[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by Asymmetrick

With all due respect, a large fraction of the mixed reviews on the M4 CSL come from the car being reviewed in cold/wet winter weather in one specific country.

Unfortunately, these reviewers never had the good sense to adjust their assessment according to the poor conditions they tested the car in. We hear things from them like "the car looses traction" and "the suspension is harsh" when they test the car at ~7°C/45°F on B road on a rainy day. Really?!? Are you actually surprised by this result... What about having a go on a dry race track –or at least a nice road– on a sunny day? Is that too much to ask for a high performance car review from an automotive journalist?

This is why reviews from other regions tend to be much more positive on the CSL. Is it a perfect car? Of course no, but the performance you get at this price point is just awesome (for the price of a CSL, you would only get a comparably-equipped 911 Carrera S in Canada, which is a vastly inferior car by most metrics).

Important lesson for BMW: Don't release high performance M cars in the fall/winter because you can't count on some automotive journalists to do their due diligence.

Totally agree with this.

[HudsonHornett]

Also, let's not forget that we did also get reviews like this...

https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-...-of-2022/46646

[Asymmetrick]

Originally Posted by HudsonHornett

Also, let's not forget that we did also get reviews like this...

https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-...-of-2022/46646

Yes, I did see this one a few months ago. "Favorite car of the year" is certainly something to celebrate for the CSL.

Sometimes I hope that BMW would give the M4 CSL once more to automotive journalists in the middle of next summer to do a "proper" review of the car. Road conditions in Nov/Dec are just not appropriate to test a performance car like the CSL. Could be done on a nice track in the middle of July. I am sure this would change the narrative completely on the car.

[DO444]

You would have to be a moron to buy this over a gt3 touring, sorry.

That’s almost identical to the price I saw one for a few weeks ago, brand new (sold of course).

[jpdchicago]

Originally Posted by DO444

You would have to be a moron to buy this over a gt3 touring, sorry.

That’s almost identical to the price I saw one for a few weeks ago, brand new (sold of course).

Here we go again. A GT3 touring costs twice as much as a CSL in the US (the largest market by far for the CSL).
Find me a new GT3 touring for $140,000 in the US and I will buy it right away. (Then I can turn around and make $100,000 by flipping it &#128521.
They are priced around $290,000+ here.
So please do your research. There is a black one on cars.com for $299,992 with 38 miles if you want it. And a blue one for $299,998 with 138 miles. But wait, they are both used 2022 models! I will pass.

[DO444]

Originally Posted by jpdchicago

Here we go again. A GT3 touring costs twice as much as a CSL in the US (the largest market by far for the CSL).
Find me a new GT3 touring for $140,000 in the US and I will buy it right away. (Then I can turn around and make $100,000 by flipping it &#128521.
They are priced around $290,000+ here.
So please do your research. There is a black one on cars.com for $299,992 with 38 miles if you want it. And a blue one for $299,998 with 138 miles. But wait, they are both used 2022 models! I will pass.

Well, you clearly have no idea what the heck you’re talking about.

I just watched a gt3 touring sell for $245k brand new.

Classic, misinformed rude internet person tells the world + dog to do their research while spouting nonsense.

Perhaps by “They are priced around $299,992 here.” you meant, “the best I can find or do is $299,992.”

And by that, I can understand your irritation. Maybe you should start by trying to figure out why you think cars.com is the price you should pay for a car.

Honestly, nevermind.
The world needs people who’ll pay more. It’s good for all of us.
Cheers!

[jpdchicago]

Originally Posted by DO444

Well, you clearly have no idea what the heck you’re talking about.

I just watched a gt3 touring sell for $245k brand new.

Classic, misinformed rude internet person tells the world + dog to do their research while spouting nonsense.

Perhaps by “They are priced around $299,992 here.” you meant, “the best I can find or do is $299,992.”

And by that, I can understand your irritation. Maybe you should start by trying to figure out why you think cars.com is the price you should pay for a car.

Honestly, nevermind.
The world needs people who’ll pay more. It’s good for all of us.
Cheers!

Well, no need to get upset about it.$245,000 (the car you mentioned) still stands at $100,000 over the cost of a CSL here in the US ($145,000). Still not fairly comparable in terms of current market price.
And I maintain there are no GT3 touring currently for sale for less than $300,000 for a 2023 model on the US market.
Sorry if I seemed “rude” to you. I am one of the “morons” (your own word) who chose a CSL over a GT3 touring.

[M4nication]

The thing is... These things will sell. I was in the market for a '23 Challenger Redeye Jailbreak before I got ordered my M4 Comp (this will be my first BMW, and first car that isn't a Challenger). People were paying 25k-30k markup on THOSE. Not to even mention the new Demon 170. People are paying 200k markup (or even more) for those. Meaning they're paying 300k+ for them.

The market really is THAT crazy. People who want these cars bad enough and have the money for it, will spend it. The dealerships know that. Even if it means sitting on it a little bit longer.

It sucks, but it's true. I was even lucky to get my M4 Comp for MSRP. Now I just have to wait for it to be built...

[DO444]

Originally Posted by jpdchicago

Well, no need to get upset about it.$245,000 (the car you mentioned) still stands at $100,000 over the cost of a CSL here in the US ($145,000). Still not fairly comparable in terms of current market price.
And I maintain there are no GT3 touring currently for sale for less than $300,000 for a 2023 model on the US market.
Sorry if I seemed “rude” to you. I am one of the “morons” (your own word) who chose a CSL over a GT3 touring.

I’m not upset.
And, you aren’t a moron in my opinion unless you paid $240k for it.

Are you blind though?
This car in this post is selling for $240+.
You can maintain any delusion you want, but the FACT is that gt3 touring are selling for as low as $245k, because I just saw it sell in my local dealership and was on the floor with the guys name who bought it which I still remember but am not going to put here.

Everything I’ve written has been in relation to this car and this post and this dealership, which I would have thought obvious.

I’m not going to say any more about it because you seem to be taking it personal. I hope you enjoy your car whatever you paid for it.

[DO444]

Originally Posted by M4nication

The thing is... These things will sell. I was in the market for a '23 Challenger Redeye Jailbreak before I got ordered my M4 Comp (this will be my first BMW, and first car that isn't a Challenger). People were paying 25k-30k markup on THOSE. Not to even mention the new Demon 170. People are paying 200k markup (or even more) for those. Meaning they're paying 300k+ for them.

The market really is THAT crazy. People who want these cars bad enough and have the money for it, will spend it. The dealerships know that. Even if it means sitting on it a little bit longer.

It sucks, but it's true. I was even lucky to get my M4 Comp for MSRP. Now I just have to wait for it to be built...

That is mind blowing.
Truly.

[kgelfen360]

Originally Posted by DO444

That is mind blowing.
Truly.

Yea I think people betting that last ever gasoline challenger is worth it for collecting purposes.

I have a friend with Ford GT he paid 200k and now probably double of that….

[DO444]

Originally Posted by kgelfen360

Yea I think people betting that last ever gasoline challenger is worth it for collecting purposes.

I have a friend with Ford GT he paid 200k and now probably double of that….

Ahh yea, that’s a Ford GT though.
Kinda different than a challenger.

[kgelfen360]

Originally Posted by DO444

Ahh yea, that’s a Ford GT though.
Kinda different than a challenger.

I agree with u but at same time u say that NOW but in 2005 it was different. People might say that about Demon 20 years later. So people with lots of cash make those bets.

[DO444]

Originally Posted by kgelfen360

I agree with u but at same time u say that NOW but in 2005 it was different. People might say that about Demon 20 years later. So people with lots of cash make those bets.

I can’t argue your point.

[M4nication]

Originally Posted by DO444

Ahh yea, that’s a Ford GT though.
Kinda different than a challenger.

It's the badge. Mopar people are fucking crazy. I was (and at heart, still am) one of them. They will pay ludicrous amounts of money to get what they want. And all 2023 models will have a Last Call badge to commemorate that. Needless to say, that "ups' the collectable value to a lot of people.

That's not to even mention the Demon 170, which in itself is absurdly fast, but also will go down as the quickest Dodge ever made, and probably muscle car as a whole. Hell, it's currently the fastest ICE car and tied with the quickest electric cars. That adds a lot to the resale value 20 years down the road and people know that.

It's a shame because normal people can't afford them, nor would they want to. For $100k I'd have loved it. But for $300k? No thanks.

[DO444]

Originally Posted by M4nication

It's the badge. Mopar people are fucking crazy. I was (and at heart, still am) one of them. They will pay ludicrous amounts of money to get what they want. And all 2023 models will have a Last Call badge to commemorate that. Needless to say, that "ups' the collectable value to a lot of people.

That's not to even mention the Demon 170, which in itself is absurdly fast, but also will go down as the quickest Dodge ever made, and probably muscle car as a whole. Hell, it's currently the fastest ICE car and tied with the quickest electric cars. That adds a lot to the resale value 20 years down the road and people know that.

It's a shame because normal people can't afford them, nor would they want to. For $q00k I'd have loved it. But for $300k? No thanks.

Yea, I agree.
It’s surprising but then when you realize how many people have millions to blow on literally anything, it’s not.

I’m not hurting for cash but yea that’s outta my league paying $300k for a Dodge lol.

Props to them I guess.

[M4nication]

Originally Posted by DO444

Yea, I agree.
It’s surprising but then when you realize how many people have millions to blow on literally anything, it’s not.

I’m not hurting for cash but yea that’s outta my league paying $300k for a Dodge lol.

Props to them I guess.

Exactly. Even 100k was hard to justify for me. I had an allocation and everything for my Jailbreak. But the dealership pulled some shit, and I lost the allocation for a bit. I thought the car was gone. So I started looking what else 100k could get me. I landed on the M4 Comp, which admittedly is costing my 120k lol.

In fact, the dealership called me back and said they got me a new allocation. But by then not only was I saw annoyed with them (there's more to that story). But I decided I wanted the M4 more by that point.

I love the Challenger, I do. But it doesn't FEEL like a $100k car inside. The M4, C63, RS5, etc do. I never realized just what $100k could get me until I started really looking after the order fell through initially. And with that, couldn't justify the price for what I was getting in the Dodge, vs what I was getting in the BMW. So here I am now, a "Bimmer Boi" lol

[DO444]

Originally Posted by M4nication

Exactly. Even 100k was hard to justify for me. I had an allocation and everything for my Jailbreak. But the dealership pulled some shit, and I lost the allocation for a bit. I thought the car was gone. So I started looking what else 100k could get me. I landed on the M4 Comp, which admittedly is costing my 120k lol.

In fact, the dealership called me back and said they got me a new allocation. But by then not only was I saw annoyed with them (there's more to that story). But I decided I wanted the M4 more by that point.

I love the Challenger, I do. But it doesn't FEEL like a $100k car inside. The M4, C63, RS5, etc do. I never realized just what $100k could get me until I started really looking after the order fell through initially. And with that, couldn't justify the price for what I was getting in the Dodge, vs what I was getting in the BMW. So here I am now, a "Bimmer Boi" lol

That’s nuts man.
I had no idea Dodge was doing that, or making that kinda money. I would never in my wildest dreams pay that.

I think you did well!
I don’t pay over MSRP, it’s just my principle. And not afraid to dump a dealer either. I went 4 hours away to avoid buying anything from the local dealer because they are scummy.
It sucks, and it’s work, and I usually have to wait years for a car… but I sleep better at night and I have still been able to source the cars I want eventually.

In a way it’s hard to fault dealers since, if they don’t do you dirty they are leaving money on the table because there are apparently so many suckers out there who will bend over backwards for them. I can’t even imagine wanting a car that badly to overpay for it. I’d rather use that money for something else. There’s all kinds of ways to entertain yourself, cars are just one.

Only people imo who should be doing crazy stuff like that are those with 10mil+ in assets, and even then it’s dumb.

But again, I think you did well and made the right choice. I also do not see the Dodge Challenger as a $100k car.

I’d way rather have an m4c.
Welcome to M!

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by DO444

You would have to be a moron to buy this over a gt3 touring, sorry.

That’s almost identical to the price I saw one for a few weeks ago, brand new (sold of course).

Why does anybody have to be a moron? Why can’t people like different things?

In my market, you can’t buy a GT3 touring unless you have an amazing relationship with the dealer principal end of. So a normal person like me has no chance of getting a GT3 because I can’t buy a new Porsche every year. Whereas the CSL had a head office vetting process and somehow I got an allocation. Happy days! Also, now that I have it, I’m really happy with it. I NEVER see another one when I’m out and about, it gets way more compliments than any other car I’ve owned (Porsches included) and it’s brilliant to drive. You can drive around slowly in it, up the tempo and carve through corners, in the more aggressive modes, it’s loud and sounds awesome and honestly, I don’t know why people make such a fuss about the gear changes, they are fast and yeah maybe a bit aggressive for an auto but I like that about it.

The key question here is would I have got a GT3 touring over the CSL if they were the same money. Before I’d driven the CSL, I’d definitely have said the GT3 touring, no question, but now that I’ve owned the CSL, I’m not so sure. I’d need to drive a GT3 touring and then make my mind up but it’s definitely not as clear cut as it was before I’d driven either of them. I really like how the CSL drives, it’s just an incredible bit of kit!

[DO444]

Originally Posted by HudsonHornett

Why does anybody have to be a moron? Why can’t people like different things?

In my market, you can’t buy a GT3 touring unless you have an amazing relationship with the dealer principal end of. So a normal person like me has no chance of getting a GT3 because I can’t buy a new Porsche every year. Whereas the CSL had a head office vetting process and somehow I got an allocation. Happy days! Also, now that I have it, I’m really happy with it. I NEVER see another one when I’m out and about, it gets way more compliments than any other car I’ve owned (Porsches included) and it’s brilliant to drive. You can drive around slowly in it, up the tempo and carve through corners, in the more aggressive modes, it’s loud and sounds awesome and honestly, I don’t know why people make such a fuss about the gear changes, they are fast and yeah maybe a bit aggressive for an auto but I like that about it.

The key question here is would I have got a GT3 touring over the CSL if they were the same money. Before I’d driven the CSL, I’d definitely have said the GT3 touring, no question, but now that I’ve owned the CSL, I’m not so sure. I’d need to drive a GT3 touring and then make my mind up but it’s definitely not as clear cut as it was before I’d driven either of them. I really like how the CSL drives, it’s just an incredible bit of kit!

Your statement is false right at the beginning for creating some bs about me saying that someone is a moron because they like different things, which was never said by me in any universe.

I said if they pay $245k for a car that lists for $100k less than that, and can be had for that price, then they are a moron.

But that’s just my definition of moron, overpaying by $100,000. Maybe you have a different definition. That’s fine.

I’m inclusive of all the differing definitions of moronic. There are many. It’s a colorful rainbow.

Has nothing to do with the car or your preferences, clearly. I think I expect too much sometimes, like comprehending something someone writes before replying. They say that less than 1/10 high school students are proficient in English in America (or any other friggin’ subject really).

BMW makes cool cars.
I like them too.
You do you.
Pay whatever you want, pay more, get less, be happy.
Live your truth.
Feel better?

I am just training chat gpt-5 aren’t I.

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by DO444

Your statement is false right at the beginning for creating some bs about me saying that someone is a moron because they like different things, which was never said by me in any universe.

I said if they pay $245k for a car that lists for $100k less than that, and can be had for that price, then they are a moron.

But that’s just my definition of moron, overpaying by $100,000. Maybe you have a different definition. That’s fine.

I’m inclusive of all the differing definitions of moronic. There are many. It’s a colorful rainbow.

Has nothing to do with the car or your preferences, clearly. I think I expect too much sometimes, like comprehending something someone writes before replying. They say that less than 1/10 high school students are proficient in English in America (or any other friggin’ subject really).

BMW makes cool cars.
I like them too.
You do you.
Pay whatever you want, pay more, get less, be happy.
Live your truth.
Feel better?

I am just training chat gpt-5 aren’t I.

Your literal first sentence said “you would have to be a moron to buy this over a GT3 touring”. Read it back if you like.

You have now clarified that what you meant was that you’d have to be a moron to buy a CSL for $100,000 more than you can buy it for elsewhere.

This is not the same as your first sentence, you get that right? By introducing the GT3 touring you have conflated two things that are not the same. My response was not to the idea of paying $240,000 for a CSL that is available for $140,000 that is clearly not smart. My response was to your first sentence. Equating the value of the CSL to the GT3 touring.

Hope this helps you understand my point. I know that my English may not be as good as yours.

[DO444]

Originally Posted by HudsonHornett

Your literal first sentence said “you would have to be a moron to buy this over a GT3 touring”. Read it back if you like.

You have now clarified that what you meant was that you’d have to be a moron to buy a CSL for $100,000 more than you can buy it for elsewhere.

This is not the same as your first sentence, you get that right? By introducing the GT3 touring you have conflated two things that are not the same. My response was not to the idea of paying $240,000 for a CSL that is available for $140,000 that is clearly not smart. My response was to your first sentence. Equating the value of the CSL to the GT3 touring.

Hope this helps you understand my point. I know that my English may not be as good as yours.

You’re lost.
1/10.

You’ll need to revisit high school.
Don’t worry, you’re not alone.

Inherent to the statement about the potential purchase was the knowledge that the car costs $100,000 more than MSRP, $100k more than it lists for, and that for that same money you could buy a gt3 touring, generally considered a more desirable car by - everyone.

It’s too much to assume that you understood this. I get it.

I’m not used to having to spell out every single relevant dependency to the main idea. I haven’t spoken that way in some time.

It’s remedial.