View Poll Results: DCT or traditional AT? | |||
I prefer a DCT. | 235 | 60.57% | |
I prefer a traditional AT. | 32 | 8.25% | |
Either is fine with me. | 53 | 13.66% | |
I don't care. No manual, no purchase. | 68 | 17.53% | |
Voters: 388. You may not vote on this poll |
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11-30-2019, 01:37 PM | #199 | ||
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11-30-2019, 02:49 PM | #200 | ||
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1) Why exactly do these customers need the additional 'endurance, cooling, strength' etc? (I agree it's needed on the track - though I can still only manage about 20 minute sessions before the brakes start to cook!) 2) Why did I need to pay extra for "M Performance Suspension" on my M4? Quote:
Driving an M car in 'full auto' on the track is a frustrating and unrewarding exercise. Might as well buy a Tesla and put it in self-driving track mode with 'automatic drifting'. As I understood it, 'M' is supposed to stand for Motorsport. Perhaps BMW need a new division for 'Overengineered Massive GT cars' (let's call it 'OMG')? ...but Mercedes already have that market covered. As you say, the M2 is probably the best option for a driver's car right now, but that is starting to feel a little dated (especially the interior) and will also be EOP soon. So what's an M owner to do? Last edited by pbar; 11-30-2019 at 03:23 PM.. |
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11-30-2019, 04:07 PM | #201 | |
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Or go MT for the G8X, highly recommended . That was what I meant by my original comment. If you want the better track driving experience do it full out. The AT is for the people not going to the track IMO or going there solely to go fast. Why do these people “need” the M cars higher end capabilities? They technically don’t in the same way most people buying a G wagon or 4Runner don’t need their strength and capability but having that extra buffer and quality feel is rewarding enough in itself. I love the feel of higher quality engineering in my M car and our Porsche everyday every drive on or off the track. The M performance cars look similar but feel totally different. Last edited by solstice; 11-30-2019 at 04:19 PM.. |
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11-30-2019, 04:39 PM | #202 | |
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I have never kept a car longer than 3 years, but now it's really looking like I'm going to have to hold onto the current M4 until 2021! :-( I am considering it ... but after driving RHD manual cars for 25 years in the UK, I moved to the US and it just feels *wrong* trying to shift with my right hand (being left handed probably doesn't help). In the end, I'm not a luddite, and get just as much fun out of choosing my shift points on a DCT paddle-shift (with the benefit of two hands on the wheel). Driving a DCT well on track still requires you to be in the right gear for the right corner, and not to shift when the tires are under high load, etc. I don't expect to have that option with the ZF8. I also love the feel of a well-engineered car, and each time I test drive an M-perf variant I get that 'slushy rental car' feeling. (Just like whenever I test-drive a P-car, my M doesn't feel so great afterwards). Bottom line is that I want to feel the car is special, I want to be able to drive it hard on the track and not be worried about it falling apart, and I want to have a huge grin on my face while I'm doing it. |
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11-30-2019, 05:08 PM | #203 | |
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11-30-2019, 05:09 PM | #204 | |
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11-30-2019, 05:12 PM | #205 | |
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11-30-2019, 05:18 PM | #206 | ||
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Why go backwards? For cost and because BMW really has no idea what they are doing at the moment (eg grill design, initial M4CS pricing). The DCT is a manual transmission with paddle shifters. The best of a manual and automatic rolled into one. It's far superior for me to a Manual for aggressive driving. Anyway, the big grill and slush box will seal the fate of this car. The final nail in the coffin will be electrification to appease the climate alarmists. |
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11-30-2019, 05:32 PM | #207 | ||
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But I'm in a similar boat as you, hanging on to my car, or at least the F80 platform, and seeing what happens. |
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11-30-2019, 05:38 PM | #208 | ||
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That being said there is most definitely a difference between the DCT and the ZF. Saying it's negligible is like saying the suspension between a 340i and M3 are mostly the same. Not even close. As for the E36 M3, that was a different era and they offered a transmission that people would want possibly, however, in today's day and age with the tech available (read DCT) why wouldn't they put the more aggressive, performance oriented variant in the car?
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11-30-2019, 06:02 PM | #209 | |
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The real M3 got 5 speed or 6 speed MT and 6 speed sequential manual SMG1 (first from BMW), DTM homologation spec engine(3.0: 286-295hp, 3.2: 321hp). US E36 M3 basically was a 330i. |
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11-30-2019, 06:43 PM | #210 |
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“I am considering it ... but after driving RHD manual cars for 25 years in the UK, I moved to the US and it just feels *wrong* trying to shift with my right hand (being left handed probably doesn't help).“
You’ll be surprised how easy and quickly you adapt. I grew up in Scandinavia and drove only MT cars. Then I moved to South Africa on a long term expatriate contract and bought a right hand drive E36 328i MT. Weird for the 1st week then 2nd nature. I did jump in to the passenger seat a few times on my way home from the pub and wonder what happened to the steering wheel a few times though Last edited by solstice; 11-30-2019 at 06:55 PM.. |
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11-30-2019, 07:20 PM | #211 |
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Never had an automatic transmission in an M car before the E92. It was only moving to the US that forced the decision. (My wife and I have to share this car and we spend about 2 hrs commuting in stop & go traffic each day) Even so, I've never actually let the car change gears for me.
These days I'd actually take a DCT over an MT by choice. And an MT (even with the wrong hand) over a slushbox. Last edited by pbar; 11-30-2019 at 08:49 PM.. |
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11-30-2019, 07:27 PM | #212 | |
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11-30-2019, 10:03 PM | #213 |
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Interesting conversation, but I think most people here have not driven a comparable full auto like the E63S or F90M5. Coming from a DCT M4 and DCT F10 M5 to the F90 M5 I can tell you there is zero downside to the new auto. It is an amazing transmission and worlds better from a driveability standpoint.
I am not a manual transmission hater either, I love the 6 spd in my Civic Type R and had a 6 spd E90 M3 among a long line of manuals. The new autos remove any need for DCT, they shift just as fast, have less complexity, can handle more power and still give you all of the control. People freaked out when they moved from SMG to DCT as well. Plenty of other things to stress about with the G80 like steering feel... |
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11-30-2019, 10:11 PM | #214 | |
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The C63S was *OK*...(not as nice as the M4 DCT) but you should be aware that that's a multi-clutch transmission (MCT), not a slushbox. It shifted when I wanted it to, but the 8-spd box made it hard to avoid the rev limiter. The X3M Comp was just dreadful to drive when not in 'full auto' mode. Sluggish downshifts combined with turbo lag, little audio feedback and 8-spd close ratios makes it a frustrating experience. As an M5 driver, you're clearly comfortable with the heavy GT muscle car thing. I respect your preference. But I'm personally not interested in driving an M car in 'full auto' mode. Last edited by pbar; 11-30-2019 at 10:35 PM.. |
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11-30-2019, 10:38 PM | #215 | |
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1. Low rpm limit (7300~7400 maximum rpm) due to oil cavitation inside the gearbox. DCT is rated at 9,000 rpm. 2. Paddle shift response. Both up and downshifts are sluggish compared to DCT. If upshifted near redline, ZF8 has a very noticeable delay vs. DCT which is instant. 3. Too many gears. Frustrating to wait for engine to build boost and downshift because the transmission goes into 8th gear all the time. It doesn't give users joy short shifting all the time rather than wringing out each gear to the maximum possible rpm. This gets worse with higher torque engines. Check 4:25 of this video. Steve Sutcliffe is a proper petrolhead that points out details with which enthusiasts are concerned. 4. Overheating on track. I can't count the number of times M240i refused to downshift because the transmission temperature was too high, the drive logic putting the transmission into safe mode. This is NOT an issue with either DCT or MT. The only "downside" to DCT is low speed driveability which they had over a decade by now to solve; look at how smooth PDK operates. This is just M division being lazy and counting beans. If they needed to meet an increasingly stringent fuel economy rating, surely they could have optimized the S58 engine better, like AMG does with nanosliding technology (which reduces internal friction between the block and pistons) without resorting to one more gear and sluggish paddle shift response.
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Last edited by kyrix1st; 11-30-2019 at 10:48 PM.. |
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11-30-2019, 10:56 PM | #216 | |
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Now, I guess it's technically possible that BMW M division could make an 8 speed box where the bottom 5 gears are spaced out nicely for track driving and the other 3 are only used in 'econo-mode'. But that would be sort of strange and would require an engine that had a wide power band. I'm sure it would hurt the fuel economy numbers. Love the M8 video by the way - the section at 4:25 clearly shows why the gearbox sucks for driver engagement. Last edited by pbar; 11-30-2019 at 11:03 PM.. |
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11-30-2019, 11:03 PM | #217 | |
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11-30-2019, 11:42 PM | #218 | |
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11-30-2019, 11:47 PM | #219 |
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I wouldn’t be surprised if we see a special model like a CSL or CRT with a DCT.
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12-01-2019, 08:06 AM | #220 | |
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When BMW sees that 99.95% of the time there would be no difference between the expensive, heavy and complex gearbox versus the cheaper, lighter and simpler one, why the hell would they not go with a normal auto? Most people won't notice or give a shit. And before anyone says it Bimmerpost does not represent most people. Merc deciding to never go down the DCT route with their AMG models (other than the AMG GT) was smart.
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