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      12-23-2017, 12:54 PM   #265
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I feel that SCOTT26 basically just said the new M3 will have AWD system...with 2wd mode
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      12-23-2017, 02:28 PM   #266
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I feel that SCOTT26 basically just said the new M3 will have AWD system...with 2wd mode
He basically says a lot of things.
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      12-23-2017, 04:19 PM   #267
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I feel that SCOTT26 basically just said the new M3 will have AWD system...with 2wd mode
I really hope so.
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      12-23-2017, 09:05 PM   #268
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Why would anyone want awd in an m3. The current m3 has already strayed so far from a purist drivers car why would you want it to stray further into just being an rs4, the car we used to point and laugh at for being a technological marvel of 0 fun.
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      12-24-2017, 07:30 AM   #269
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Why would anyone want awd in an m3. The current m3 has already strayed so far from a purist drivers car why would you want it to stray further into just being an rs4, the car we used to point and laugh at being a technological marvel of 0 fun.
Because you'll have the ability to put it in RWD, and with the Mx-Drive you'll be able to have even more fun in the snow & rain.

That seems like a very easy conclusion to me.
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      12-25-2017, 07:57 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post

I used to drive BMW because it was different. It represented a company who stuck to its respective strengths and had a loyal following as a result. You say why aren’t other manufacturers derided by reusing things over and over...well maybe that’s one of the ways BMW used to be distinguishable in the car industry. By coming up with new and better ideas for each generation. Not just recycling old ones....like the same engine for multiple generations of the M5, and similar plans for the next M2/3/4. It’s just not very inspiring.
Word.

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Originally Posted by Who's on first View Post
Because you'll have the ability to put it in RWD, and with the Mx-Drive you'll be able to have even more fun in the snow & rain.

That seems like a very easy conclusion to me.
Some of us don't want transfer case trickery with added weight and dull shifting coupled with ZFat. Make the car pure RWD with the same CFRP technology, and it will have 100kg less in curb weight which will dominate the segment.

M used to teach drivers how to respect a high HP RWD car. My mere E36 M3 came "only" with 321hp from the factory but it never got traction control- you were and are always alone with just a mechanical locking diff and ABS. This translates to raw excitement that no modern car can offer without certain push of a button. (I am not saying traction control is bad; it is a necessity for safety for general public. The car's raw performance nonetheless was always accessible in 90s)

Nowadays it's turned into a simple mash-the-throttle-and-blame-DSC/tyre when the car spins off, which is why I think that the turnover rates of M cars are so high; you buy and sell the car within 3 years because you don't learn different aspects of the car's driveability for traction control does everything for you, and it makes the experience that much duller. Smart move from BMW for sale if intended.
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      12-25-2017, 10:49 AM   #271
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You are comparing the wrong sport.

Regulations are usually there to keep the cost under control, as most indy teams would have no chance to compete against factory teams in that sense.

Furthermore, rallies are based on deep tread tyres with less than optimal road surface conditions and slippery off roads where AWD benefits generally outweigh lighter drivetrain of RWD or FWD.

For endurance races where all of them are held on circuits with smooth surface, however, 50kg weight addition to the drivetrain will cost on back straights and hugely hurt cornering capabilities. Remember these vehicles gave an arm and a leg to get the weight down to 1200kg (e.g. Bentley continental GT.); for them it is better thus to focus on aerodynamics and mechanical grip using widest tyres and track width of suspension within the regulations. Not to mention significantly more fuel used in the long run. Professionals manage traction by their driving skills, not by car's traction control and gimmicks.

Now if you want to put priority on practicality AWD was and is always the answer since audi quattro proved that in German winters. I believe M3's target back in the 90s and early 00s was making Ferrari and porsche equivalents, but the brand has since diluted to follow Mercedes examples.
You’re overthinking it. Look at the regs, AWD was banned from F1, endurance and sprint racing because few manufacturers had the technology and it was deemed an unfair advantage (look at Audi’s history of racing in IMSA and touring cars).

The thing is simply not allowed in many forms of racing, period. Regulations also stipulate a minimum weight for the car, and it would not be difficult to bake-in an AWD setup from the beginning and still achieve the weight target. Then you’d have a car that weighs same as the others on the grid, but has better traction in low grip situations (rain etc.) or slow corners. Historically every time someone figured out how to accomplish this the results were either to ban the technology, or to force the entire grid to match it.

Don’t misunderstand me, I love the M3 the way it is, and as long as it stays under 500-some BHP I want it to stay RWD.
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      12-25-2017, 11:05 AM   #272
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Which is fine - I’ve said many times that they will continue to sell many, many cars. It’s just possible I won’t be doing that in the future, because there are a lot of other options out there.

And I never used to consider other brands.
So what other brands are you considering for a true 4/5 seater which can do the practical thing and the track thing as well as the M3?

If there weren’t showstoppers such as questionable reliability and lack of a manual transmission I’d say the Alfa QF. What else is there? Camaro if you can take the stupid styling, Mustang 350 if you’re ok with 2 doors...

I’m curious what your choice would be.
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      12-25-2017, 07:11 PM   #273
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AWD in an M car is absolutely sacrilegious

BMW, please, make this car weigh in around 3000 lbs...kthx
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      12-25-2017, 09:16 PM   #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
So what other brands are you considering for a true 4/5 seater which can do the practical thing and the track thing as well as the M3?

If there weren’t showstoppers such as questionable reliability and lack of a manual transmission I’d say the Alfa QF. What else is there? Camaro if you can take the stupid styling, Mustang 350 if you’re ok with 2 doors...

I’m curious what your choice would be.
It’s a good question - my guess is that I will end up in a P car again, probably a 911 because it’s slightly more practical than the Cayman was. I don’t need the 4 doors of the F80, I genuinely think it looks better than the M4.

I also liked the PDK very slightly better than the DCT I have now, but I am also really not excited about the move to ZF 8 speeds autos for M cars in the next generation. I’m sure they will make it as good as they can, but there’s an appreciable (albeit subjective) difference from a feeling perspective when comparing one to a DCT/PDK. I just like the dual clutch options better.
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Last edited by dmboone25; 12-26-2017 at 02:17 PM..
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      12-25-2017, 11:24 PM   #275
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Quote:
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It’s a good question - my guess is that I will end up in a P car again, probably a 911 because it’s slightly more practical than the Catman was. I don’t need the 4 doors of the F80, I genuinely think it looks better than the M4.

I also liked the PDK very slightly better than the DCT I have now, but I am also really not excited about the move to ZF 8 speeds autos for M cars in the next generation. I’m sure they will make it as good as they can, but there’s an appreciable (albeit subjective) difference from a feeling perspective when comparing one to a DCT/PDK. I just like the dual clutch options better.
If 4/5 seats weren’t on the menu, I’d go Porsche or Vette.

I fully understand why you wouldn’t want a ZF8 in your emotional car.
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      12-26-2017, 02:17 AM   #276
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Porsche or Corvette?

Interesting.

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Originally Posted by adc View Post
If 4/5 seats weren’t on the menu, I’d go Porsche or Vette.

I fully understand why you wouldn’t want a ZF8 in your emotional car.
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      01-02-2018, 10:11 AM   #277
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Did they really get rid of the iconic M3 "Hips"?????
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      01-02-2018, 11:56 AM   #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
You are comparing the wrong sport.

Regulations are usually there to keep the cost under control, as most indy teams would have no chance to compete against factory teams in that sense.

Furthermore, rallies are based on deep tread tyres with less than optimal road surface conditions and slippery off roads where AWD benefits generally outweigh lighter drivetrain of RWD or FWD.

For endurance races where all of them are held on circuits with smooth surface, however, 50kg weight addition to the drivetrain will cost on back straights and hugely hurt cornering capabilities. Remember these vehicles gave an arm and a leg to get the weight down to 1200kg (e.g. Bentley continental GT.); for them it is better thus to focus on aerodynamics and mechanical grip using widest tyres and track width of suspension within the regulations. Not to mention significantly more fuel used in the long run. Professionals manage traction by their driving skills, not by car's traction control and gimmicks.

Now if you want to put priority on practicality AWD was and is always the answer since audi quattro proved that in German winters. I believe M3's target back in the 90s and early 00s was making Ferrari and porsche equivalents, but the brand has since diluted to follow Mercedes examples.
You’re overthinking it. Look at the regs, AWD was banned from F1, endurance and sprint racing because few manufacturers had the technology and it was deemed an unfair advantage (look at Audi’s history of racing in IMSA and touring cars).

The thing is simply not allowed in many forms of racing, period. Regulations also stipulate a minimum weight for the car, and it would not be difficult to bake-in an AWD setup from the beginning and still achieve the weight target. Then you’d have a car that weighs same as the others on the grid, but has better traction in low grip situations (rain etc.) or slow corners. Historically every time someone figured out how to accomplish this the results were either to ban the technology, or to force the entire grid to match it.

Don’t misunderstand me, I love the M3 the way it is, and as long as it stays under 500-some BHP I want it to stay RWD.
So what drivetrain does the ACR Viper , 911GT2 RS, Corvetter Z06 and upcoming Zr-1, AMG GTR , Huracan Performante have ??? I'll give you a hint it's not AWD . RWD kicks AWD million dollar HyperCar assess on track all day long despite in some cases almost double the horsepower for AWD. Audi's race cars including the R8 are .... RWD . GTR racecar rwd . AWD is not better regulations aside ,the facts seem to disagree with you .
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      01-02-2018, 03:15 PM   #279
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Don't mean to derail the thread but why is the M performance line a joke? I'm guessing you are referring to your previous m235i? I own one and love it. It's my first bmw but I think it's a great intro to the brand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
I can appreciate your position as a BMW employee - you’re required to drink the Kool-Aid, but I am not.

The M performance line is a joke - I can say this because I had one. It was the worst BMW I’ve ever had (currently on #7). It’s also a blatant copycat of the Audi S line - there’s even some BMW issued literature that shows the lack of originality by referencing the S line at Audi. This is innovation?

I used to drive BMW because it was different. It represented a company who stuck to its respective strengths and had a loyal following as a result. You say why aren’t other manufacturers derided by reusing things over and over...well maybe that’s one of the ways BMW used to be distinguishable in the car industry. By coming up with new and better ideas for each generation. Not just recycling old ones....like the same engine for multiple generations of the M5, and similar plans for the next M2/3/4. It’s just not very inspiring.

I will continue to vote with my wallet, so we will see how you guys do in the future on that front.
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      01-02-2018, 03:48 PM   #280
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Don't mean to derail the thread but why is the M performance line a joke? I'm guessing you are referring to your previous m235i? I own one and love it. It's my first bmw but I think it's a great intro to the brand.
I think it's circumstantial - when I got the 235, it was my 6th BMW. My previous two cars had been 135s (one N54, one N55). The car was marketed as a true competitor or follow up to the 1M...and that, it simply wasn't. I liked the older E82s better in almost every aspect.

I can absolutely see why someone new to the brand or RWD would like it - but it was a complete let down for me. I was expecting something much closer to a "real" M, and always felt like the car was nowhere near that.

All my own fault - I bought into the hype and ordered one of the very first cars to be delivered on the forum. Bought it sight unseen and having no test drive. Those are mistakes I haven't and won't make again, because the character of the car was completely inconsistent with my expectations for it. So I got rid of it after about 18 months and got a 981 instead, which exceeded my expectations. It all worked out in the end...I just don't agree how the car was introduced in terms of what the M perf. line was supposed to represent. It's an Audi S line, but from the BMW side. Which is totally fine and good - but that's not what I was expecting when I got it.
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      01-07-2018, 11:39 AM   #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
I think it's circumstantial - when I got the 235, it was my 6th BMW. My previous two cars had been 135s (one N54, one N55). The car was marketed as a true competitor or follow up to the 1M...and that, it simply wasn't. I liked the older E82s better in almost every aspect.

I can absolutely see why someone new to the brand or RWD would like it - but it was a complete let down for me. I was expecting something much closer to a "real" M, and always felt like the car was nowhere near that.

All my own fault - I bought into the hype and ordered one of the very first cars to be delivered on the forum. Bought it sight unseen and having no test drive. Those are mistakes I haven't and won't make again, because the character of the car was completely inconsistent with my expectations for it. So I got rid of it after about 18 months and got a 981 instead, which exceeded my expectations. It all worked out in the end...I just don't agree how the car was introduced in terms of what the M perf. line was supposed to represent. It's an Audi S line, but from the BMW side. Which is totally fine and good - but that's not what I was expecting when I got it.
Interesting how different markets perceive cars, in the UK the M235i was never seen as a replacement or competitor for the 1M it was just a coupe version of the M135i and was marketed as an M performance product not a full fat M car.

I agree that the M performance models are disappointing they don't seem to offer anything more than the M sport models other than a bit more power, the drive seems pretty much the same it's a big jump in feel to the M cars in my view.

BMW wanted to match Audi I guess with their "S-line" "S" and "RS" line up so went "M sport" "M performance" "M".
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      02-01-2018, 01:40 PM   #282
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must haves : less weight, more grip/less spikey engine and the rest can be whatever...

nice to have: improved interior styling, better sound
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      02-01-2018, 01:41 PM   #283
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I really love RWD but if it comes with the same switchable AWD like the M5 is going to be a winner.
For my climate this will be what I am looking for.
bring it in and I will be all over it. (hopefully will have a nicer interior, better materials and a beautiful exterior)
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      02-01-2018, 01:42 PM   #284
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No more dkg transmission....the active cruise control have won on the sportivity...
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      02-01-2018, 01:42 PM   #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasi_M3 View Post
must haves : less weight, more grip/less spikey engine and the rest can be whatever...

nice to have: improved interior styling, better sound
Would be very impressed if they drop weight again for this next generation considering they did that last gen. One can hope!
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      02-01-2018, 01:51 PM   #286
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Looks like AWD testing in snow.
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