[M3WC]

Originally Posted by tranquility

I don't get this part, because nobody is forcing them to get an EV. It's kinda like if I love the new Bronco but my garage can only fit a Prius, should I blame myself or the infrastructure/etc? Ppl need to think things through.

No one said they were. OP simply asked a question. The answer is just that, they can't buy a EV and have reliable transportation. An ICE or hybrid is better suited for the situation of no parking with charging.

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by M3WC

No one said they were. OP simply asked a question. The answer is just that, they can't buy a EV and have reliable transportation. An ICE or hybrid is better suited for the situation of no parking with charging.

So what's everyone arguing about then? It's just the status quo for now, doesn't mean it won't change in the future, but ya...

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by tranquility

So what's everyone arguing about then? It's just the status quo for now, doesn't mean it won't change in the future, but ya...

I don't see much arguing. Except for the genius that called the OP's question fear mongering.

[JJ 911SC]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

I'm no fan of EVs... mainly because I find them boring and soulless...

There is exception

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by JJ 911SC

There is exception

ehhhh maaaaaaybe..... more fun than a model 3 for sure. But more fun than a 911? Not sure about that...

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by M3WC

I don't see much arguing. Except for the genius that called the OP's question fear mongering.

I'm pretty sure that post was directed at EV-bashers later ITT and not the OP.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

I live in a condo. Our building has already approved the use of an EV charger if we wish. Our building easily has enough capacity to electrify all the parking spots. Would only cost me a couple thousand to run power to both my parking spots.

Enough with the fear mongering already.

Asking legitimate questions is not fear mongering.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by tranquility

I don't get this part, because nobody is forcing them to get an EV. It's kinda like if I love the new Bronco but my garage can only fit a Prius, should I blame myself or the infrastructure/etc? Ppl need to think things through.

Need I remind you of the countless ICE "bans" announced by some EU countries as well as some US states?

They want to ensure people have no other choice, without being pragmatic about infrastructure shortcomings. Unless charging times rapidly improve where a gas station model for EV recharging is feasible, it is going to be very very difficult for such bans to be enacted. Again, street parking and apartment parking is incredibly common. It is impossible to install EV chargers everywhere for citizens dependent on that.

There's also the assumption that people with access to home charging will remember to plug in their cars 100% of the time. My friend's wife frequently forgets to charge her Model 3, so many mornings he is forced to drop her at work.

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

Need I remind you of the countless ICE "bans" announced by some EU countries as well as some US states?

They want to ensure people have no other choice, without being pragmatic about infrastructure shortcomings. Unless charging times rapidly improve where a gas station model for EV recharging is feasible, it is going to be very very difficult for such bans to be enacted. Again, street parking and apartment parking is incredibly common. It is impossible to install EV chargers everywhere for citizens dependent on that.

There's also the assumption that people with access to home charging will remember to plug in their cars 100% of the time. My friend's wife frequently forgets to charge her Model 3, so many mornings he is forced to drop her at work.

I'm not in this topic but I'm vaguely aware of them. What's the earliest deadline and where (say, applicable to N Amer), just so we can gauge if this transition is even remotely probable w/o major hitches. Are they banning gas stns and ICEs? A whole can of worms but I doubt as incompetent as govts seem to be, that they would shoot themselves in the foot by effecting a crazily-rushed and unstable transition.

[G35POPPEDMYCHERRY]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

People are really, really not thinking this through. Like at all.

I have been very bullish for a long time that we will not see EV's take over, I can see a relatively even split between EV, Hybrid and ICE in the near future, EV will explode for a short time but then plateau.

I have also been very, very bullish that range is not as big a concern as people make out, the issue, is public charging, though it is tied to range to some degree.

I see the following concerns;

• Charge times are still quite long, it will improve but until down to under 15 minutes, it is a significant barrier
• Folks are feeling the need to be "always topped" because of a combination of range fears (to a degree) but also lack of faith in public charging availability
• Public infrastructure needs to be immense, we need far more chargers than pumps due to a) time it takes to charge and B) range limitations. So a) who is paying for this and b) who is going to actually do it?
• There's also the issue of improved tech, in say 5 or at the very least 10 years, it is highly likely the initial batch of chargers will need to be replaced by newer, faster chargers. This is IMMENSLY expensive once you start considering the sheer scope of this.

I am a ruthless pragmatist, i have no skin in this game other than a) i live near a highway so cleaner the emissions the better and b) i am saddened to lose sports cars to EV.

I don't see how we can convert to EV as quickly as people claim, it reminds me a lot of the AI driving that was going to change the world 5 years ago. I called bullshit then and it looks all but dead. I don't think EV will die but I strongly feel hybrid will have a role for a long, long time, as in decades.

get out of here with these facts TSLA to the moon

[POBEP]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

If electric vehicles are the future, what about those in apartments? A large amount of people live in apartments and have cars. ... I have a real hard time seeing apartment complexes investing massive sums into installing hundreds, if not thousands of charging stations in their lots.

~10 years ago I did my share on the HOA Board in relatively old complex (4 condo buildings and sizable number of townhouses).

At the time EV were new and not much popular.

One of condo owners asked questions and took initiative to work with HOA. I owned town home and the subject was not much relevant. However, as board member my job was to serve my community.

We partnered with EvGO and installed 4 charging spots in each condo building.

Most cost was covered by EvGO.
Due to building age an absent budget it was less than ideal solution.

Some challenges:
- we did not had separate meter for EV feeder line. Hence, EvGO is reimbursing HOA for electricity cost. This is less than ideal, as someone in HOA has to monitor/validate accuracy.
- legally, garage spots are owned by residents. hence, lots of paperwork for those who wanted a plug at their spot.
- the supply line capacity was limited to 4 spaces, while each building had 16-22 units. at the time we barely got 4 people sign up per building

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by G35POPPEDMYCHERRY

get out of here with these facts TSLA to the moon

OT but holy crap you weren't kidding, approx 230x ROI. Who the hell knew to hold it until now and beyond?

[King_Leonard]

Originally Posted by tranquility

OT but holy crap you weren't kidding, approx 230x ROI. Who the hell knew to hold it until now and beyond?

Hodl

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by tranquility

I don't get this part, because nobody is forcing them to get an EV. It's kinda like if I love the new Bronco but my garage can only fit a Prius, should I blame myself or the infrastructure/etc? Ppl need to think things through.

When you have Governments essentially banning the internal combustion engine in 2030, that is forcing people to get an EV.

The issue with EV charging, regardless of battery tech, is the charging side. Rate of charge is inverse to the quantity of electrons moved through a wire. The faster electrical energy is transfered to the battery the lower the charge time. Moving 60,000 watts in 10 minutes to a battery requires expensive and heavy equipment for both the charger and battery controller. It generates a lot of heat and requires sophisticated safety protocols and equipment to prevent injury.

The current generation of ICE drivers expect to regain range on the order of 400 miles in just a few minutes, and for $55 virtually anywhere they are and decide to refuel. EV charging infrastructure is going to have a hard time equalling that capability.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by tranquility

I'm not in this topic but I'm vaguely aware of them. What's the earliest deadline and where (say, applicable to N Amer), just so we can gauge if this transition is even remotely probable w/o major hitches. Are they banning gas stns and ICEs? A whole can of worms but I doubt as incompetent as govts seem to be, that they would shoot themselves in the foot by effecting a crazily-rushed and unstable transition.

These people in Government think they can "save" a planet from its natural cycle of transformation of life that inhabits it. You really believe these people think rationally about a stable transition to EV, which will just swap out one set of problems for another? A basic understanding of geology and paleontology tell you these people in Government are irrational.

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

When you have Governments essentially banning the internal combustion engine in 2030, that is forcing people to get an EV.

The issue with EV charging, regardless of battery tech, is the charging side. Rate of charge is inverse to the quantity of electrons moved through a wire. The faster electrical energy is transfered to the battery the lower the charge time. Moving 60,000 watts in 10 minutes to a battery requires expensive and heavy equipment for both the charger and battery controller. It generates a lot of heat and requires sophisticated safety protocols and equipment to prevent injury.

The current generation of ICE drivers expect to regain range on the order of 400 miles in just a few minutes, and for $55 virtually anywhere they are and decide to refuel. EV charging infrastructure is going to have a hard time equalling that capability.

Yes, that makes sense and agreed as that being the main prb. However, let's see what kind of banning will actually take place 8 years from now and also what happens to existing ICEs and gas stns. Things can happen in the meantime.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

These people in Government think they can "save" a planet from its natural cycle of transformation of life that inhabits it. You really believe these people think rationally about a stable transition to EV, which will just swap out one set of problems for another? A basic understanding of geology and paleontology tell you these people in Government are irrational.

Oh, I have no doubt about the chaos govts can reek(argh, can't be bother to spell it right or maybe that's not the right word?) upon societies after witnessing the THING THAT CANNOT BE NAMED which happened over the past 2 years & counting, but who knows what can happen in 8 years, if laws get changed, etc.

[Red Bread]

I live on a short loop road that shares an entrance to a large apartment complex with a multi story garage with no EV connections. It amazes me how many people in there have Teslas. There must be 20-30. I gather most either charge at work or at the mall across the street that has multiple chargers. There's also a shopping center less than a mile up the road that has a number of charging ports in one corner.

It doesn't appear to be as large of a logistical issue for owners as I think a lot of people make it out to be.

[yousefnjr]

I’m fairly certain most of the weirdo bus people also live in apartments, sounds like you’ll be squeezing in between Crusty Pete and The Fivehead. Godspeed.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by tranquility

Yes, that makes sense and agreed as that being the main prb. However, let's see what kind of banning will actually take place 8 years from now and also what happens to existing ICEs and gas stns. Things can happen in the meantime.




Oh, I have no doubt about the chaos govts can reek(argh, can't be bothered to spell it right or maybe that's not the right word?) upon societies after witnessing the THING THAT CANNOT BE NAMED which happened over the past 2 years & counting, but who knows what can happen in 8 years, if laws get changed, etc.

But if Governments pass laws now that ban ICE a decade away and then later change their minds because the public doesn't accept the change (i.e. political pressure), or the infrastructure is not upgraded to support the change, it plays havoc with product planning. Laws are written on paper and can be changed simply at the movement of an ink pen in a politician's hand. Converting over from an internal combustion engine product-based manufacturing system to an electric vehicle product-based system requires decades of supply-chain planning and production line conversion along with car model designs; it's not like planting a seed in the ground and getting a corn stalk to grow. So if the ICE ban is on the horizon now, manufacturers are going to plan for the target date a decade out, changing the law at the 12th hour to repeal the ICE ban is meaningless; the conversion is already set in motion. That's why some of us see EV being forced upon the public now, who at this point, even with significant availability of EV model proliferation, are not yet interested in converting.

These are multi-billion dollar business, which most politicians have no understanding how they actually function.

[SteveinArizona]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

If electric vehicles are the future, what about those in apartments? A large amount of people live in apartments and have cars. They are constantly building massive apartment complexes and hardly any have charging stations and if they do, it's for a handful of cars. So what exactly are these people to do once all the automakers change to electric? I have a real hard time seeing apartment complexes investing massive sums into installing hundreds, if not thousands of charging stations in their lots.

Side question? What happens to those in electric cars stuck in blizzard on highways for hours on end and their cars discharge? How the hell do you get all those uncharged cars off road? Bring in a bunch of generators and tow trucks?

As charging systems improve, one will be able to to go a charging station and load up in ten or 20 minutes, similar to a gas station.

As to the Blizzard, someone did a test after the Virginia blizzard using a Tesla and it lasted longer running heat than did the gas powered cars.

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

But if Governments pass laws now that ban ICE a decade away and then later change their minds because the public doesn't accept the change (i.e. political pressure), or the infrastructure is not upgraded to support the change, it plays havoc with product planning. Laws are written on paper and can be changed simply at the movement of an ink pen in a politician's hand. Converting over from an internal combustion engine product-based manufacturing system to an electric vehicle product-based system requires decades of supply-chain planning and production line conversion along with car model designs; it's not like planting a seed in the ground and getting a corn stalk to grow. So if the ICE ban is on the horizon now, manufacturers are going to plan for the target date a decade out, changing the law at the 12th hour to repeal the ICE ban is meaningless; the conversion is already set in motion. That's why some of us see EV being forced upon the public now, who at this point, even with significant availability of EV model proliferation, are not yet interested in converting.

These are multi-billion dollar business, which most politicians have no understanding how they actually function.

I dunno man, this really isn't my topic of interest. You raise obvious and valid concerns but I personally don't see it turning out to be a crapshow. It's gonna be a gradual process, not a BOOM! sudden thing. Things will work out fine in the end. Heck, didn't Sweden switch from RHD to LHD 'overnight'? If they could pull that off w/o any major hitches/accidents, it'll be alright for this since this is not sudden and it's incremental, it's already happening and the change is just gradual.

[JJ 911SC]

Originally Posted by tranquility

... Heck, didn't Sweden switch from RHD to LHD 'overnight'?...

Ja, högertrafikomläggningen, 05.00 den 3 september 1967