[DecemberStorm]

Cooling System. M3 and M4 - explained, Episode 02. .. is this the "why the grill is so big" episode?

[solstice]

Originally Posted by Boss330

We do not know 100% that it will be more appearance than substance... Not many has driven the car yet, but Sport Auto said it was substantially better on track than the F82 M4 Comp they drove it back to back with....

Also this:

So they did, physics of a car’s driving dynamics is not limited to weight in a vacuum. I’m sure there will be some complaining about the size and/or weight as there always is since M cars aren’t small feather weights. But I do suspect the vast majority will call it a significant overall upgrade.

[apirumann]

And no mention of the glorious weight distribution figures (53/47) that BMW has boasted and been appraised for, while comparing the weight of an apple to that of a pear... Looks aside, bad weight distribution on a big boat... We do not have to agree but favoritism must have boundaries as all things do

[solstice]

Originally Posted by DecemberStorm

Cooling System. M3 and M4 - explained, Episode 02. .. is this the "why the grill is so big" episode?

Cool

Better take care and not run up a curb or over substantial debris. A lot of cooling units located low in the front.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

5kg here and there will struggle to show a noticeable delta vs the standard weights.

Like I said, one 5kg cannot account for the full difference, but multiple 5kg items easily can. The different F82 M4 test vehicles that AM&S/SA weighed varied between 1,592kg for a stripper CCB/6MT to 1,649kg for a loaded DCT competition. That's 57kg in options...

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I have seen a lot of weights throughout the years of people's cars with aftermarket wheels, or without pieces of standard equipment, or without a completely full tank that are radically different than what I get in a similar car.

I am not sure what you are insinuating here, but I was specific on how my car was weighed: stock with full fuel, save for MPE and Mobility kit.

But I agree, just fuel can make a ~45kg difference

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

For euro weights I use a euro datasheet, like this:
https://www.km77.com/coches/bmw/seri...m3/m3-cs/datos
https://www.km77.com/coches/bmw/seri...cs/m4-cs/datos

Which jives with the AM&S number I posted. Yet, their test car came 55kg below that. The M2cs is in a similar situation, where AM&S weighed their test car 37kg below DIN weight (see below). DIN weight is a good reference point, but it is far from an absolute.

...and vollgetankt means fully fuelled

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Like I said, one 5kg cannot account for the full difference, but multiple 5kg items easily can. The different F82 M4 test vehicles that AM&S/SA weighed varied between 1,592kg for a stripper CCB/6MT to 1,649kg for a loaded DCT competition. That's 57kg in options...

I am not sure what you are insinuating here, but I was specific on how my car was weighed: stock with full fuel, save for MPE and Mobility kit.

But I agree, just fuel can make a ~45kg difference


Which jives with the AM&S number I posted. Yet, their test car came 55kg below that. The M2cs is in a similar situation, where AM&S weighed their test car 37kg below DIN weight (see below). DIN weight is a good reference point, but it is far from an absolute.

...and vollgetankt means fully fuelled

Perhaps it's uneven application of seam sealer and sound deadening material. There's so much of it!

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Perhaps it's uneven application of seam sealer and sound deadening material. There's so much of it!

[GioM3]

Pathetic defence of weight gain, why didn't they compere like for like, manual vs manual, my guess is that with standard spec on both cars there's a 150kg difference. Pathetic...

[M-SP0RT]

Originally Posted by rhyary

Does anyone seriously planning to buy a car on the same year it launches?

I always buy the last year of the model.
Feels a lot safer and all the kinks are out.

This might be extreme, but first year is extreme as well. Me think.

This is all personal preference.

I would never buy the last year model because it's outdated right away (looks, tech, performance) and then the new model comes out.

I typically like buying the 2nd year model because the car would be fairly new in the market and some issues would've likely been identified & resolved, plus you get some chance to negotiate a better deal.

Others like to buy as soon as the LCI model comes out for obvious reasons.

This time I'm going with the AWD version which will be 2022 (technical 2nd year model) but effectively speaking it is the 1st year model. I'm not waiting any longer so I'll take the risk and pay close to MSRP.

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by Jimjamz

My 16yo daughter (who is not into cars) saw a 4 series on the lot when we were looking at our new M2 CS and her first comment was "that one looks like the slow kid in the family".

LOL!

Yesterday on the school run my 2 boys 12/14yr saw the first base specced 4 series in cross traffic. Both expressed their repulsion spontanuously: "WTF, is that thing a BMW?". While children just speak their mind, adults are inclined to rationalise and contemplate about it. Have to add, the base spec with tiny 17 inch rims and the chrome grill, is probably not the best guise.

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by apirumann

And no mention of the glorious weight distribution figures (53/47) that BMW has boasted and been appraised for, while comparing the weight of an apple to that of a pear... Looks aside, bad weight distribution on a big boat... We do not have to agree but favoritism must have boundaries as all things do

50/50 is better no doubt, but I'am not so certain that this mildly skewed distribution will make a lot of difference. In comparo with Audi which carry +60% in the front, 53% is still rather neutral I'd presume. It will however allow for a bit higher entry speed in the braking phase, and allow sooner acceleration on apex on the exit phase. The cost of this is a gently more understeered character when you aim at the apex.

Also prepare for their video still to be released where they will explain the smaller front wheels vs rear, providing the opportunity for a significant 'higher' tire providing a more progressive turn in and make it less sensitive to directional jerk. Also the wider front track will help clearly to build more directional prowess.

Damn, I hope I'am not converting to a fan already, reading my own post.

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by thaalrasha

He mentions emission standards... That's a hard sell for me, the S58 is emitting so much more CO2 vs S55 that it makes this car falls into V8 brackets of emission and import taxes

Wanna see where this would be now, pretty sure the C02 hasn't improved :


Noticed in their weight video, a full tank doesn't even cover 400 km range ... that's not much ... maybe the onboard computer is calculating this because the previous usage was heavy and consumption was especially high but for a car that is not even break in it's weird...

Indeed, this is a REAL showstopper in Europe. I never commented on this because this is a US forum. But I wonder how they are going to sell ANY of those puppies with these abysmal CO² emmission numbers and related excessive taxes here!

What happens in Europe now, will hit fast in US the coming few years. I'am afraid that resale value will be dreadful. This is certainly the last none electric assisted M.

[iturbo_bmw]

not really down with the reduced sound insulation.. i rather the exhaust is louder but i don't want more outside noise coming in

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by KoenG

50/50 is better no doubt, but I'am not so certain that this mildly skewed distribution will make a lot of difference. In comparo with Audi which carry +60% in the front, 53% is still rather neutral I'd presume. It will however allow for a bit higher entry speed in the braking phase, and allow sooner acceleration on apex on the exit phase. The cost of this is a gently more understeered character when you aim at the apex.

Also prepare for their video still to be released where they will explain the smaller front wheels vs rear, providing the opportunity for a significant 'higher' tire providing a more progressive turn in and make it less sensitive to directional jerk. Also the wider front track will help clearly to build more directional prowess.

Damn, I hope I'am not converting to a fan already, reading my own post.

Actually, contrary to what BMW wants us to believe, 50/50 is not "ideal" for handling dynamics. It is a question of polar moment of inertia: the farther the center of gravity resides relative to the rear axle, the greater the force needed from the front tires to get the car to change direction. There is a reason why all great sports and race cars have a rear weight bias. And yes, a 1~2% shift is significant.

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Actually, contrary to what BMW wants us to believe, 50/50 is not "ideal" for handling dynamics. It is a question of polar moment of inertia: the farther the center of gravity resides relative to the rear axle, the greater the force needed from the front tires to get the car to change direction. There is a reason why all great sports and race cars have a rear weight bias. And yes, a 1~2% shift is significant.

Yes, but is also the reason why they put wider tires on the front axle this time. You can lean more on the front-axle with the G8. Also they stiffened the rotational rigidity by a lot.

When you're driving GT races, you probably don't want it, but when you're a casual track hero, I understand why a more front end biased config makes sense.

[someMoreMplease]

Why is it still heavier? No real defense.

[bm323]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Actually, contrary to what BMW wants us to believe, 50/50 is not "ideal" for handling dynamics. It is a question of polar moment of inertia: the farther the center of gravity resides relative to the rear axle, the greater the force needed from the front tires to get the car to change direction. There is a reason why all great sports and race cars have a rear weight bias. And yes, a 1~2% shift is significant.

Ok, I understand 50/50 is not ideal, but it's preferable to 53 front/47 rear?

[bm323]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Obviously my figures include assumptions, but they make sense, at least to me. Please let me know where you think I'm wrong:

1) I know what my F80 CS weighs and the equipment it has, basically nothing. No CCB, no comfort access, no center console, nav, heads up display
2) DIN weights comparing the G8X and all its variants have been available for some time. So we don't need to speculate about the G82 to G80 delta, the 6MT to 8AT delta, the weight of the CF seats, etc
3) The G82 in the video is said to have 'minimal options', but still has nav as that cannot be removed just like the F8X generation.
What options could the G82 not have that my F80 CS has? HUD? Do you think that's a significant source of weight? For sure it has a center console which must weigh something and my F80 CS does not have.

Your figures are listed as if they are mathematically computed, and it does not appear that there are any obvious assumptions.

The issue is the weight of the G8X AWD by considering the weight of the G82 manual in the OP’s video.

We cannot assume that the G82 in the video is configured for the US market. G82 can be packaged differently or not packaged for different markets. We do not know what the specs are for the G82 or for the F82 in the video. Do we know for a fact that the differences between the G82 manual in the video and the G82 AWD (configured as the F82 in the video) are only the ZCP and seats?
From the exchanges above between you and CanAutM3, there are differences in the weights of both your existing M3 CSs which you appeared not to be able to account for mathematically. Do you think the weight of the production G8X AWD (which is not even available) can be computed mathematically when we do not know what specs are for the G82 manual in the video, and also compared with the F82 (specs of which are not made known) in the video? Why can't BMW just tell us eg the actual specs of the G82 in the video, weight of a fully loaded one and/or compare it with a similarly equipped F82?

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

The only WAG I see is your statement that 'the heaviest F82 is lighter than the lightest G82'. We don't know that at all. The F82 they use in the video is lighter than my F80CS so I don't think it's 'the heaviest F82'.

It is not my statement; it is quoted from BMWblog, as shown in the link posted. Presumably, it should read as “the heaviest F82 BMW could lay its hands on for the video”.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by bm323

Ok, I understand 50/50 is not ideal, but it's preferable to 53 front/47 rear?

For sure it is. As I stated, the closest the CG to rear axle, the better (up to a certain limit naturally) and every % counts.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by KoenG

Yes, but is also the reason why they put wider tires on the front axle this time. You can lean more on the front-axle with the G8. Also they stiffened the rotational rigidity by a lot.

When you're driving GT races, you probably don't want it, but when you're a casual track hero, I understand why a more front end biased config makes sense.

By wider front tires I assume you mean less width stagger than before? Because every generation M3/4 got wider front tires from one gen to the next and the G8X still has staggered widths.

Yes, I believe they had to invest additional effort on the front axle to offset the greater front weight bias which creates more understeer. I also believe the staggered diameter rims is for the same purpose. I guess we’ll find out soon enough.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by bm323

Your figures are listed as if they are mathematically computed, and it does not appear that there are any obvious assumptions.

The issue is the weight of the G8X AWD by considering the weight of the G82 manual in the OP’s video.

We cannot assume that the G82 in the video is configured for the US market. G82 can be packaged differently or not packaged for different markets. We do not know what the specs are for the G82 or for the F82 in the video. Do we know for a fact that the differences between the G82 manual in the video and the G82 AWD (configured as the F82 in the video) are only the ZCP and seats?
From the exchanges above between you and CanAutM3, there are differences in the weights of both your existing M3 CSs which you appeared not to be able to account for mathematically. Do you think the weight of the production G8X AWD (which is not even available) can be computed mathematically when we do not know what specs are for the G82 manual in the video, and also compared with the F82 (specs of which are not made known) in the video? Why can't BMW just tell us eg the actual specs of the G82 in the video, weight of a fully loaded one and/or compare it with a similarly equipped F82?



It is not my statement; it is quoted from BMWblog, as shown in the link posted. Presumably, it should read as “the heaviest F82 BMW could lay its hands on for the video”.

The difference in weight between my CS and the homologated weight for the CS is 2lb. 2lb. I'm not sure how much closer you think it should be, but I think we're pretty good there.
I can't speak to CanAut's car. I've stated my conditions when my car was weighed on corner balancing scales: completely full tank and completely oem.

I don't recall discussing the weight of the AWD G8X at any point. That car isn't coming out as a 2021 model. We can be quite sure it will weigh a good amount more than the RWD G8X car.
The people clamoring for lightweight AWD cars seem to not understand that AWD hardware adds a significant amount of weight to any car. It's been like this since the beginning of time, not sure why it seems like a surprise.

There is no 'apples to apples' comparison of a AWD G8X to a RWD F8X because they are two different systems.

We don't know the spec of the F82 in the video but I know the spec of my CS, which is heavier than the video F82 despite having a CF hood, no center console and a cf prop shaft. Options I have are HK sound and the executive package.
The assumption is quite reasonable, unless I'm doing the equivalent of playing chess with a pigeon and have to stop wasting time answering.

Finally, if you don't mind, I'll take euro weights which are legally homologated in europe, from a european mag not associated with BMW a million times over 'bmwblog', which does not need to worry about homologated weights. Wasn't bmwblog the website that said the F8X weighed 3400lb?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Wasn't bmwblog the website that said the F8X weighed 3400lb?

BMW showed a (homologated) DIN weight of 1,497kg/3,300lb for the F82 in its original press release

As I stated earlier, DIN are not all hold and behold either: a good reference point but not an absolute. Just options can make weights vary by 60kg+. The DIN weight standards were also revised somewhere around 2016, which makes it more difficult to do direct comparisons.