[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

I agree 100% with this part. Actually more like 1000%. We'd make a huge impact by not throwing crap away and going after gross polluters like container ships and industries that are barely regulated, instead of ekeing out tiny gains at the cost of consumers. And ICE has been turned into such a stigma that people look at classic, non-emissions cars like the devil, but the reality is that if you drive that car less than 1,000 miles / year your pollution is completely negligible.

As for the first part of your statement, well, that's the good thing about science. It doesn't care whether you believe it or not.

Apparently it does, because climate change is a theory and not a fact. And most climate studies are funded by world governments. You could spend just 5 minutes informing yourself on these subjects - it's literally not settled science, and the data has been shown to be manipulated.

HAARP exist, weather altering aerosols exist - its not science fiction or a conspiracy, it is taboo because "smart man in lab coat says otherwise"

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by MachinesWithSouls

I would disagree, and I’m holding the answer in my hand. My iPhone’s battery doesn’t hold 100% of its charge after 2 years, and it faces much less stress than a car battery would.

Electric cars aren’t perfect, and the demand isn’t there right now, given the nearly 90-day overstock on auto lots across the country. Given their limitations - using it as an actual car - they aren’t on par with ICE cars yet.

Not sure what happens when these cars start to age, and you’re purchasing an i4 with 89% charge capacity. Will the price reflect that? Replacing the pack would defeat the point of a green electric car, since they are so demanding to produce. I suppose we’ll see.

Your disagreement is based on a consumer product that cost less than $1,000, and prioritizes battery packaging and light weight uber alles, has no active cooling, very little battery managment or buffers, and is designed to be disposed of in three years. This is not at all a valid comparison to a modern BEV. They have buffers, active cooling, charging speed regulation, etc.

I never said that there is no degradation. There most certainly is. But the truth is that there is massive amount of data which shows that the dropoff is about 15% over a 5-10 year period and most of that comes in the first 10-20k miles or so and then significantly levels out.

And yes, the price of used EV's does reflect battery degradation. You can pretty easily get a report if you know what to ask.

As for the limitations of "using it as an actual car", believe me, they aren't nearly as bad as most people make it out to be.

[AmuroRay]

EV growth is a result of an aggressive media and incentive push, which includes coercion, credits and preferred rates and free press. It's not organic.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Apparently it does, because climate change is a theory and not a fact. And most climate studies are funded by world governments. You could spend just 5 minutes informing yourself on these subjects - it's literally not settled science, and the data has been shown to be manipulated.

HAARP exist, weather altering aerosols exist - its not science fiction or a conspiracy, it is taboo because "smart man in lab coat says otherwise"

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

Yeah, that's the best you have.
You're getting your talking points from the media and relying on someone else to form your opinion because they are an "expert" (what does that even mean?)

Are you not able to critically think for yourself or understand how and why people may disagree?

5 years ago, polar ice caps were growing in size, this is despite claims of world heating over the past 50 years. How is that possible?

[cfm56d7b]

This is a difficult milestone for many M fans.

The decision to own an M vehicle could be easily traced to a complex, yet predictable formula: style, performance, engine acoustics, exhaust acoustics, handling, "can take it to the track if I want to ...", and //M(any) other personal factors included in the formula.

I recently drove Taycan Turbo S. Ignoring the price for a moment, my condensed test drive report: neck-snapping acceleration, crisp steering, respectable handling (nothing one can do about the extra weight shifting during tight turns).

Would I buy now? No - as long as I can buy the current M3/4, M5 or M8. Engine and exhaust acoustics matter.

The absence of real, non-digitized engine acoustics and exhaust acoustics served as a stark reminder of what's ahead.

Electric cars can deliver near supercar performance. The absence of engine and exhaust acoustics is a change and everyone's willingness to accept this change will vary.

If you want an M vehicle using the current formula to make the purchase decision, get one soon.

[giphlag]

I don't know what it means when someone says they don't believe in climate change. Do you mean you don't believe in the climate changing because of human activity?

The climate is changing. Full stop. Sea levels are rising. Global temps are rising. Weather is more extreme. Draughts are longer. Wildfires are stronger and burn longer. Floods are more common. We have the data on all of this.

Also, as someone called it the "Dino juice", the fossil fuels... guess what... it is finite. It will run out. Maybe not for a 100 years but at some point we will just have to deal with weening ourselves off of it. And yes, a transition sucks, it can suck now or it can suck in a 100 years for a different generation, but as a human species we will have to get through it.

Despite what people are saying, no one is shoving an EV transition down our throats. Similar to the advent of oil and gas usage, the development, refinement and innovation of battery tech will take a while. Solid-state batteries will be a thing. Energy density is increasing year-over-year. Weight reductions are coming.

I don't understand why this new stuff is so threatening to some people. And I don't understand AT ALL why new technologies would have to have zero impact on the environment and zero impact on animals and wildlife. Like what? Since when? When humans built their first oil rig? Did we all cry foul over how many birds or fish it would kill? Give me a break.

We all need to take a breath. Let the technology evolve. If you want to buy solar panels for your home and want an EV go do it. If not, fine. No one's making you.

[MachinesWithSouls]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

Your disagreement is based on a consumer product that cost less than $1,000, and prioritizes battery packaging and light weight uber alles, has no active cooling, very little battery managment or buffers, and is designed to be disposed of in three years. This is not at all a valid comparison to a modern BEV. They have buffers, active cooling, charging speed regulation, etc.

I never said that there is no degradation. There most certainly is. But the truth is that there is massive amount of data which shows that the dropoff is about 15% over a 5-10 year period and most of that comes in the first 10-20k miles or so and then significantly levels out.

And yes, the price of used EV's does reflect battery degradation. You can pretty easily get a report if you know what to ask.

As for the limitations of "using it as an actual car", believe me, they aren't nearly as bad as most people make it out to be.

I’m sure you’re aware that temperature variations also degrade the battery - one living in cold climate or extreme heat will not last as long. At any rate, you made the point for me - a 15% drop off is what I originally wrote, and yet, I paid for 100% of the power.

[Bimmerfun82]

My bet is hybrid like the XM, and wouldn’t be surprised if they extend the ICE life cycle like they have announced for the Z4 (although that was only 5 months IIRC). Too bad they can’t shrink the car a bit to cut weight if they do go the hybrid route. This probably depends on legislation.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by Jekkameister

If they decide to go electric, they will notice a steep drop off in sales and the increase in older combustion engine prices. You buy an M3 for the power, the looks, the sounds! Just because it’s electric and “the cool new thing” doesn’t mean that it’s actually a step forward. And what about 5 years down the line, when your battery capacity shrinks to a fraction of what it used to be new? Range decreases, power decreases, and nobody wants to deal with -electrical- issues- which is 90% of what happens with -electric- cars

I don't know. To me it seems new M car buyers are mostly interested in the badge and that the new car is new. As soon as BMW does any update at all they are very concerned with how "dated" the old car looks relative to the new car or the LCI update. I think if the car was self driving only most previous new M car buyers would still trade in their old car for the new car as long as it looked new and was faster than the old car by the numbers. As soon as their old car lease is up they're leasing the next M no matter what they do to it as long as it doesn't look like the old car.

[SoCalBimmerGuy]

There are always going to be political and media pushes on government agenda. That is the world we live in no matter which "side" it is pushing. ICE do have an expiration date as sad as that is. I don't believe EV's are the answer. I actually hate EV's and I hate Tesla the most of all. The carbon footprint of these batteries and what happens to them when they are used up will be the next environmental disaster. The mines that have been built are already destroying their local areas. How many natural resources will it take to make the world EV only and what will we have to do to get them? Furthermore there is not enough electricity to power EV's on a worldwide stage. Then where is most electricity coming from...… carbon emitting power plants. If you can't see the bigger picture I don't know what to tell you. The answer is not EV's. Synthetic fuel like what Porsche is doing in Chile is a step in the right direction or fuel cell like Toyota or maybe hydrogen. Who knows. At the end of the day I personally don't look at EV's being the answer or the future. They are the present and sometime in the future EV's will be viewed upon as "dirty". Personal opinion of course.

[Mako]

Just please DONT do a damn I4 hybrid like some other companies!

If it’s a hybrid it should be a tiny electric motor that hardly adds any weight to help with low end power.

To me either stick with gas or go full electric, hybrids are the all season tires of engines, not good at anything.

[deneed4spd]

Not saying many M drivers actually track their cars but a lot of tracks are banning electric cars because they are impossible to put out in case of crash/fire. There was some chat about Porsche Caymen going all electric and how many Caymen owners won’t upgrade because they can’t bring their new electric Caymen to the track. Maybe M division should go electric on 3/4 series M but leave M2 for gas for track duty. Unless they cut over to solid state batteries which seem to be more stable. But who knows.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by MachinesWithSouls

I’m sure you’re aware that temperature variations also degrade the battery - one living in cold climate or extreme heat will not last as long. At any rate, you made the point for me - a 15% drop off is what I originally wrote, and yet, I paid for 100% of the power.

Yes, I am well aware. That's why they are actively managed. Living in cold or hot climates has not proven to accelerate aging any more than moderate climates. I'm sure you are aware that Norway has a super high % of EV's on the road? It's pretty cold there, yet degradation is not significantly different to other parts of the world.

How much power does an ICE lose as it gets out of tune with age?

Regardless, it is what it is. Yes, there is loss in capacity. If you want an EV, that's something you have to accept. I didn't re-up for another EV because I want the technology to start maturing. Tesla, BMW and to a certain extent GM are really the only manufacturers with history of mass selling EV's. And Tesla is run like a drunken Circus. I'm out for now. I'm not pushing EV's as some kind of savior. I'm very realistic about what they are and aren't. Just letting you know that those particular concerns aren't necessarily true.

[Mako]

Originally Posted by OC-M3CX

Hate to say it but electric is the future. The tech may not be there yet but it will be. Battery tech is only going to get better. Maybe not in the next gen but certainly after. People said they wouldn’t buy the G8xs because of the grille, how it’s a disgrace to BMW but turns out it’s not that bad.

It shouldn’t be, hydrogen was the real future but was more complicated and costly to develope so they went the easy route.
So many studies showing that electric isn’t what it’s advertised at, for the majority of people it’s NOT lowering their carbon footprint, only at 80,000 miles does it’s full environmental impact overtake gas engines and will they really be driven past that? It’s battery won’t last and then you are resetting the impact again when buying a new battery.

And resale will be horrible. Electric cars are like iPhones, they will eventually lose more residual per year than gas cars ever did. No one will want used electric cars.

Maybe solid state batteries will change things but I am not buying a car that is only guaranteed to have 75% battery life after 3 years, what a joke. Imagine if you were told your gas car would only get 75% range and lose power after 3 years.

[///M TOWN]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

The FUD term was popularized in the EV circles WAY before Crypto was even a thing.

💯

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by giphlag

I don't know what it means when someone says they don't believe in climate change. Do you mean you don't believe in the climate changing because of human activity?

You are aware that part of the scientific method is observation, correct.
Name one person who was back then to observe and record this data. I'll wait.

Originally Posted by giphlag

The climate is changing. Full stop. Sea levels are rising. Global temps are rising.

Are sealevels rising?


Weather is more extreme. Draughts are longer. Wildfires are stronger and burn longer. Floods are more common. We have the data on all of this.

Originally Posted by giphlag

Also, as someone called it the "Dino juice", the fossil fuels... guess what... it is finite. It will run out. Maybe not for a 100 years but at some point we will just have to deal with weening ourselves off of it. And yes, a transition sucks, it can suck now or it can suck in a 100 years for a different generation, but as a human species we will have to get through it.

Literally zero proof petroleum fuels are from fossils, and there is plenty of evidence to suggest that they actually "recharge" and refill themselves.

A lot of new oil comes from old oil fields that have been redrilled.

Originally Posted by giphlag

Despite what people are saying, no one is shoving an EV transition down our throats. Similar to the advent of oil and gas usage, the development, refinement and innovation of battery tech will take a while. Solid-state batteries will be a thing. Energy density is increasing year-over-year. Weight reductions are coming.

Uhhh, that's false. They most definitely are, and the effects are not felt just on cars, but also on our foods. Farmers in the EU are being forced to close their farms, same with Canada. This is all based on pseudo science nonsense.

Originally Posted by giphlag

I don't understand why this new stuff is so threatening to some people. And I don't understand AT ALL why new technologies would have to have zero impact on the environment and zero impact on animals and wildlife. Like what? Since when? When humans built their first oil rig? Did we all cry foul over how many birds or fish it would kill? Give me a break.

We all need to take a breath. Let the technology evolve. If you want to buy solar panels for your home and want an EV go do it. If not, fine. No one's making you.

My guy, it's nothing to do with progress, and everything to do with control.

https://www.shellenergy.co.uk/blog/p...ture-of-energy

Smart meters bring a whole host of benefits: they’ll tell you how much you’re spending in real time, which means there are no nasty surprises when your bill turns up. … But, perhaps best of all, smart meters give you real-time information on your energy use.

“They let you know exactly how much it’s costing you to boil that kettle or charge your phone. Armed with this knowledge, you can make a more informed decision about whether to turn up the heating, or put another load in the tumble dryer. …

“Smart meters are set to revolutionise the way we use electricity. They make it easier for suppliers like us to offer cheaper, off-peak rates for, say, charging your electric car. They tell us more about how you use your energy, which means we can offer you more suitable tariffs. It may be that, one day, you’re offered cheaper electricity on sunny or windy days, when clean energy is easier to come by.”

Ahh yes, the choice between eating and cleaning clothes, or being taxed more for doing it both.

[G MONEY]

Originally Posted by Jekkameister

Stock, certainly. And if we all had the same opinion, then the word “taste” would have no meaning. I like the sound. I like the rumble and growl of the combustion engine, even if it’s not your personal preference. And I can always opt to upgrade the exhaust system down the line, which is something I can never do in an electric car

Stock is best cause it’s the least ear bleeding. I have never heard an F series car, that I personally can say sounds good. Even my
Own with full Akro is Bad!! The AA EQ mid helped. But I would never say it’s a good sounding car. The G series is a smidge better but again, the B58’s are way better in my opinion. Like you said, everyone enjoys different things.

[Jekkameister]

Originally Posted by jmack123

Fake news. Batteries don’t significantly degrade within 5 years. Not even within 10 years. Porsche has shown in the Taycan - particularly the Taycan S, that a high-performance EV is more than possible.
Really, EVs aren’t the “new cool thing”, they are a quantum leap forward. For example, the Volvo EX30, a small soccer mom mobile that starts at $35k will go 0-60 as fast as a current gen M3. Sorry but the writing is on the wall. Very soon the only advantage ICE vehicles will have is their soundtrack.

Crucial, critical advantage is weight.

A Tesla X Plaid has an enormously heavy battery and despite the horsepower to weight ratio being solid and “fast”, watch any professional race car driver take a Tesla out on the track and they all complain about the weight of the car.

There is only so much power and capacity you can pack into a battery and 30 liters of fuel, is 30 liters of fuel. You get the same power with 30, as you do with 5 remaining.

A dead battery weighs just as much as a full one.

[harperium]

I went to college in Utah in the 90's. The Mormon church leaders loved to brag about their fast growth rates (I doubt rates were factually true but anyway). If those growth rates had been sustained, the entire world population would be Mormon by now. So I highly doubt today's BEV growth rate will carry on much longer.

1 EV battery weighs ~ 1000 to 2000 lbs. This requires mining and processing of 200,000 to 400,000 lbs of ore. The mining and processing of this ore has a carbon (and destructive environmental) footprint. It's hard to calculate with precision, but it is most definitely not zero. Also, the amount of mining and processing increases with time, because over the decades, all the "easy" mines are used up, and they have to dig deeper. So the cost of the rare earth elements will only increase.

The Toyota argument: 1 EV battery could make 30 to 50 hybrid cars. Over the lifetime of these cars, the hybrid cars would save a LOT more carbon than 1 EV.

[hufington]

Like the CEO said, it can be anything for us as well. We may like the direction BMW chooses, we may not. We may buy or we may lease or we may choose another brand. In the end, there are always going to be options for the buyers but a wrong decision by a CEO may sink the ship with him at the helm..

[Juanero]

"Very soon the only advantage ICE vehicles will have is their soundtrack."

I totally agree; in the near future a majority of cars will be EV. But some of us still have 2 channel stereos connected to record players; just preference. ICE cars will still be here for decades.