flamingi

Just plain wrong. Let's look at Germany, which is above average in taxation. If you earn €135k you are in the highest tax bracket, you will pay €40.8k in taxes, €7.7k in pension (like your 401k I think), €1k in unemplyoment insurance, €4.4k in health insurance and €1k in care insurance. This means based on €135k gross income, the net income is €80k ($94k). But, you have free health insurace, no copay. You will be paid your full wage up to 12 months and after that 60% if you get sick. You get paid 60% of your last wage if you loose your job (up to 12 months). You will get €3.3k per month in pension (it's capped at 3.3k) once you retire. All that included in those measly 40% you pay, Just being in the hospital a single time would probably cost more in the US, not speaking about any major health problems where you rack up millions in medical debt - even though you have insurance.

Compare that to the US, where you would have a take home salary of $132k, but you still need to pay health insurance (premium + deductible + out-of-pocket costs + copayments), 401k, unemployment insurance and everything else regarding social security. You will notice you get to a very similar available income very fast. Add to that the extremely high cost of living in urban areas and you will come out to less purchase power.

Obviously tax rates of 52% or higher do not equate to 52% of your salary gone, as it's a progressive tax rate, but it's close enough to give you an idea vs the US where it is also progressive.

Originally Posted by Flamingi

There is no VAT on you income lol, you pay VAT on the product. So you're still at 94k of net income.

I know. Once you're done with income taxes now you pay ~20% VAT out of the remainder, that's why my example goes from 50k to 40k of available income.

Originally Posted by Flamingi

No it's not additional, it's just the normal VAT, which is included in every product. BTW prices in Europe already include this VAT, so the 100k for a car in Europe are just 100k - no additional stuff. Just some extra cost for high emissions vehicles (That's in a few countries like Nordics or France). Fuel really depends on the country, but its around $8/gal (keep in mind it's better fuel, $8/gal gets you Aral Ultimate 102 comparable to 98 in the US, for about $6/gal you can get premium, for $5/gal standard)

I didn't say the sticker price on a car had VAT and an extra VAT added to it. I said cars did, which is correct.
M8c in the US, 144k$ without including 6% tax --> 152k out the door
M8c in Spain for example, costs 144kE without tax plus 21% VAT PLUS 15% car-VAT leaving you at a cool 195kE --> 230k$.
You can see for yourself here:https://www.km77.com/coches/bmw/seri...an-coupe/datos

Originally Posted by Flamingi

Property tax is actually less than in the US (on average). You don't pay for private healthcare, 90% have a public health insurance (the benefit of private insurance is, that it's cheaper when you're younger, but it get's much more expensive once you get older. Also, private health insurance might pay for non standard treatment. Public health insurance might not be availabel if you're self-employed) - which btw is not clogged up. In case of an emergency of course you will not sit around waiting for hours, care is taken of you based on priority. If you only have a small scratch - sure you'll probably have to wait, but if you have a serious incident you will be taken care of immediately. Getting a doctors appointment is usually just a waiting time of a couple days maybe 2 weeks - for anything non priority of course. If you're actually sick and need an appointment very soon you will get it in like the next 2 days (and if you need it right now, you can go to the ER). Everything I just mentioned of course without any copay. If you have a scratch somewhere - no extra costs. Broken arm - no extra costs. Diabetes - no extra costs. Giving birth - no extra costs. Cancer - no extra costs.

Healthcare costs are indeed an advantage in Europe vs the US. At least in Spain almost anyone who is not starving to death will have private insurance on top of the free one so they don't have to wait six months for an operation.


Conclusion:
If you like cars, don't have cancer or diabetes or pregnant, aren't a person who will take 12 months off work because they are ''depressed*'', then the US is a pretty damn good place to buy cars and live.
We are not in the broken-arm forum, or the childbirth forum, or the cancer forum, or the diabetes forum, or the forum for people who will scam the government saying they're depressed so they can live their life in permanent vacations (you come back to work a single day after your first year of vacations is up and obviously you don't want to work when you could be at home watching netflix, so you become depressed again and take another 12 months off, rinse and repeat). It is a car forum.

*Depression can be a real thing and can be really serious, but we all have more than 2 neurons which are sufficient to conclude that if it's easy to get 12 months off work with full pay by saying you are depressed, people will take advantage of that and milk the system.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

aren't a lazy bum

Damnit....

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by dgm3

The taxes to register a used car are significanlty lower and in addition are decreasing by 10% every year after the first registration. So I believe an E92 M3 which is at least 7 years old should be relatively inexpensive to register... There is however an additional (minor)yearly tax (160 Euro) because of the co2 level.

Not really, the registration tax is 4400€ and the recurrent yearly tax is 2750€ for an M3 2013. The only way to keep taxes moderate is limit the engine displacement to 3.0: the F80 from 2016 has a registration tax of 1820€ and a recurrent yearly 892€. The new G80 has a disproportional high first registration because the CO² emission is a clear provocation in 2020 (248g/km and F80 was 194g/km): registration 11400€ and recurrently 1035€.

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by JCZ5

@Flamingi very well put! Sometimes headlines and generalizations have a way of skewing the facts. But the benefits you get in the EU is phenomenal.

Yes, when you don't want to work or get ill (or pretend you are) it is. And all this is being paid by the 50% of the working population.

My gross cost for my employer ~185k€/year. My net disposable income, is 52k€/year. Since I guess that in most posts here, we seem to forget that there is also about 40% social contribution to be taken in account. Then the VAT is 21%, there are additional one-shot registration taxes and yearly recurrent taxes and fuel is extra taxed to triple the end user price. Not very social, certainly when the government is sponsoring idiotic vehicles like 745e or X5 45e on the other hand. Tht's not called socialism, but communism.

[Flamingi]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Let's see. Perhaps it is your post with is full of misinformation.

A check of your claims shows they are wrong (and I'm not talking about just a little bit off). I'm getting bored replying to your comments and I think this discussion is not worth my time. There's no reason to continue this any further and frankly, this is not the right place anyway.

Enjoy your car in the US while you can and the orange cheeto will take care of everything else in the mean time, maybe even for 4 more years, but I sincerely hope for everyone that will not happen...

[JCZ5]

Originally Posted by KoenG

Yes, when you don't want to work or get ill (or pretend you are) it is. And all this is being paid by the 50% of the working population.

My gross cost for my employer ~185k€/year. My net disposable income, is 52k€/year. Since I guess that in most posts here, we seem to forget that there is also about 40% social contribution to be taken in account. Then the VAT is 21%, there are additional one-shot registration taxes and yearly recurrent taxes and fuel is extra taxed to triple the end user price. Not very social, certainly when the government is sponsoring idiotic vehicles like 745e or X5 45e on the other hand. Tht's not called socialism, but communism.

You should probably try and get citizenship in Monaco 🇲🇨. You will be much happier

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by JCZ5

You should probably try and get citizenship in Monaco 🇲🇨. You will be much happier

With my income, I'am entitled to rent a small cardboard box far away from the casino and harbor.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by KoenG

Yes, when you don't want to work or get ill (or pretend you are) it is. And all this is being paid by the 50% of the working population.

My gross cost for my employer ~185k€/year. My net disposable income, is 52k€/year. Since I guess that in most posts here, we seem to forget that there is also about 40% social contribution to be taken in account. Then the VAT is 21%, there are additional one-shot registration taxes and yearly recurrent taxes and fuel is extra taxed to triple the end user price. Not very social, certainly when the government is sponsoring idiotic vehicles like 745e or X5 45e on the other hand. Tht's not called socialism, but communism.

Europe's benefits are absolutely wonderful when you plan to not work so you can take advantage of them.

If you are a poor bastard who plans on working hard you are taxed to kingdom come to pay for all the benefits of the liars and crooks milking the system.

I'll take the orange man any day if he avoids the US, one of the last bastions of work-being-worth-a-damn, turning into Europe

[dgm3]

Originally Posted by KoenG

Not really, the registration tax is 4400€ and the recurrent yearly tax is 2750€ for an M3 2013. The only way to keep taxes moderate is limit the engine displacement to 3.0: the F80 from 2016 has a registration tax of 1820€ and a recurrent yearly 892€. The new G80 has a disproportional high first registration because the CO² emission is a clear provocation in 2020 (248g/km and F80 was 194g/km): registration 11400€ and recurrently 1035€.

This thread started about the taxes in France on new cars so I further commented on the taxes in France on used cars... You referred to taxes in Belgium, more specifically in the Flanders region because some of the taxes especially the one for the first registration differ in Belgium from region to region.
Just show how different taxes can be depending the EU country or even sometimes the region of a given country.

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by dgm3

This thread started about the taxes in France on new cars so I further commented on the taxes in France on used cars... You referred to taxes in Belgium, more specifically in the Flanders region because some of the taxes especially the one for the first registration differ in Belgium from region to region.
Just show how different taxes can be depending the EU country or even sometimes the region of a given country.

ok, clear!

The lack of any uniformity in approach renders the taxation totally rediculous.

[dgm3]

Originally Posted by KoenG

Not really, the registration tax is 4400€ and the recurrent yearly tax is 2750€ for an M3 2013. The only way to keep taxes moderate is limit the engine displacement to 3.0: the F80 from 2016 has a registration tax of 1820€ and a recurrent yearly 892€. The new G80 has a disproportional high first registration because the CO² emission is a clear provocation in 2020 (248g/km and F80 was 194g/km): registration 11400€ and recurrently 1035€.

The competition version with the auto transmission is slightly lower on CO2 emission (234 vs 248g/km). What is the impact, if any , on the registration tax in Flanders region ?

[emix84]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

How do you guys think the new C63 will do with its 2.0L 4 cylinder hybrid? Significantly higher sales in Europe compared to M3?

Some countries tax heavily on CO2 like the Netherlands, perhaps there yes but in the rest of EU definitely no. It is very very risky of MB to do this.

Also why has this thread turned into US vs EU? Both have their virtues and vices, we also have different views and different ways of life. It's ok to be different.

I for one don't mind paying taxes as I get a lot out of them. If it were not for free higher education I would not have gotten this far in life, so I am thankful for that and don't mind giving back so others, too, can achieve their potential. Americans have different attitudes, they are much more self reliant and have a do it yourself culture, which is fine as well. Doesn't mean one is wrong and one is right, just different.

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by dgm3

The competition version with the auto transmission is slightly lower on CO2 emission (234 vs 248g/km). What is the impact, if any , on the registration tax in Flanders region ?

8706€ and 999€ recurrently.

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by emix84

Some countries tax heavily on CO2 like the Netherlands, perhaps there yes but in the rest of EU definitely no. It is very very risky of MB to do this.

Also why has this thread turned into US vs EU? Both have their virtues and vices, we also have different views and different ways of life. It's ok to be different.

I for one don't mind paying taxes as I get a lot out of them. If it were not for free higher education I would not have gotten this far in life, so I am thankful for that and don't mind giving back so others, too, can achieve their potential. Americans have different attitudes, they are much more self reliant and have a do it yourself culture, which is fine as well. Doesn't mean one is wrong and one is right, just different.

When you're a socialist, you'll like it here. When you are a liberal, you'll not. In the former you're ok that the government uses your money to invest and develop the community, the liberal believes that the individual spending is a better mechanism to steer the economy.

A socialist society produces buildings, hospitals and schools, the liberal one also and on top develops iPhones, M3s and oled 105 inch flatscreens.

Nevertheless atypical that the socialists fans here drive 911 and 7 series which are pure symbols of capatalism.

[mbanck]

Originally Posted by KoenG

A socialist society produces buildings, hospitals and schools, the liberal one also and on top develops iPhones, M3s and oled 105 inch flatscreens.

What do you mean with "M3s" here, it almost sounds like you claim the BMW M3 was developed in a liberal country?

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by mbanck

What do you mean with "M3s" here, it almost sounds like you claim the BMW M3 was developed in a liberal country?

So yes, an M3/4 is certainly an example of a product designed to endulge the individuals wants and aspirations which would probably not exist in a dominant social market. It's clear enough that the M3/4 is not made to preserve the earth or fit in normal 30mph traffic to school or the shopping mall.

Germany also develops these cars because they allow excesses in cars more than other socialist countries (Germany still excels in Maschinenbau). Also the premium manufacturers succeed in selling global wide. When Trump would succeed in keeping BMW out of North America, the G80 would have probably been a significant different car.

[emix84]

Originally Posted by KoenG

When you're a socialist, you'll like it here.

A socialist society produces buildings, hospitals and schools, the liberal one also and on top develops iPhones, M3s and oled 105 inch flatscreens.

Nevertheless atypical that the socialists fans here drive 911 and 7 series which are pure symbols of capatalism.

Being ok with paying taxes for public services like education and healthcare does not make one a socialist... Anyway, we're going offtopic.