[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by SwankPeRFection

OK, so what car did you beat on that coffee run that put that smile on your face? Lol

Hahaha.... none actually - just enjoying rowing the gears!

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by xxyion

I think in many ways the M3 can be argued that its the best in its class, but for an M4 there are quite a lot of alternatives. Which i think is kind of the downside of the car. While i do love my M4, and the fact that it does have usable back seats, i specifically got it due to it being a coupe (M3 B-pillar is actually in the way of my arm because i'm 6'3") and i never really cared about transporting people around. Thats what my Golf R is for.

If you just want a coupe, i think in some ways the M2 might be the better sports car, and i did have one on order, but i didnt want to wait 6 months for mine. Used 991.2s are about the same price or cheaper depending on your area, and then of course theres always the Supra and then the Cayman GTS which is about the same price.

As an M4 owner of 1 month. I'm already looking towards my next purchase. Its a fun car, its fast as hell and really comfy, but its too big for me and not sporty enough either.

That being said if i had gotten an M3 instead of the Golf R i think i'd be of a different mindset. I do actually think the M3 is the more special of the two and does double duty a lot better. And there really is no comparison for the price you pay vs the quality and performance that you get for a sports sedan.

I think my ideal garage would actually be an M3/4 as a daily and a GT4/3 as my weekend sports car. But i do hate how crappy our gas mileage is. I mean like cmon. Even my GT4 was getting 32 MPG at some points. Best i can do with my M4 is 23.

Man, I'm getting 15 mpg moping around town, but I don't even care. But we got 25 mpg on a 600 mile road trip. Not too bad. GT3 would see lower mileage. Not sure about the GT4.

I agree with your M3 v M4 thoughts. I ordered an M4, but I got the M3 instead for some of the reasons you mentioned.

[GolfCoyote]

Originally Posted by robopp

RS3 I5 is an absolute monster from a moding perspective, 4 doors, and AWD. No manual, unfortunately. And starts out at $61.7k new! Not a lot out there than can beat the I5 sound too.

And the new ones the computer is totally locked and can’t be tuned. Rods and pistons are also required if you want to get over 600whp from what I’ve read.

[christianb5s4]

Originally Posted by GolfCoyote

And the new ones the computer is totally locked and can’t be tuned. Rods and pistons are also required if you want to get over 600whp from what I’ve read.

People have even bent rods and blown motors on basic stage 1 tunes. The only way to hit 600whp on a stock I5 RS3/TTRS motor is to tune TQ way down.

[ElCoqui]

What about the Ct5-V Blackwing? A well equipped M3 is not to far off the price of a base Blackwing and it's an amazing car.

[KevinGS]

Having driven both Blackwings, I believe they are indeed formidable competition to the G8X platform, especially when you're comparing the manual transmission models.

The ride quality is top-notch, yet both still handle really well.

And the BW5 sounds the bizness, stock.

Yes, many prefer the BMW interior, but for a high-performance weekend toy, a "better interior" matters less to many enthusiasts. The engine, suspension, transmission and exhaust note are all higher on the list, and the Blackwings got a lot right.

[lizardx]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

Perhaps I’m just in a good mood after a coffee run, but IMO there is no formidable competition.

And perhaps I’m biased having been an M3 lover for 30 years and owned 4 gens. But here’s my argument:

Cadillac: dealers are awful, interiors are cheap, V6 is powerful but not their V8 and not as satisfying as the S58. The M3 loaded is pushing into Blackhawk territory, and some videos are comparing that with the M3 - the M3 is just as quick around a track and lighter, too.

AR GQ - amazing thoroughbred, outstanding driving dynamics - but the Achilles heel is the reliability and availability, no manual and no AWD. I’ve seen a couple of these around here in green, and they are gorgeous. But the interior is average. Both M3’s I’ve had win- comp x drive and manual.

AMG: hybrid, heavy. Maybe when the V8 returns.

Audi: what the heck are they doing? Dated and overpriced. When the RS5 had a V8 it was desirable.

M3: amazing interior and exterior options. Has held its value. Still super high demand. Manual and AWD options. Incredible engine. Looks awesome.

Long time lurker, but decided to chip in as I own Giulia QV.

Mine is 2018, has 130.000 km (cca 80.000 miles), its my daily, gets me to work every day, summer or winter, and I also track it 4 or more times per year, it also has a tune. So far its really been bullet proof, it just works. But can't speak for other owners.

However, compared to the M3 G80, its has too soft suspension, and too narrow front tires (245 compared to 275 of G80). Suspension stiffnes (and front camber) can be sorted, but its hard to fit more than 255 (perhaps 265) front tires; and once it settles into the corner on track it understeers. Some have succeeded fitting a square setup (285 F and R), but that requieres adjustable upper control arms and -3° or even more camber - so not for street/daily driving. On the other hand, steering on Giulia is just super quick, responsive and direct - no other car in this class comes close.

Where Giulia severly lags behind is tech - its 5 or more years behind the BMW/Audi etc, and its a total joke for 2023... Some people care about those sort of things some don't. Interior however on mine holds up prety well to be honest, but it does not feel as high-end as M3 or RS5.

Manual - Giulia was actually available as manual in the EU for first 2 years of production, but was an unpopular choice.
Manual gearbox and turbo engine is just not a good performance combination - not only shifts are slower, you loose much more boost during shifts compared to AT8 (or other autobox, DCT, ...).
Manual is a dead tech, especially nowadays when basically every performance car is turbocharged.
Additionally, almost all cars today have at least ACC, and/or autonomous driving capabilities.


RS5 - I would not cosider it a competitor at all - its a FWD chassis, where whole engine sits infront of the front axle, making weight distribution 60/40 if not worse... Its a very good motorway car, and very easy to drive fast, but once you push over 8/10, it just understeers through the corners too much, and you feel that weight of the engine infront of front tires. They improved its driving dynamics with Competition model (a bit wider tires, coilovers, perhaps more camber and agressive OEM tires, but no matter what you do, a heavy 3 litre V6 still sits infront of front axle - and this is felt).


AMG C-Class - reviews say it all; its just not a great product for AMG badge. And then there is the weight - cars are already very heavy these days, so I think this is a wrong direction as well.


So all in all, M3 G80 is a car sorted on every level and overall best in class, except that front end, which will never ever work for me.

[USMC_Sam]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

Get an RSQ8 for $140k or an RS6 Avant for $160k while you still can!

I've never seen one for sale (either RS6 or RSQ8) that didnt have at least a 30k mark up.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by ElCoqui

What about the Ct5-V Blackwing? A well equipped M3 is not to far off the price of a base Blackwing and it's an amazing car.

Originally Posted by KevinGS

Having driven both Blackwings, I believe they are indeed formidable competition to the G8X platform, especially when you're comparing the manual transmission models.

The ride quality is top-notch, yet both still handle really well.

And the BW5 sounds the bizness, stock.

Yes, many prefer the BMW interior, but for a high-performance weekend toy, a "better interior" matters less to many enthusiasts. The engine, suspension, transmission and exhaust note are all higher on the list, and the Blackwings got a lot right.

Dealers and interior quality and brand trumped both Caddy’s for me. I refuse to pay ADM from them or finance at exorbitant rates or deal with the other lame sales tactics, plus I’ve heard horror stories about the service departments. Cool cars though!

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by lizardx

Long time lurker, but decided to chip in as I own Giulia QV.

Great insights into the QV! Thanks for sharing

[Prossx]

Agree with OP and totally biased. What other large manual coupe is there? I specifically got a G82 because I no longer needed 4 doors and didn’t want a sports car for my only car wanting to haul my MTB and other large ish items in the trunk, or add a sports car to the garage as I don’t have the time, space, or want to spend a bunch of money on another depreciating asset sitting around most of the time. So for me, and my “use case” (as we just love saying like a bunch of corporate dorks) the M4 is just incredible and I can’t think of a real competitor.

[yaymitch]

Maybe they should rename it M3 ‘No-Competition’ …lol😜

[xxyion]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

Man, I'm getting 15 mpg moping around town, but I don't even care. But we got 25 mpg on a 600 mile road trip. Not too bad. GT3 would see lower mileage. Not sure about the GT4.

I agree with your M3 v M4 thoughts. I ordered an M4, but I got the M3 instead for some of the reasons you mentioned.

I came from a GT4, not really by choice though. I had one of the rare lemon Porsche cars and so they bought it back. Decided to jump into something a bit more comfy and practical. Plus i wanted to see what 500+ hp felt like haha. I was averaging about 29mpg combined in the GT4. Granted i'm in SF Bay area so not very many opportunities to rip it, but i still filled up less.

But yeah i still am loving my M4 though. Bought it 3 weeks ago and its already got over 1000 miles on it. Bringing it in for its breakin service and then time to let er rip

[Jimjamz]

Often the ultimate enemy comes from much closer to home.

I expect next series M3 sedan will see its numbers fall significantly … to the M3 Touring.

Seriously having owned the F80 and now the G81, I can never see myself wanting to go back to a standard sedan.

As William Gibson said. “The future is already here, it’s just not very evenly distributed”.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by Jimjamz

Often the ultimate enemy comes from much closer to home.

I expect next series M3 sedan will see its numbers fall significantly … to the M3 Touring.

Seriously having owned the F80 and now the G81, I can never see myself wanting to go back to a standard sedan.

As William Gibson said. “The future is already here, it’s just not very evenly distributed”.

If BMW offered it here in the states, it would sell like crazy. And too bad it’s not offered in manual form.

[Jimjamz]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

If BMW offered it here in the states, it would sell like crazy. And too bad it’s not offered in manual form.

The touring xdrive is well suited to the ZF8. It’s cannibalizing SUV sales. The M3 is so high powered now I’d go elsewhere for my manual fix (M2 for instance).

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

Dealers and interior quality and brand trumped both Caddy’s for me. I refuse to pay ADM from them or finance at exorbitant rates or deal with the other lame sales tactics, plus I’ve heard horror stories about the service departments. Cool cars though!

Well, we're in a BMW M forum, so 99% of us chose BMW. But that doesn't mean that the Blackwings aren't formidable competition. Again, they got a LOT right when it comes to the drivetrain.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

Well, we're in a BMW M forum, so 99% of us chose BMW. But that doesn't mean that the Blackwings aren't formidable competition. Again, they got a LOT right when it comes to the drivetrain.

That V8 is amazing. I like the lighter manual M3 v the BHawk and the S58 v the V6 in the Bwing. I stand by my assessment of caddy dealers (and markups, games) and interiors and brand value of M v Caddy. CT4 Fun facts: Bwing is 3860 lbs and 1st gear hits 50 mph.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

Having driven both Blackwings, I believe they are indeed formidable competition to the G8X platform, especially when you're comparing the manual transmission models.

The ride quality is top-notch, yet both still handle really well.

And the BW5 sounds the bizness, stock.

Yes, many prefer the BMW interior, but for a high-performance weekend toy, a "better interior" matters less to many enthusiasts. The engine, suspension, transmission and exhaust note are all higher on the list, and the Blackwings got a lot right.

Agreed.

The better interior matters to me. I have gone to several Caddy dealers to look at Blackwings and I just can't bring myself to buy a GM product. Just so...no. Between the after sale support and the super cheap interior for the price, I can't get past it. Shame I can't get over my own hangups, I hear it's an amazing car.

[/ / / M3]

Originally Posted by Jimjamz

I expect next series M3 sedan will see its numbers fall significantly … to the M3 Touring.

Seriously having owned the F80 and now the G81, I can never see myself wanting to go back to a standard sedan.

Unless you need the extra practicality of the station wagon, I don't see why you'd pick one over the sedan. Heavier, poorer visibility, no carbon fibre roof. The sedan also looks better in my opinion.

[/ / / M3]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

If BMW offered it here in the states, it would sell like crazy.

I doubt it. The regular 3 series was available in wagon form for the E46 and F30 generations. It didn't sell well.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by / / / M3

I doubt it. The regular 3 series was available in wagon form for the E46 and F30 generations. It didn't sell well.

This is a little different….
But I do think it would cannibalize the X3M and X5M sales. Easier for BMW logistics to keep it in Europe.