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      09-24-2020, 02:58 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
The original weight of the F8X was grossly understated. It was for a bare bones zero option car which did not exist anywhere in the world. EU regulations have since changed to avoid this, so I don't believe the G8X in the real world will be much heavier than advertised.
Something major has definitely changed. When The G22 finally showed up on bmwusa.com the weight was on the lbs the same as the weight given months earlier in the world wide internet reveal.
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      09-24-2020, 03:13 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Jacky Treehorn View Post
Porsche 911 (992) weighs nearly 3700lbs. NSX weighs 3800lbs. C8 vette 3700lbs. It's a new game out there

Buyers want all the luxuries, bells, whistles, and comfort...all while turning out highly competitive Nurburgring times. They don't want a car that lacks comfort, noise insulation, highly sophisticated electronics, dampening, ect. GT cars.

They want a car that can do it all. Mature and full size all while being capable as hell. They stuff massively powerful engines in there.

Go get groceries, bomb the highway, take a road trip, hit the track without fatiguing you too much.

M2 (or the supra) takes the place of the previous gen M3 cars that has a bit more sports car nimble feel
What? Let’s keep it to facts vs made up weights please. A 992 is nowhere near 3700 lbs unless it’s a Targe GTS which is a heavy glass top vert with AWD and PDK.

A Carrera S is 33xx lbs
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-the-numbers/

A Carrera 4S is 34xx

Even the WIDE, AWD and super GT Turbo S is only 3600 lbs - all lighter than an M2 even though the M2 is smaller and only RWD.

Fact is, cars these days are heavy. They also changed the way cars are standardized when it comes to weight. They can no longer be the lightest possible configuration. Add in particulate filters, safety features, tech, and growing sizes and the weights are increasing all around.

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Originally Posted by gtr View Post
2020 Carrera S RWD Curb weight is 3395 lb which is the version more comparable to the G80. Are you using the targa top AWD version? We should compare apples to apples. 4 seater, RWD coupe or sedan.
Spot on.

Also, since the way they weigh cars have changed I really only thing the M3/4 are 200-250 lbs heavier and not 300-350 lb.

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      09-24-2020, 05:18 PM   #47
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i'm just glad they kept the manual transmission with everyone going auto with paddles.

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      09-24-2020, 06:46 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by HeelToeShift View Post
What? Let’s keep it to facts vs made up weights please. A 992 is nowhere near 3700 lbs unless it’s a Targe GTS which is a heavy glass top vert with AWD and PDK.

A Carrera S is 33xx lbs
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-the-numbers/

A Carrera 4S is 34xx

Even the WIDE, AWD and super GT Turbo S is only 3600 lbs - all lighter than an M2 even though the M2 is smaller and only RWD.

Fact is, cars these days are heavy. They also changed the way cars are standardized when it comes to weight. They can no longer be the lightest possible configuration. Add in particulate filters, safety features, tech, and growing sizes and the weights are increasing all around.



Spot on.

Also, since the way they weigh cars have changed I really only thing the M3/4 are 200-250 lbs heavier and not 300-350 lb.
I edited my post. 992 weighs 3300-3800ish lbs. I don't think we are in any kind of disagreement. These cars are heavy, was just trying to make a point that everything has gotten fat
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      09-24-2020, 06:53 PM   #49
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It makes sense though, appeal to the LCD for sales. I just wish BMW had more guts than that.
I think the fundamental problem with this car is it doesn't move the game forward, quite the opposite in fact.

M3's have always brought something unique in that generation. The S54 in the E46 which had the highest BHP per litre of any production car at the time. The S65 high revving motorsport derived naturally aspirated V8 in the e9x with a carbon roof and Getrag DCT gearbox. The F80 with CFRP drive shaft, carbon strut brace, solidly mounted rear subframe, fantastic electronic M differential, and a still reasonably high revving twin turbo straight six with the potential for prodigious power. It also had hugle improved reliability. People maligned its lack of soul but there was no doubt it was a performer. However it started the slide..

What does the G80 bring? An extra 300lbs, 4WD (lol), an 8 speed automatic, a choked 7.2K RPM redline, single piston rear calipers(?!!??). The carbon seats are nice, and as someone who likes to track the ability to run harnesses is a big deal. Ten stage traction control sounds great until you realize most people who track turn it all off anyway. The tech is a big step forward, I really like the digital dash and infotainment in my G20. But that isnt unique to the M3. At this point what differentiates it from an Audi? At least with Mercedes you can get a V8. They threw enthusiasts a bone in the US with the manual, but it will be the same manual from the F8X cars. There is zero chance they spent any development cash on improving it.

Ultimately they will sell plenty of units and it will be a sales success. But at what cost? It's very clear there is no one left at BMW who understands what made the brand great in the first place.
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      09-24-2020, 07:01 PM   #50
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c8zo6 > m4


maybe even base c8 > m4 LOL
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      09-24-2020, 07:20 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by TrevorM3 View Post
c8zo6 > m4


maybe even base c8 > m4 LOL
I actually don't think the C8 will come close once you factor in boost, its a better chassis and hard to beat value, but i'd venture to say M4C AWD is faster in a straight line than a C8 base with a fuel change and bm3.

Z06 and other models change it up for sure.

I do think there is enough delineation in one being a 2 seater RWD purist car, likely taking Porsche market share and the other being a potential 5 seater AWD do it all car to haul your kids to school in snow.
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      09-24-2020, 08:16 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
It makes sense though, appeal to the LCD for sales. I just wish BMW had more guts than that.
I think the fundamental problem with this car is it doesn't move the game forward, quite the opposite in fact.

M3's have always brought something unique in that generation. The S54 in the E46 which had the highest BHP per litre of any production car at the time. The S65 high revving motorsport derived naturally aspirated V8 in the e9x with a carbon roof and Getrag DCT gearbox. The F80 with CFRP drive shaft, carbon strut brace, solidly mounted rear subframe, fantastic electronic M differential, and a still reasonably high revving twin turbo straight six with the potential for prodigious power. It also had hugle improved reliability. People maligned its lack of soul but there was no doubt it was a performer. However it started the slide..

What does the G80 bring? An extra 300lbs, 4WD (lol), an 8 speed automatic, a choked 7.2K RPM redline, single piston rear calipers(?!!??). The carbon seats are nice, and as someone who likes to track the ability to run harnesses is a big deal. Ten stage traction control sounds great until you realize most people who track turn it all off anyway. The tech is a big step forward, I really like the digital dash and infotainment in my G20. But that isnt unique to the M3. At this point what differentiates it from an Audi? At least with Mercedes you can get a V8. They threw enthusiasts a bone in the US with the manual, but it will be the same manual from the F8X cars. There is zero chance they spent any development cash on improving it.

Ultimately they will sell plenty of units and it will be a sales success. But at what cost? It's very clear there is no one left at BMW who understands what made the brand great in the first place.
Exactly. I don't care about traction control. I track with it off. The seats are a plus, it just seems for me a trade off, not an overall step forward. I could be wrong though. So far I don't see how.
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      09-24-2020, 09:09 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
The S54 in the E46 which had the highest BHP per litre of any production car at the time.
Wrong. It can't even make that claim along the NA front.

Cmon friends. Don't be lazy. Get your facts straight pls before posting.
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      09-25-2020, 01:36 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by THEROK View Post
Wrong. It can't even make that claim along the NA front.

Cmon friends. Don't be lazy. Get your facts straight pls before posting.
Maybe he was thinking of the e36

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      09-25-2020, 02:19 AM   #55
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I am skeptical about the weight but won't make any conclusions until I have driven it. I like both the exterior and interior. People should wait until they drive this.
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      09-25-2020, 06:19 AM   #56
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I remember when the F30 launched people kept complaining about how the bmw solid feel is no longer there, it feels cheap, hollow blah blah blah.

So people complained about the weight, bmw complies and it has to give somewhere, it's not an exotic. Outcome, people still complain.

I truly believe that we as enthusiast need to be careful what we ask for. I'll take extra weight to gain the luxury aspect, safety and solid feel it brings back in. These are street cars first and foremost. We enthusiasts make up a tiny tiny bit of their bottom line. Want a light weight track car? Plenty of other options out there.

My C63S Coupe feels like it's made out of a solid piece of steel, feels incredible. It weighs over 4k lbs but it's still faster than M4 comp on multiple tracks.
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      09-25-2020, 06:20 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THEROK View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
The S54 in the E46 which had the highest BHP per litre of any production car at the time.
Wrong. It can't even make that claim along the NA front.

Cmon friends. Don't be lazy. Get your facts straight pls before posting.
Wasn't it the Honda S2000?
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      09-25-2020, 09:59 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
Part of the issue is the G20 3 series is a massive car to begin with, it's basically the size of an E39 5 series.

Where BMW have gotten it wrong is building a 'mini' M5 with AWD and 8AT to play the numbers game and please the stoplight racers. They should be pushing what made BMW great in the first place, not bringing them closer to Audi and everyone else. Throw in the crippled manual and accompanying engine tune, with engineers who actively looked to dial out steering feel for good measure. If your going to be stuck with a 7.2K RPM redline at least make it a V8, at this point it feels so far away from the original ethos of an M car. There's an interview out there with the current head of design from a year or so ago, and his disdain for traditional BMW is pretty clear. A nice set of carbon bucket seats doesn't disguise that the direction set at the top of BMW has been heading in the wrong direction for a long time. Just ask Albert Biermann..
Pretty much this. I was expecting at least one area where the engineers would take time to improve but it's obvious they were lazy with the G8X. It's no longer about performance and heritage now, it's all about "look at me".
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      09-25-2020, 10:01 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by bm4w View Post
Pretty much this. I was expecting at least one area where the engineers would take time to improve but it's obvious they were lazy with the G8X. It's no longer about performance and heritage now, it's all about "look at me".
bullshit clearly you haven't looked at the S58 sticky'd technical document or looked at the power to weight?

Last edited by Avaley; 09-25-2020 at 11:03 AM..
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      09-25-2020, 01:30 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bm4w View Post
Pretty much this. I was expecting at least one area where the engineers would take time to improve but it's obvious they were lazy with the G8X. It's no longer about performance and heritage now, it's all about "look at me".
Agreed. However it seems to be across all manufacturers to reflect our current society in general (Only exception GMA T.50).
Today, it's not about what's hidden/reserved beneath, it's all about how much you can show off.

They say to never judge a book by it's cover, but what happens when the book has a shiny new cover but nothing worth reading once you open it up?

The question is which of you would be above this trend and rather have a book that looks good but not flashy on the cover then discover troves of great literature inside?
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      09-25-2020, 01:36 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elitex View Post
I remember when the F30 launched people kept complaining about how the bmw solid feel is no longer there, it feels cheap, hollow blah blah blah.

So people complained about the weight, bmw complies and it has to give somewhere, it's not an exotic. Outcome, people still complain.

I truly believe that we as enthusiast need to be careful what we ask for. I'll take extra weight to gain the luxury aspect, safety and solid feel it brings back in. These are street cars first and foremost. We enthusiasts make up a tiny tiny bit of their bottom line. Want a light weight track car? Plenty of other options out there.

My C63S Coupe feels like it's made out of a solid piece of steel, feels incredible. It weighs over 4k lbs but it's still faster than M4 comp on multiple tracks.
Aside from groans about the slightly cheapened interior relative to the E90, 95% of the complaints about the F30 were in regard to how shitty it drove relative to 3-series of the past. Weight wasn't a complaint at all.

On a side note, the C63 definitely feels substantial. I don't find it nimble due to its weight, but it's a helluva muscle car.
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      09-25-2020, 01:38 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
I think the fundamental problem with this car is it doesn't move the game forward, quite the opposite in fact.

M3's have always brought something unique in that generation. The S54 in the E46 which had the highest BHP per litre of any production car at the time. The S65 high revving motorsport derived naturally aspirated V8 in the e9x with a carbon roof and Getrag DCT gearbox. The F80 with CFRP drive shaft, carbon strut brace, solidly mounted rear subframe, fantastic electronic M differential, and a still reasonably high revving twin turbo straight six with the potential for prodigious power. It also had hugle improved reliability. People maligned its lack of soul but there was no doubt it was a performer. However it started the slide..

What does the G80 bring? An extra 300lbs, 4WD (lol), an 8 speed automatic, a choked 7.2K RPM redline, single piston rear calipers(?!!??). The carbon seats are nice, and as someone who likes to track the ability to run harnesses is a big deal. Ten stage traction control sounds great until you realize most people who track turn it all off anyway. The tech is a big step forward, I really like the digital dash and infotainment in my G20. But that isnt unique to the M3. At this point what differentiates it from an Audi? At least with Mercedes you can get a V8. They threw enthusiasts a bone in the US with the manual, but it will be the same manual from the F8X cars. There is zero chance they spent any development cash on improving it.

Ultimately they will sell plenty of units and it will be a sales success. But at what cost? It's very clear there is no one left at BMW who understands what made the brand great in the first place.
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      09-25-2020, 02:26 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by elitex View Post
I remember when the F30 launched people kept complaining about how the bmw solid feel is no longer there, it feels cheap, hollow blah blah blah.

So people complained about the weight, bmw complies and it has to give somewhere, it's not an exotic. Outcome, people still complain.

I truly believe that we as enthusiast need to be careful what we ask for. I'll take extra weight to gain the luxury aspect, safety and solid feel it brings back in. These are street cars first and foremost. We enthusiasts make up a tiny tiny bit of their bottom line. Want a light weight track car? Plenty of other options out there.

My C63S Coupe feels like it's made out of a solid piece of steel, feels incredible. It weighs over 4k lbs but it's still faster than M4 comp on multiple tracks.
Aside from groans about the slightly cheapened interior relative to the E90, 95% of the complaints about the F30 were in regard to how shitty it drove relative to 3-series of the past. Weight wasn't a complaint at all.

On a side note, the C63 definitely feels substantial. I don't find it nimble due to its weight, but it's a helluva muscle car.
People definitely complained about doors feeling cheap and thin, too much road noise etc.

C63 doesn't feel nimble like a Giulia does. I actually like it better than my F82 M4, even on the mountains. Reminds me of my E92 M3.
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      09-25-2020, 02:29 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
I think the fundamental problem with this car is it doesn't move the game forward, quite the opposite in fact.

M3's have always brought something unique in that generation. The S54 in the E46 which had the highest BHP per litre of any production car at the time. The S65 high revving motorsport derived naturally aspirated V8 in the e9x with a carbon roof and Getrag DCT gearbox. The F80 with CFRP drive shaft, carbon strut brace, solidly mounted rear subframe, fantastic electronic M differential, and a still reasonably high revving twin turbo straight six with the potential for prodigious power. It also had hugle improved reliability. People maligned its lack of soul but there was no doubt it was a performer. However it started the slide..

What does the G80 bring? An extra 300lbs, 4WD (lol), an 8 speed automatic, a choked 7.2K RPM redline, single piston rear calipers(?!!??). The carbon seats are nice, and as someone who likes to track the ability to run harnesses is a big deal. Ten stage traction control sounds great until you realize most people who track turn it all off anyway. The tech is a big step forward, I really like the digital dash and infotainment in my G20. But that isnt unique to the M3. At this point what differentiates it from an Audi? At least with Mercedes you can get a V8. They threw enthusiasts a bone in the US with the manual, but it will be the same manual from the F8X cars. There is zero chance they spent any development cash on improving it.

Ultimately they will sell plenty of units and it will be a sales success. But at what cost? It's very clear there is no one left at BMW who understands what made the brand great in the first place.
So Bmw won't be selling any ICE engines in 15 years? Maybe this is just cheaper rather than developing technologies you cannot utilize for more than a decade or so.

It's inevitable. The bitching that will ensue when all electric M3 launches. Good Lord.....
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      09-25-2020, 02:37 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mingwan View Post
They said, “get the most power possible, and find a way to bring that onto the road. The lighter the car, the easier it will be.“

Also BMW: (makes car heavier....)
So, BMW stands for Bring More Weight now?
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      09-25-2020, 03:58 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by elitex View Post
So Bmw won't be selling any ICE engines in 15 years? Maybe this is just cheaper rather than developing technologies you cannot utilize for more than a decade or so.

It's inevitable. The bitching that will ensue when all electric M3 launches. Good Lord.....
If think you haven't read his post right. The concern some of us have is that this generation not only offers no step forward, it actually makes a few steps backwards. If an all electric ///M moves the game forward, I am all in.
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