[dmk08]

Originally Posted by Wills2

The S58 is the best turbo M engine they have produced, clearly you haven't driven it, it fabulous and really strong, fantastic response makes the S55 feel breathless at high rpm (which it was and still is)

100% max torque at 2600rpm does not a laggy engine make...

The B58 in the M340i seems to have oil consumption issues from the threads over there. Anything like that on the S58?

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by brad850csi

B12 Shift-tronic, interesting comparison

How about a Mondial T Valeo?

[SW19]

Originally Posted by lemetier

How about a Mondial T Valeo?

Will that technology find its way into the new G87 M2?Now that DCT is being discontinued by BMW,it would be great to be able to shift like a traditional manual transmission but not have the physical clutch.Would shifting speed be just as quick as DCT?

[solstice]

Originally Posted by lemetier

How about a Mondial T Valeo?

Interesting, the Valeo transmission works like Saab’s sensonic, without the 3rd pedal. Since the footwork seen in the video posted in this thread have a 3rd pedal does this comment mean that there is a clutch pedal less mode as well?

Or as Top gear seem to think, a ladies mode

[Holset]

Originally Posted by lemetier

Could the past be the answer for the future?

BMW manual transmission patent.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=701345

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by dmk08

The B58 in the M340i seems to have oil consumption issues from the threads over there. Anything like that on the S58?

None in mine to date. Also I think the talk about the turbo lag is a little over the top. Yes it has turbo lag but it's not 80/90's turbo lag. I don't find it considerably worse than the N55 in my M2. This is the first DI turbocharged engine I have driven that doesn't give the typical big midrange punch and then peter out at 6k RPM. It just keeps pulling and pulling harder all the way to redline and honestly feels like a tuned version of the 5.0L Coyote engine than most modern turbocharged engines that have turbochargers sized for midrange power.

[dmk08]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

None in mine to date. Also I think the talk about the turbo lag is a little over the top. Yes it has turbo lag but it's not 80/90's turbo lag. I don't find it considerably worse than the N55 in my M2. This is the first DI turbocharged engine I have driven that doesn't give the typical big midrange punch and then peter out at 6k RPM. It just keeps pulling and pulling harder all the way to redline and honestly feels like a tuned version of the 5.0L Coyote engine than most modern turbocharged engines that have turbochargers sized for midrange power.

I test drove the M340i for about 20 miles and I noticed the lag but not severe. Definitely worse than an F80 M3 tho.

I just saw a huge thread on the oil consumption. Maybe overblown as things generally are on here.

[av.7447]

now... hang on a sec... 🧐 Lemetier, does this mean I won’t be able to roll start a manual G80 M3 when my battery or starter dies? 😩
I still remember how my starter died on my 1998 6 speed 540i ... I didn’t have enough money to change the starter so I roll started it for a good 3 months... I was 19 though at a time, so it was not embarrassing at all 😅🤣

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by av.7447

does this mean I won't be able to roll start a manual G80 M3 when my battery or starter dies?

Brace yourselves.

That was the very first question I had. Still no answer, but I'm almost certain I already know it.

[xlover]

Originally Posted by lemetier

Brace yourselves.

That was the very first question I had. Still no answer, but I'm almost certain I already know it.

Maybe the better question is:
Should we really be roll starting $80k sport sedans, weighing 3700lbs, with FREE roadside assistance?

[solstice]

Originally Posted by xlover

Maybe the better question is:
Should we really be roll starting $80k sport sedans, weighing 3700lbs, with FREE roadside assistance?

Lol, agreed. I haven’t needed to roll start a car since the 90s, bikes is a different story. Just a few months ago

[Remonster]

Originally Posted by robopp

I find that comment very interesting. So if it's a different motor are the new X3Ms going to get it? Also, what could they change that would effect the turbo lag being reported by the X3M group without changing the output? I'll add that it certainly has turbo lag, but not that much. S58 loves to rev out though.

Look at the S63 V8 twin turbo motor, there have been four variants:

S63B44O0 - E70 X5M & E71 X6M

S63B44T0 - F10 M5, F06/12/13 M6

S63B44T2 - F85 X5M & F86 X6M

S63B44T4 - F90 M5, F91/92/93 M8, F95 X5M, F96 X6M

T0 added Valvetronic, increased compression, and increased max boost so the M5 and M6 had a higher performing variant of the motor that originally launched in the X5M and X6M. Then the second gen X5M and X6M got a new version of the engine, and finally F90 M5 got generation 4 which is now shared with the latest X5M and X6M.

Historically, if the SUV gets the engine first it receives some meaningful updates before it goes into an M sedan or coupe. There's no guarantee that the trend will continue, of course.

[SeanWRT]

In the S58 case, here are a few obvious ways of tackling lag.

1) Increase compression ratio. This does not only improve spool up, but also add power throughout the band. At a cost of maximum boost possible, but the S58 has plenty headroom left in it.

2) improve exhaust manifold design, which, in the S58 case, is already manifold-cylinder head one piece design that utilize 3D print tech. There're sources having tested it who finds out the current design is shockingly not flowing well at all despite of how much hype the BMW is making out of the one-piece and 3D combo.

3) Change the turbo. It's the most effective way but the most unlikely way, because:
a. Change to a smaller turbo meaning a harder working turbo for the same peak power. Reliability compromised, warranty cost increase, and significantly less performance under extreme condition (track, road course).
b. Change to a superior turbo (better CHRA, better cold and hot side) meaning significant cost increase and without the matching customer perceived value. The most of regular customers care only peak power number which doesn't change.

4) Some kind of anti lag system. They said they did it to the S55 already but I don't really find how it works from anywhere. But you can refer to Porsche who explained pretty well how the "response button" functions and the science behind it. It'd be great for the bmw to do something similar and even smarter which means more useable and less driver interference.

5) 48V torque fill, or electrical blower. Which is the topic of this thread.

#1, 2, 4 are workable, but god knows how many revision that would take. The m3 at launch doesn't seem to have them all or any.

#5 is bound to happen at some point but 100% not now.

#3 is near impossible. BMW spent years cost cutting, they have zero intent to increase cost and don't pass value to the mass audience.

Sean

[robopp]

Originally Posted by Remonster

Look at the S63 V8 twin turbo motor, there have been four variants:

S63B44O0 - E70 X5M & E71 X6M

S63B44T0 - F10 M5, F06/12/13 M6

S63B44T2 - F85 X5M & F86 X6M

S63B44T4 - F90 M5, F91/92/93 M8, F95 X5M, F96 X6M

T0 added Valvetronic, increased compression, and increased max boost so the M5 and M6 had a higher performing variant of the motor that originally launched in the X5M and X6M. Then the second gen X5M and X6M got a new version of the engine, and finally F90 M5 got generation 4 which is now shared with the latest X5M and X6M.

Historically, if the SUV gets the engine first it receives some meaningful updates before it goes into an M sedan or coupe. There's no guarantee that the trend will continue, of course.

Interesting. Do you have a list of changes for the various revisions?

[mbanck]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

BMW doesn't seem to be committed to the manual transmission much longer. Only the M2, M3, and M4 will carry the torch once the F22/F23 end next year.

That's for the top-rated engines. On the (non-US) lower end, there's still 6MTs in the 1er, 2er (GC, AT and GT), G20/G21 3er, Z4, X1 and X2. So independently of the clutch-by-wire discussion in this thread, there's still a stick and third pedal being designed into most models below the 5er/X3.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by mbanck

That's for the top-rated engines. On the (non-US) lower end, there's still 6MTs in the 1er, 2er (GC, AT and GT), G20/G21 3er, Z4, X1 and X2.

True - I should have been more careful with my words. When it comes to performance cars, those I mention will soon (once F22/F23 production ends) be the only ones left. For lower end models, the manual transmission remains primarily as means to keep starting prices low while keeping costs competitive with other automakers.

[bm323]

Originally Posted by Remonster

Look at the S63 V8 twin turbo motor, there have been four variants:

S63B44O0 - E70 X5M & E71 X6M

S63B44T0 - F10 M5, F06/12/13 M6

S63B44T2 - F85 X5M & F86 X6M

S63B44T4 - F90 M5, F91/92/93 M8, F95 X5M, F96 X6M

T0 added Valvetronic, increased compression, and increased max boost so the M5 and M6 had a higher performing variant of the motor that originally launched in the X5M and X6M. Then the second gen X5M and X6M got a new version of the engine, and finally F90 M5 got generation 4 which is now shared with the latest X5M and X6M.

Historically, if the SUV gets the engine first it receives some meaningful updates before it goes into an M sedan or coupe. There's no guarantee that the trend will continue, of course.

BMW did say the S63 in the F90 is modified compared to the F10 M5's http://australiancar.reviews/reviews...el=M5&gen=1622

Did BMW not say that the G80/82 has the same engine as the X3M?
https://www.bmwblog.com/2019/03/12/b...et-s58-engine/

https://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-ne...-ar187592.html

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...rumors-photos/

Is there any official news that the G80/82 will have a new variant of the S58 vs X3M's? I understand Lemetier has said so, and he's probably correct; but nothing from BMW direct?

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by bm323

BMW did say the S63 in the F90 is modified compared to the F10 M5's http://australiancar.reviews/reviews...5&gen=1622

Did BMW not say that the G80/82 has the same engine as the X3M?
https://www.bmwblog.com/2019/03/12/b...et-s58-engine/

https://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-ne...-ar187592.html

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...rumors-photos/

Is there any official news that the G80/82 will have a new variant of the S58 vs X3M's? I understand Lemetier has said so, and he's probably correct; but nothing from BMW direct?

See for yourself.

X3M
Alpina B3
G80 M3

[bm323]

Originally Posted by lemetier

See for yourself.

X3M
Alpina B3
G80 M3

Thanks, Lemetier; I'm no engineer but it sure looks different

I hope this G80/82 S58 variant is more reliable than the S63 in the F10 as the S63 is not reliable above 120k km; am just referring to their reliability as I understand they are different.

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by bm323

Thanks, Lemetier; I'm no engineer but it sure looks different

I hope this G80/82 S58 variant is more reliable than the S63 in the F10 as the S63 is not reliable above 120k km; am just referring to their reliability as I understand they are different.

I'm just an amateur engineer but professional driver

The revised intake system is enough on its own to be a different variant. The 7th and 8th characters of the engine designations don't have the same meaning since EU6 emissions.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by lemetier

See for yourself.

X3M
Alpina B3
G80 M3

Hmm...where are the G80’s fresh air intakes to the blowers? Placed closer to the them for better/quicker/sharper response?

Everyone know the difference from breathing from a short straw vs a long...

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by solstice

Hmm...where are the G80's fresh air intakes to the blowers? Placed closer to the them for better/quicker/sharper response?

Everyone know the difference from breathing from a short straw vs a long...

Routed better than this hot mess.