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      11-21-2021, 02:27 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forzanerazzurri View Post
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Originally Posted by CP911 View Post
There is something pure feeling about steering a car when the front wheels aren't trying to do anything other than turn. I haven't driven a G80 yet, but I'd be curious to drive the xDrive back to back with the RWD to see how they really feel when sitting in the driver's seat and opening up the steering wheel while powering out of a turn. That special feeling (or lack thereof?) would be the deciding factor for me. The 1/2 second in this test just doesn't matter for a car like this. Where are people racing 4000 lbs luxury saloons against one another? Drag racers, maybe, but I cringe at the idea that someone buys this car only to put their foot down to go in a straight line. *yawn* You could buy a Tesla and be much happier if that's your goal.

Also, AWD does nothing to help a vehicle stop or turn better. The tires have whatever inherent grip they will have. Therefore, I don't accept the notion that AWD automatically makes for a better daily driver just because you can accelerate off the line faster in slippery road conditions. Big deal. It's not like you are towing or going off-roading where AWD actually has a purpose and a job to do.

I'm not hating on the AWD option by any means. If it sells and they still offer RWD, then everyone is winning. It's a great thing that more people can be happy. However, for me, the additional weight penalty on an already hefty car, a more forward-biased weight distribution, and a more complicated drivetrain in terms of maintenance and cost simply could never be worth the ability to take off from a dead stop a little bit quicker. Again, unless you're racing someone in your 4000 lbs road car, that is all you would be gaining by going AWD. Maybe I'm missing something!
What part of 'you can turn it off completely and drive it in RWD mode' did you not understand?
Why would I buy an AWD car and pay more for it if I'm going to prefer to drive it in RWD mode? Makes zero sense. I would then get all the downsides mentioned and no upside. Or are we so brainwashed and addicted to technology today that we lust for new features without really understanding why we have them and without considering whether they actually add real value to our lives or not?

I already hate pushing a button to go from Comfort to Sport mode every time I enter my car. I've therefore learned to just keep it in Comfort, and l'm happier as a result by being less annoyed. The last freakin' thing I want to do is decide whether my car should be using 2 or 4 wheels at any given moment. How stupid…I just want to get it and drive it. That's all.

I'm a Millennial by the way. And my career is literally based on constantly evolving technology (computer networking engineering and sales) so not like I'm some "old schooler" who refuses to get with the times. I just prefer simplicity and effectiveness more often than not.

Again, I'm glad BMW is giving us the choice here.
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      11-21-2021, 02:42 AM   #46
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Nice that this was finally done with expected result. Zero surprise.
I love that they drove both on Cup 2s on the same day, that’s professional journalism.

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      11-21-2021, 04:06 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by CP911 View Post
Why would I buy an AWD car and pay more for it if I'm going to prefer to drive it in RWD mode? Makes zero sense. I would then get all the downsides mentioned and no upside. Or are we so brainwashed and addicted to technology today that we lust for new features without really understanding why we have them and without considering whether they actually add real value to our lives or not?

I already hate pushing a button to go from Comfort to Sport mode every time I enter my car. I've therefore learned to just keep it in Comfort, and l'm happier as a result by being less annoyed. The last freakin' thing I want to do is decide whether my car should be using 2 or 4 wheels at any given moment. How stupid…I just want to get it and drive it. That's all.

I'm a Millennial by the way. And my career is literally based on constantly evolving technology (computer networking engineering and sales) so not like I'm some "old schooler" who refuses to get with the times. I just prefer simplicity and effectiveness more often than not.

Again, I'm glad BMW is giving us the choice here.
Does it not rain where you are?
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      11-21-2021, 04:17 AM   #48
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I really cant get my head around anyone arguing against AWD. It does everything a little better and provides fabulous performance flexibility.

Ive heard many comments about weight. Really?! Naaaah. That doesnt standup. Youre not noticing that. Just swap your iphone 13 pro max for the pro instead. ;-p

More complexity?. Yes but cmon, youre nit-picking here. Arent new beemers complex anyway?!

Maybe its the extra cost, maybe. However spending this much on a car are you gonna quibble over the little bit extra?

The AWD G8x is a beast. Im surprised given how well the M5 incoporated Xdrive that the current G80s arent all AWD.

My own G80 M3C is RWD and i love it to pieces but you cant help but admire the extra fractions of allround performance gained by having all 4 wheels driven.
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      11-21-2021, 04:26 AM   #49
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I agree the dynamics may not be too different except for weight. Do we have info on turning radius for both cars? I believe the AWD will need more room to maneuver.
I doubt there is any difference, at all in turning radius. One of the first things I noticed about my xDrive was how ridiculously far the wheel turns for a car with 275 section tires, on the front. This thing literally has the turning radius of a Honda Civic.

EDIT: Nevertheless, there are still some minute but important differences between the M3 and M4 Competition and their xDrive-optioned counterparts. Although the conventional M3 and M4 have different gear ratios than the competition models, these remain unchanged with the xDrive variants. The steering ratio, however, drops from fifteen to one for rear-drive cars to 14.6 to one for xDrive cars. The turning radius appropriately grows from twenty feet to 20.7 with xDrive. Height and ground clearance are also increased for xDrive models, growing a tenth of an inch from 56.4 and 54.8 for the M3 and M4 to 56.5 and 54.9, and from 4.7 inches to 4.8 respectively.

Source: https://bimmerlife.com/2021/04/18/bm...and-m4-lineup/

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I'm completely sold on the performance of this vehicle but I'm going to wait for the facelift (literally)….
I wouldnt wait too long.
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      11-21-2021, 09:37 AM   #50
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Meh i still prefer manual rwd
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      11-21-2021, 09:45 AM   #51
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100lbs extra on a 4000lb car is negligible. Unless you have a stripped down full on race car and you are driving at the limit you are not going to feel that 100lbs. It's a pointless discussion.
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      11-21-2021, 11:43 AM   #52
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Quote:
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… Where are people racing 4000 lbs luxury saloons against one another? Drag racers, maybe, but I cringe at the idea that someone buys this car only to put their foot down to go in a straight line. *yawn* …
If you aren’t going to track it or launch it… what are you going to do with it?

I feel sort of the opposite. My M roadster, while old school and full of character, is so far off the pace of the new cars it’s laughable. I’ve come to accept that my “pure” car is really going to be there just for the experience — the feel, the sounds, smells. It’s the g82 that will be the track weapon. I had the opportunity to drive one around Laguna over here a couple weeks ago, and it’s very well suited for that. You don’t need to take my word for it. Equally exciting, with the AWD and a few bits, this thing will also be a rocket ship from a dig. Can’t wait to scare the shit out my kids.
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      11-21-2021, 01:25 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CP911 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forzanerazzurri View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by CP911 View Post
There is something pure feeling about steering a car when the front wheels aren't trying to do anything other than turn. I haven't driven a G80 yet, but I'd be curious to drive the xDrive back to back with the RWD to see how they really feel when sitting in the driver's seat and opening up the steering wheel while powering out of a turn. That special feeling (or lack thereof?) would be the deciding factor for me. The 1/2 second in this test just doesn't matter for a car like this. Where are people racing 4000 lbs luxury saloons against one another? Drag racers, maybe, but I cringe at the idea that someone buys this car only to put their foot down to go in a straight line. *yawn* You could buy a Tesla and be much happier if that's your goal.

Also, AWD does nothing to help a vehicle stop or turn better. The tires have whatever inherent grip they will have. Therefore, I don't accept the notion that AWD automatically makes for a better daily driver just because you can accelerate off the line faster in slippery road conditions. Big deal. It's not like you are towing or going off-roading where AWD actually has a purpose and a job to do.

I'm not hating on the AWD option by any means. If it sells and they still offer RWD, then everyone is winning. It's a great thing that more people can be happy. However, for me, the additional weight penalty on an already hefty car, a more forward-biased weight distribution, and a more complicated drivetrain in terms of maintenance and cost simply could never be worth the ability to take off from a dead stop a little bit quicker. Again, unless you're racing someone in your 4000 lbs road car, that is all you would be gaining by going AWD. Maybe I'm missing something!
What part of 'you can turn it off completely and drive it in RWD mode' did you not understand?
Why would I buy an AWD car and pay more for it if I'm going to prefer to drive it in RWD mode? Makes zero sense. I would then get all the downsides mentioned and no upside. Or are we so brainwashed and addicted to technology today that we lust for new features without really understanding why we have them and without considering whether they actually add real value to our lives or not?

I already hate pushing a button to go from Comfort to Sport mode every time I enter my car. I've therefore learned to just keep it in Comfort, and l'm happier as a result by being less annoyed. The last freakin' thing I want to do is decide whether my car should be using 2 or 4 wheels at any given moment. How stupid…I just want to get it and drive it. That's all.

I'm a Millennial by the way. And my career is literally based on constantly evolving technology (computer networking engineering and sales) so not like I'm some "old schooler" who refuses to get with the times. I just prefer simplicity and effectiveness more often than not.

Again, I'm glad BMW is giving us the choice here.
I was going to say, it must not rain and it definitely doesn't snow where you are.

AWD is a beautiful thing, especially in a place where it does snow. It's nice that during the summer months, if you wanted RWD, go ahead and put it in RWD. I'm in Alaska, so a RWD car here doesn't make a lot of sense, but people will still buy them. Most are put away during the winter though. Very few will put studs/snow tires on them and drive in the snow/ice.

The AWD M3/M4 will do quite well up here. I'd expect to see more of them up here as time goes on. I think it's great! But if you have a reason to not want AWD, that's fine too. It is a $70K+ vehicle. So order/build the car exactly how you want it.
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      11-21-2021, 01:43 PM   #54
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I was going to say, it must not rain and it definitely doesn't snow where you are.

AWD is a beautiful thing, especially in a place where it does snow. It's nice that during the summer months, if you wanted RWD, go ahead and put it in RWD. I'm in Alaska, so a RWD car here doesn't make a lot of sense, but people will still buy them. Most are put away during the winter though. Very few will put studs/snow tires on them and drive in the snow/ice.

The AWD M3/M4 will do quite well up here. I'd expect to see more of them up here as time goes on. I think it's great! But if you have a reason to not want AWD, that's fine too. It is a $70K+ vehicle. So order/build the car exactly how you want it.
On the contrary, it rains and snows a shit ton here near Chicago. I simply understand from 20 years of experience driving through the terrible winters that true winter tires + RWD will outperform all seasons + AWD every single time.

You guys are just drinking the AWD kool-aid and aren't even giving it a 2nd thought.
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      11-21-2021, 01:53 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CP911 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wes335XI View Post
I was going to say, it must not rain and it definitely doesn't snow where you are.

AWD is a beautiful thing, especially in a place where it does snow. It's nice that during the summer months, if you wanted RWD, go ahead and put it in RWD. I'm in Alaska, so a RWD car here doesn't make a lot of sense, but people will still buy them. Most are put away during the winter though. Very few will put studs/snow tires on them and drive in the snow/ice.

The AWD M3/M4 will do quite well up here. I'd expect to see more of them up here as time goes on. I think it's great! But if you have a reason to not want AWD, that's fine too. It is a $70K+ vehicle. So order/build the car exactly how you want it.
On the contrary, it rains and snows a shit ton here near Chicago. I simply understand from 20 years of experience driving through the terrible winters that true winter tires + RWD will outperform all seasons + AWD every single time.

You guys are just drinking the AWD kool-aid and aren't even giving it a 2nd thought.
I think you're missing the point and conflating things. Nobody ever discussed "safety" here. You shouldn't talk about it.

This is a performance car.
AWD is a performance feature. Especially in inclement weather.

It is a shame when you have a car that could potentially accelerate quickly off the line get stuck spinning while the 80hp Subaru/SUV lurches forward.
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      11-21-2021, 02:08 PM   #56
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If you aren’t going to track it or launch it… what are you going to do with it?
I would absolutely track a G80 if given the opportunity. However, a HPDE event means you are battling yourself lap to lap trying to become a better driver. In that scenario, you are not racing someone else. Therefore, the 1/2 second gained by having the AWD version won't "win" you anything since you are 1/2 second faster every time either way. That was my only point with that comment, I guess.

Then again, if I'm being honest, I don't know if I'd really track my own G80 if I owned one as a daily driver. When I took my old M240i to a BMW CCA HPDE, I cooked the brakes nicely (even with Motul fluid) and turned the beautiful blue calipers to a nice dark purple. The track pads were noisy and clunky for street use, and it was a major PITA having to swap them out just for one track event. The tire shoulders were damaged as well because the car really didn't have enough camber or rubber for track use. The car also took some cosmetic damage to the front end from rubber chunks and other track debris. I was reminded again why a road car is a road car and track car is a track car.

Next time, I'll just pay for a M school event so I can tear up someone else's BMW instead of my own. Or I'll buy a real dedicated track car w/ a simple NA engine and low running costs...
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      11-21-2021, 02:17 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onesie View Post
I think you're missing the point and conflating things. Nobody ever discussed "safety" here. You shouldn't talk about it.

This is a performance car.
AWD is a performance feature. Especially in inclement weather.

It is a shame when you have a car that could potentially accelerate quickly off the line get stuck spinning while the 80hp Subaru/SUV lurches forward.
Are stopping and turning not performance attributes? Last time I checked, they are.

Again, I concede AWD will launch better from a dead stop in moderate or barely slippery road conditions, but sorry, nothing is launching hard from a dead stop on snow and ice-covered roads with 500+ HP. You're going to have to ease it off the line no matter what.

I think I've made all the points I wanted to make. Time to bow out and let everyone carry on without my redundant input. I'll leave the thread by saying again that I'm glad BMW gave us AWD and RWD options so everyone can be happy driving the car how they like to drive.
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      11-21-2021, 02:36 PM   #58
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Why would I buy an AWD car and pay more for it if I'm going to prefer to drive it in RWD mode? Makes zero sense.
Why would other people do it? You can learn why in videos like this one - a G80 RWD owner praising the AWD car:
https://g80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1876546

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Originally Posted by CP911 View Post
I would then get all the downsides mentioned and no upside. Or are we so brainwashed and addicted to technology today that we lust for new features without really understanding why we have them and without considering whether they actually add real value to our lives or not?
In some ironic way, the RWD automatic is meant exactly for people like you. Not because of the downsides you mentioned, but because you truly think those downsides are real and matter more than the upsides in the face of consistent evidence pointing otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CP911 View Post
I haven't driven a G80 yet, but I'd be curious to drive the xDrive back to back with the RWD to see how they really feel when sitting in the driver's seat
This is just gold. There are many reputable people on YouTube claiming, uniformly, having driven both cars extensively, the exact opposite of what you merely have suspicions of having never even driven either car. Not one person with any reputation is saying the things you are.
One more: https://g80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1876317

Quote:
Originally Posted by CP911 View Post
Also, AWD does nothing to help a vehicle stop or turn better. The tires have whatever inherent grip they will have. Therefore, I don't accept the notion that AWD automatically makes for a better daily driver just because you can accelerate off the line faster in slippery road conditions. Big deal. It's not like you are towing or going off-roading where AWD actually has a purpose and a job to do.
More misinformed opinions presented as fact mixed in with things nobody is disputing (nobody has said AWD stops faster). Can an AWD complete the entirety of a corner (entry, apex and exit) faster and more safely at the same time than an RWD? Yes, it can, consistently with all other factors being equal. This matters to people buying performance cars and has been proven in the real world, as opposed to your unsubstantiated hypotheses. If that's not a big deal for you, please, by all means, go get a RWD, which btw is slower to 60 than the M440i in wet conditions. You are not representative of 99% of the user base for the automatics. Just about every M3/M4 that's arriving at my dealership now is AWD.

There is a reason high end supercars/hypercars are mostly all wheel drive. It's not for towing or for going off-roading like you are suggesting. Lol.

I really have to address this line piece by piece:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CP911 View Post
However, for me, the additional weight penalty on an already hefty car,
That no reviewer could perceive. It's literally like a 2-3% difference that has only positive effects on outcomes below 140 mph.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CP911 View Post
a more forward-biased weight distribution,
Which the front wheels are ready to take advantage of when the rear has no more traction to provide (in a corner or in a straight).

Quote:
Originally Posted by CP911 View Post
and a more complicated drivetrain in terms of maintenance and cost
I'd presume this is not a problem for the average M car owner. Granted, it could be for some who stretch a lot to get one, and that extra 5% or less is too much (which makes me question their financial judgement in getting an M3/4 in the first place, but whatever).

Also you know what's even less complicated? The manual gearbox. Go for that if this is what is important to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CP911 View Post
simply could never be worth the ability to take off from a dead stop a little bit quicker
25% quicker to 60 in the real world in perfectly dry conditions is not a "little bit quicker". And that's not the only benefit - the limits to which you can navigate corners faster without compromising safety are much higher.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion but not to their own facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CP911 View Post
On the contrary, it rains and snows a shit ton here near Chicago. I simply understand from 20 years of experience driving through the terrible winters that true winter tires + RWD will outperform all seasons + AWD every single time.
Lewis Hamilton in an RWD with winter tires will outperform the average Joe in an AWD with summer tires. Only the truly scientifically-challenged and professional trolls (which one are you?) will conclude from such an observation that RWD > AWD.

All other things equal, the AWD will outperform (except above 140 mph). Same car, same driver, same tires, same conditions, same roads. The only variable being RWD vs. AWD. That's how you come to conclusions that have a basis in reality.
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      11-21-2021, 03:21 PM   #59
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I think G80 AWD has a great potential as an Overlanding vehicle. Move over air cooled overpriced (100K-500K) "safari" 911s, there is a new kid on the block.
With a lift kit, full underbody skid plates and set of narrow all terrain tires, this could become a weapon on dirt roads. Heck, even put some steel front bumper to update the styling at the same time. Chuck it in 2WD to practice drifting or put it in 4WD to leave Subarus in the dust.
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      11-21-2021, 03:35 PM   #60
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@ kjx - I'll step back in just for you since you took such great time and care to break down my posts and assert your knowledge.

You made some great points. I understand AWD puts the power down better and it translates to better corner exit as a result. No one is arguing that. My comments were only about inherent tire grip when turning or stopping, neither of which are improved by AWD.

That 1/2 second didn't come from nowhere. It's about putting the power down. Nothing more, nothing less. Again, the numbers don't lie. No one is arguing the numbers.

But is the 1/2 second worth it to someone like me who values simplicity and purity over outright acceleration capabilities? I've made it abundantly clear that no, it is not. This is a conscious preference knowing all the real "facts." So why do we have to speak of irony here?

FWIW, since you find my lack of experience with the G80's M xDrive so amusing, I have thoroughly test driven a M5C and was blown away by the drama-free straight line acceleration of it…for all of 2 or 3 pulls before I became utterly bored of it and realized I was at triple-digits speeds in the blink of an eye, risking losing my driver's license for no real thrill or reason. Bragging rights? No, not something I'm interested in. I'd go buy a Tesla if that was something I wanted.

I don't want to open a whole new can of worms, but didn't the xDrive model get a modest power bump over the RWD model? Are we even comparing apples to apples here when discussing a 1/2 second in lap times and all of these other "factually based" performance claims? Yes, the AWD weighs more, so a bump in HP might be warranted to keep things more even, but shouldn't the inherent performance benefit of AWD alone make up for the weight gain? Why add HP if AWD is so much faster? Just thinking out loud here.

Finally, I find it pretty crazy that so many people are arguing that a 100-150 lbs weight penalty cannot be felt, all other things being perfectly equal (which admittedly isn't the exact case here given AWD vs RWD is the primary point of discussion). Maybe I have a super human sense of G-forces, but even my wife's X7 xDrive40i at 6000 lbs is noticeably slower to accelerate and stop when 200 lbs worth of wife and child are added to the equation. My M240i was far slower to accelerate when I took my 160 lbs younger brother for a ride. I was a bit embarrassed actually, because I talked up the acceleration to him only to be disappointed once he was along for the ride. But I do understand confirmation bias can lead to a lack of acknowledgement of such things - if you paid for the AWD car, of course you can't feel the weight penalty.
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      11-21-2021, 03:50 PM   #61
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Huh? The RWD and xdrive have the exact same HP and torque.
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      11-21-2021, 03:55 PM   #62
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      11-21-2021, 04:00 PM   #63
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A lot of time wasted debating this. Over and over and over. Get whichever you want , both are great.
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      11-21-2021, 04:36 PM   #64
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AWD vs RWD, 6MT vs Auto etc. etc.. beating a dead horse. Just get what you want and drive it like you stole it!
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      11-21-2021, 04:45 PM   #65
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I am constantly amazed at the people who are saying the AWD has a different steering feel and driving dynamics, yet have never driven one. Almost all professional and amateur reviewers are saying there is no difference, with some noting the AWD version is more likely to kick the rear out. I personally have experienced this during an autocross where I gave just a little too much throttle out of a sweeper and did a nice long drift. If you haven't driven one, I would bet 99% of you would never know it's AWD.
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      11-21-2021, 09:32 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe View Post
Does it not rain where you are?
Yes, and when it does, I drive like a sane person, so I have no fear in my RWD G82 of being "dangerous". I'm not racing down public roads in a spirited fashion in the rain. For me, not worth the risk with other drivers on the road, especially since many don't drive well in inclement weather (slippery, lower visibility, etc.)

And hec, when you read comments like the below, who cares about "safety" anyway, it's all about the performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Onesie View Post
I think you're missing the point and conflating things. Nobody ever discussed "safety" here. You shouldn't talk about it.

This is a performance car.
AWD is a performance feature. Especially in inclement weather.

It is a shame when you have a car that could potentially accelerate quickly off the line get stuck spinning while the 80hp Subaru/SUV lurches forward.
Indeed. So if you're one to feel "bad" about your purchase when an 80hp Subaru beats you to 30 mph because they had more traction in the first 2 seconds, then by all means buy an AWD vehicle to prevent that sadness from happening to you.

Many of us are not stoplight racers. So I could care less that the Subaru pulls me across the intersection, because the Subaru owner and I both know which car we'd rather be in ...and if we're traveling any farther than 150 feet, we both know that I'll be blowing past them, if I wanted to.

But if real world 0 to 60 and 1/4 mile races are everything to you, obviously you should get the AWD version.

And really, as I've always said, if you have the money, the AWD version is likely the better purchase for most. But if you're trying to save money, and you're not on a consistent mission of squeezing every ounce of performance out of a G8X, then I contend that the RWD will do just fine for most, since it has loads of traction in its own right.
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