[m_alnimah]

matrix_tm3 Plug In Hybrid?!

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by DC-T

I was too young to remember but is that true? Like we all moaning about turbos and hybrids now?

Oh yeah. There was moaning. Interestingly, early tests often showed that carbureted engines came out ahead in peak power. The problem turned out to be that most fuel injection systems (intake, injectors, etc) being tested were production car units, which were tailored for flexibility, where the carburetor systems (carb, intact, etc) were units that had undergone years and years of development targeting peak power.

Proponents of carburetors were protecting what they knew. If you knew how to tune a carb, you were in control of your car. Going to the drag strip frequently included tweaks to your carb to adjust for temperature and humidity. To these folks, fuel injection was a black box of complexity. They didn't understand it, and they didn't trust it.

Ultimately, fuel injection prevailed. For anyone who really understood the two systems, it was obvious that fuel injection would win once it was fully developed. Carbs aren't bad, they're just not as capable as electronic fuel injection.

That doesn't mean everyone has given up the ghost of carburetion. I guarantee you someone is going to come along and point out some niche application of carburetors claiming that they're still the best solution for "WOT peak power applications" or some other such nonsense. The truth is that fuel injection can match or exceed the fuel delivery capabilities of a carburetor under a far wider range of conditions. The only reason to stick with a carb is simplicity or cost.

[Naz24]

Plug in Hybrid? Ugh I dont want to think about having to install that damn device at my house either....

Good time to be an electrician

[c63er]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

This is going to be pretty long. I don't mean to rant at you, but you provided some good jumping off points for discussion

You might have grown up with ///M in your veins, but I grew up with automotive enthusiasm in my veins. I get excited about whatever goes fast and turns corners well. There are plenty of reasons to be disappointed in the hybrid movement, IMO, but nostalgia is the weakest of them. Lots of people cried out in horror when fuel injection was introduced too. There's nothing wrong with appreciating the past, but reserve a space in your mind for the future too

The reason I'm not a fan of the move to hybrid is that it's an efficiency-first move. Take any of the current crop of hybrid hyper-cars and ditch the hybrid components, then up the power output from the ICE powerplant. I really wonder if they wouldn't be just as fast, if not faster. IMO, only Koenigsegg are deploying a hybrid solution that is really performance-first.

Just to offer a counterpoint, IMO, that's not what's driving the move to hybrid. The market isn't exactly screaming out for a hybrid M3/4. The real driver is the push for efficiency. Governments aren't going to stop pushing for higher fuel economy standards, so automakers are being forced to adapt. The EPA combined city/hwy rating for the BMW i8 is 74 MPGe. I don't know how BMW achieve numbers anywhere close to that without going hybrid.

IMO, this is the 1970's all over again, but this time, automakers weren't caught flat footed. In the 70's, the big-three had a virtual monopoly in the US, and they didn't believe that the US government would drop the fuel economy bomb on them. They were wrong lol! Fast forward 40+ years and something similar is happening on a global scale. The difference is, this time, automakers recognize that there is no bluff, and are trying to stay ahead of it.

For example, the BMWi program is, first and foremost, a showcase. BMW has deployed this showcase strategy a couple of times in recent memory. First was the introduction of the BMWi program, with the i8 serving as BMW's halo hybrid car. It's a method of generating consumer desire associated with a hybrid vehicle. Next up is the M235i Racing program. What is BMW M? Motorsport, right? BMW loves to tout their racing heritage; as do BMW M enthusiasts. Without the M235i Racing and the associated M235i Racing Cup (VLN) racing program, the M2 would have come to market with zero "racing heritage". You can bet your bottom dollar that BMW will lean heavily on both the i8 and the M235i Racing when marketing the M3/4 hybrid and M2, respectively.

There is consumer demand, but hybrid sales are still measured in the single-digit percentage points. IMO, the automakers are looking to create more demand, rather than responding to existing demand in the market.

You do realize that the splitter and spoiler on the M4 GTS are functional, right? The M4 GTS, just like the M3 GTS, is for people who actually intend to drive the car on the track. Have a look at TomElectro's tracktool build. Do you think that's a "rediculous [sic] spoiler"? I think you should go post in that thread about how fast and furious his car is. See what kind of feedback you get from people who drive the Nurburgring on a regular basis

Cargo cult is a real thing. No denying that, but the M4 GTS is anything but, and hybrid drivetrains are just starting to appear in hyper-cars. To say that BMW is appealing to the fast and furious crowd by going hybrid is a bit of a stretch, to say the least.

If you're going to take a message to the masses, please just be sure that it doesn't sound like "get off my lawn"

Bradley

Great post! I agree with much of what you say and I didn't take it as a rant on me

But I would like to make a counter point to your counterpoint.

To the point about nostalgia. Completly agreed. But what I'm talking about has nothing to do with nostalgia. It had to do with something that was not at all addressed in your post.

Fun.

See, the m3, which I'm sure we can all agree on, is the icon that made bmw what it is to us, was never the fastest or most cutting edge car of its time. What it was, was the most fun to drive car while being safe on the streets (relatively speaking). I can't count how many fun little occasions I've had and my memories of every bmw are not of it sitting in the driveway looking pretty but rather going around some bend or doing something else fun.

The race to just extract more power or do more with less seems to always do so at the cost of fun. After all, fun is expensive and not as easily marketable as a power figure or a Nurburgring time.

But that was always BMWs master stroke. They could infuse the fun of a super car into a boxy 4 door or two door. Incredible.

In regards to the m4 gts. Yea I am aware that the lip and wing are for performance benefits. The Orange wheels also ? It seems many of BMWs performance cars were able to perform just fine without those things. Again those things are completly functional and do a job, always have. They just didn't have a place on a BMW road car.

What's changed now is that it's now an acceptable and even desirable thing for bmw to sell a car with a giant snow plow on the front where as 15 years ago there would have been blood on the streets if bmw tried to sell this. Physics haven't changed. Bmws customer base has changed which makes this acceptable now. Ie. The fast and furious generation. "Sure all this stuff does something or other... But doesn't it look cool!"

Let's cut through it all. BMW has always had to market the m3 to a certain crowd, the yuppies in the 80s, the preppy banana republic crew in the 90s and now the fast and furious generation. The car has been a reflection of that. Why did the e46m3 have a "power dome" and chrome side grills ? That was purely cosmetic. There's really nothing at all wrong with that because along with the stuff for looks/trends, the BMW magic was always there with us. A little something for everyone after all.

Which brings us full circle. BMW will have to deal with the more socially conscious/electricity saves everything generation for the next m3. This is the best way to do that. Which is why this debate is pointless . But I hope it is done in the context of keeping the car fun and alive. Making a really really really fast Prius is of course no benefit to us.

And I agree we cannot make the argument a get off my lawn one. But just make sure we educate everyone and keep bmw aware that there are still a lot of us who want to have fun with the car and don't look at it as just another accessory. BMW can't just throw power and technology at the car and call it a day. Anyone and everyone seems to be doing that. BMW needs to keep their master stroke skill alive of doing magic, infusing the cars with supercar fun in a car that shouldn't be like that.

By doing so they will also keep car enthusiasm alive for a long time to come

[Fraggy]

Please pardon my ignorance, I've not driven a car with power to the front wheels in quite some time. Doesn't power to the front wheels cause less natural steering feel and torque steer? Won't that be an issue here too?

[solstice]

Originally Posted by c63er

Bradley

Great post! I agree with much of what you say and I didn't take it as a rant on me

But I would like to make a counter point to your counterpoint.

To the point about nostalgia. Completly agreed. But what I'm talking about has nothing to do with nostalgia. It had to do with something that was not at all addressed in your post.

Fun.

See, the m3, which I'm sure we can all agree on, is the icon that made bmw what it is to us, was never the fastest or most cutting edge car of its time. What it was, was the most fun to drive car while being safe on the streets (relatively speaking). I can't count how many fun little occasions I've had and my memories of every bmw are not of it sitting in the driveway looking pretty but rather going around some bend or doing something else fun.

The race to just extract more power or do more with less seems to always do so at the cost of fun. After all, fun is expensive and not as easily marketable as a power figure or a Nurburgring time.

But that was always BMWs master stroke. They could infuse the fun of a super car into a boxy 4 door or two door. Incredible.

In regards to the m4 gts. Yea I am aware that the lip and wing are for performance benefits. The Orange wheels also ? It seems many of BMWs performance cars were able to perform just fine without those things. Again those things are completly functional and do a job, always have. They just didn't have a place on a BMW road car.

What's changed now is that it's now an acceptable and even desirable thing for bmw to sell a car with a giant snow plow on the front where as 15 years ago there would have been blood on the streets if bmw tried to sell this. Physics haven't changed. Bmws customer base has changed which makes this acceptable now. Ie. The fast and furious generation. "Sure all this stuff does something or other... But doesn't it look cool!"

Let's cut through it all. BMW has always had to market the m3 to a certain crowd, the yuppies in the 80s, the preppy banana republic crew in the 90s and now the fast and furious generation. The car has been a reflection of that. Why did the e46m3 have a "power dome" and chrome side grills ? That was purely cosmetic. There's really nothing at all wrong with that because along with the stuff for looks/trends, the BMW magic was always there with us. A little something for everyone after all.

Which brings us full circle. BMW will have to deal with the more socially conscious/electricity saves everything generation for the next m3. This is the best way to do that. Which is why this debate is pointless . But I hope it is done in the context of keeping the car fun and alive. Making a really really really fast Prius is of course no benefit to us.

And I agree we cannot make the argument a get off my lawn one. But just make sure we educate everyone and keep bmw aware that there are still a lot of us who want to have fun with the car and don't look at it as just another accessory. BMW can't just throw power and technology at the car and call it a day. Anyone and everyone seems to be doing that. BMW needs to keep their master stroke skill alive of doing magic, infusing the cars with supercar fun in a car that shouldn't be like that.

By doing so they will also keep car enthusiasm alive for a long time to come

What you are saying is still valid for the M3 and M4. The GTS models started with the E92 GTS. It had a wing since it's a $120k track car not primarily a road car. You don't like it on the street? Buy an M4. BMW expanded the range of the M3 with the GTS cars. If you buy these cars for their intent you appreciate it, wing and all. The wild orange color is not to everyone's taste but also nothing unusual on track cars. The GT3 has come with huge stickers, red wheels etc. BMW give you a choice here, stick with the M4 if you don't want a track car.

[Bluex]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

Carbs aren't bad

My waistline would disagree with you, sir........

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by Bluex

My waistline would disagree with you, sir........

[The Automotive Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by c63er

Bradley

Great post! I agree with much of what you say and I didn't take it as a rant on me

But I would like to make a counter point to your counterpoint.

To the point about nostalgia. Completly agreed. But what I'm talking about has nothing to do with nostalgia. It had to do with something that was not at all addressed in your post.

Fun.

See, the m3, which I'm sure we can all agree on, is the icon that made bmw what it is to us, was never the fastest or most cutting edge car of its time. What it was, was the most fun to drive car while being safe on the streets (relatively speaking). I can't count how many fun little occasions I've had and my memories of every bmw are not of it sitting in the driveway looking pretty but rather going around some bend or doing something else fun.

The race to just extract more power or do more with less seems to always do so at the cost of fun. After all, fun is expensive and not as easily marketable as a power figure or a Nurburgring time.

But that was always BMWs master stroke. They could infuse the fun of a super car into a boxy 4 door or two door. Incredible.

In regards to the m4 gts. Yea I am aware that the lip and wing are for performance benefits. The Orange wheels also ? It seems many of BMWs performance cars were able to perform just fine without those things. Again those things are completly functional and do a job, always have. They just didn't have a place on a BMW road car.

What's changed now is that it's now an acceptable and even desirable thing for bmw to sell a car with a giant snow plow on the front where as 15 years ago there would have been blood on the streets if bmw tried to sell this. Physics haven't changed. Bmws customer base has changed which makes this acceptable now. Ie. The fast and furious generation. "Sure all this stuff does something or other... But doesn't it look cool!"

Let's cut through it all. BMW has always had to market the m3 to a certain crowd, the yuppies in the 80s, the preppy banana republic crew in the 90s and now the fast and furious generation. The car has been a reflection of that. Why did the e46m3 have a "power dome" and chrome side grills ? That was purely cosmetic. There's really nothing at all wrong with that because along with the stuff for looks/trends, the BMW magic was always there with us. A little something for everyone after all.

Which brings us full circle. BMW will have to deal with the more socially conscious/electricity saves everything generation for the next m3. This is the best way to do that. Which is why this debate is pointless . But I hope it is done in the context of keeping the car fun and alive. Making a really really really fast Prius is of course no benefit to us.

And I agree we cannot make the argument a get off my lawn one. But just make sure we educate everyone and keep bmw aware that there are still a lot of us who want to have fun with the car and don't look at it as just another accessory. BMW can't just throw power and technology at the car and call it a day. Anyone and everyone seems to be doing that. BMW needs to keep their master stroke skill alive of doing magic, infusing the cars with supercar fun in a car that shouldn't be like that.

By doing so they will also keep car enthusiasm alive for a long time to come

As each generation passes, I think the torch of fun and sporty has been handed off to the 2 series and M2. With each passing generation cars are getting longer and bigger. The 3 series while it is not huge, it's still a big car. I expect the 2 series to the be 'M3' of the next generation. The 3 series and it's M counterpart having moved in a slightly different direction towards a different crowd.

One of my major gripes with the F8x is that I can see the hood when I look out the windshield. With my e92 M3, the hood sloped and was not visible when looking out in front of you.

[M3ANOXGREEN]

Looks like i'll def be purchasing an F8x before time runs out!

[DCG]

About time the M boys share a pizza with the i boys. Only amazing things will come of it. I called for it now it is happening, great things can come out of communicating with each other. I say go for it!

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by Advevo

Good Luck with your hybrid after your manufacturers warranty!

I would not want a tesla for free if had to take the maintance cost myself!!!

No real maintenance involved.

[mephiska]

Originally Posted by Fraggy

Please pardon my ignorance, I've not driven a car with power to the front wheels in quite some time. Doesn't power to the front wheels cause less natural steering feel and torque steer? Won't that be an issue here too?

No worse than the current electric setup. But no torque steer doesn't have to be an issue either and can be tuned out when done properly.

[123sub]

Originally Posted by 4er_Meister

BMW NEVER disappoints guys! We all know that! Isn't that why we are all here! ///M forever!!!

BS

[04cobra]

Electric/hybrids are the wave of the future. Not sure if I like it or not, but we have no choice

[Flying Ace]

I'm okay with this. You guys who are poo-pooing this only are thinking of the stigma since early 2000's that hybrid = economy/slow/prius/boring.


If you paid any atttention to the 918, P1, F70 you'll see that it's hybrid tech is promising and contributes to performance



If you've watched LeMans racing for the last 6 years, you'll see that the fastest cars on the planet (outside of F1) are hybrid cars (R18, 919, 908 TS040).



Finally, if you're looking at more practical hybrid sports cars of today, you'll still see in the next generation, we will likely =get affordable sports cars faster than the preview gen given how fast techology is changing in this field (i8, Panamara Hybrid)

[The Automotive Enthusiast]

I just miss hearing this:

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by Flying Ace

I'm okay with this. You guys who are poo-pooing this only are thinking of the stigma since early 2000's that hybrid = economy/slow/prius/boring.
[img]http://o.aolcdn.com/dims-global/dims...yota-prius.jpg[/img]

If you paid any atttention to the 918, P1, F70 you'll see that it's hybrid tech is promising and contributes to performance

[img]http://www.ferrvor.com/blog/wp-conte...rsche-7in3.jpg[/img]

If you've watched LeMans racing for the last 6 years, you'll see that the fastest cars on the planet (outside of F1) are hybrid cars (R18, 919, 908 TS040).

[img]http://images.thecarconnection.com/l...00461573_l.jpg[/img]

Finally, if you're looking at more practical hybrid sports cars of today, you'll still see in the next generation, we will likely =get affordable sports cars faster than the preview gen given how fast techology is changing in this field (i8, Panamara Hybrid)

[img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ra_S_e-hybrid_(9834184944).jpg[/img]

The Porsche has a (higher-performing) conventionally powered version of that car, and the others surely wouldn't be owned by someone strictly using on-street or communal parking facilities. M cars are not in the same league. Many M3/4 owners have their vehicle as their only car, and/or use non-private parking where plugging it in simply isn't an option.
This isn't resistance to change it is reality! Millions of potential M buyers don't have any ability to plug their car in. Those people will find ZERO value in this workaround to high performance. Many people like myself will consider this a drawback and thus makes a plug-in M car a little less attractive.

[starbai]

SO.... 2 years later. we know anything new?

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by starbai

SO.... 2 years later. we know anything new?

Negative, we still miss this just as much.

Originally Posted by Mo@BMWofFairfax

I just miss hearing this:

[rmedeir1]

So for all the manual "junkies" and those that love the sound of combustion engines this is a hard pill to swallow as most car manufacturers move to electric.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by rmedeir1

So for all the manual "junkies" and those that love the sound of combustion engines this is a hard pill to swallow as most car manufacturers move to electric.

Yep - anything hybrid/electric waves goodbye to the third pedal. I guess I should go put some oil in the lanterns and stoke the coals in the oven so I can read about it and consider my options over dinner.