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      08-21-2020, 08:47 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemetier View Post
B58: 82x94.6
S58: 84x90
B57: 84x90

There's a few other members of the family out there concealed behind disclosure agreements.

But which would you prefer, 480ps 6MT or 600ps 8PR?
Ohhh, I didn't even consider that the B58 was different. Hmm, is the S58 sharing more in common with the B57 due to the increase in torque and power needing more strength?

I think I'm more nervous about the steering over the trans actually. I've driven the M8 and while the gearbox wasn't as good as the M-DCT I was ok with it however I really disliked the steering and that was a bigger problem for me than the gearbox.

But this might be my last chance to buy a 6MT car so....
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      08-21-2020, 08:48 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by xlover View Post
So is the S58 based more on the diesel b57 than gasoline B58? I saw you reference that above around the electric turbo concept... and following your posts I doubt that was an accidental typo....
Unless it is a sequential setup like the 40d and 50d engine rather than electric?
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      08-21-2020, 09:00 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
That's interesting. Unfortunately, I'm not familiar enough with how this has been implemented in the past to know how big a change that is nor to understand why it's better. But it sounds like (as one would naturally assume) that in the previous implementation, there was simply a touch sensor (or microswitch) that signaled the shifter had entered the neutral part of the gate, and then some time after that was tripped it would register "N". I suppose there are other features (AEB) that indirectly led to this change?
To use the phraseology from the ZF Information, what is being demonstrated is the Engaging Assistant, a.k.a. Money Shift Eliminator. It's been in the works since 2012. Overspeed Protection and ABS Support also make a few brief appearances.
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      08-21-2020, 09:29 PM   #70
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Smart Clutch:
https://www.springerprofessional.de/...etrieb/6588260

Quote:
System from ZF enables sailing with manual gearboxes

ZF has developed an electromechanical actuator system that can control clutch activity independently of the driver's left foot and a mechanical connection to the pedal. The so-called clutch-by-wire technology is also intended to enable the sailing function for manual transmissions.

The clutch actuation in the developed clutch-by-wire (CBW) technology is controlled electronically and by an integrated electric motor. According to ZF, consumption and consequently CO2 emissions should decrease by up to 10 percent. "This value results solely from the automatic decoupling and switching off of the engine in suitable driving situations, in short the sailing function. Thanks to our clutch-by-wire system, vehicle manufacturers can implement this for the first time with manual transmissions," says Jörg Buhl, Head of Design, Actuating Systems at ZF.

Comfort and safety advantages of the electromechanical solution
As the supplier's engineers report, the option of being able to regulate the clutch using the control unit and actuator alone also gives rise to numerous new comfort and safety benefits for manual transmissions. On the one hand, this includes the start-up function even when the clutch pedal is not pressed. But also a stall protection is part of it, which - for example, if the driver is released too quickly or during emergency braking - opens the clutch completely or partially before the engine speed falls below a critical level. In addition, there is the creep function, in which controlled slippage makes maneuvering and driving in traffic jams easier.

The characteristics of the pedal meanwhile, since it is independent of the drive train, can be designed almost unlimitedly in a model-specific manner: for example, so that it should be easy to pedal despite the generally sporty characteristics. The system developers explain that the actuation speeds and distances recorded by a sensor are converted by electronics and mechanics into the clutch behavior required by the driver. Once the pedal feedback has been defined, it remains the same over the entire service life of the vehicle. It does not change with clutch wear, which the new CBW actuator from ZF is supposed to automatically compensate. The driving operation remains as usual and the series transmissions used so far should be able to be retained unchanged.

Control according to functional requirements
The CBW actuator has a brushless DC motor that actuates the clutch instead of a cable or hydraulics, explain the transmission specialists from Friedrichshafen. In addition, there is the integrated ZF control electronics (Clutch Control Unit), which should control the system depending on the pedal parameters and the respective functional requirements. With the CBW actuator, the engineers have also succeeded in combining a high degree of efficiency with low power consumption and combining the system components in a construction that is optimized for installation space. As a result, the system can be integrated comparatively easily and cost-effectively into almost all common drive concepts with manual switches.
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      08-21-2020, 09:51 PM   #71
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Glad to know I'm not alone wishing for the S58 to get the 48V.

I remember there was a magazine interview on the G87 where the "source" leaks that it will happen at some point of its life circle.

It makes sense to me, as BMW is trying hard to pave way for the electrification rollout, the S58 would be a unicorn or wierdo, keeping purely traditionally internal-combusted for the next 7 years. And more importantly, the ZF 48V (gen2, integrated into the gearbox), will hit the market and be used by almost everyone in 5 years - maybe in first 2-3 years by only the top tier makers (Mercedes and BMW).

If you look back, 8 years ago, when BMW rolled out the FI, it was so aggressive that we felt like NA was ditched completely overnight.

48V isn't going to add much weight as is. And as the development progresses, it will save weight, because more 48V electronics means more smaller thinner 48V cables replacing heavy thick 12V cable.

The S58 is a very laggy engine in the X3MC form. Desperately in need for a fix.
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      08-21-2020, 09:51 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Damn who are you!? BMW's Jarvis? The range and depth of knowledge is astonishing. Can't thank you enough for being here
I think I read the room right haha.

This is

Permanentmagnetic Linear Contactless Displacement Sensor via SENT. The SENT signal was specified by American automobile manufacturers. It is characterised by its simplicity and works on an unshielded three-wire connection which also transmits the supply voltage to the sensors. The transmission via a SENT signal is digital and relatively uncritical against fault signals. That is because the information content is located in the falling signal edge only, whereas the time between two falling pulse edges contains the information of the nibbles. The value transmitted by a nibble is proportional to the duration between two falling pulse edges.
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      08-22-2020, 04:16 AM   #73
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Does anyone know if the new Hyundai i30 has the clutch by wire system already? It is advertised with the iMT transmission, which is the name of the new system, but maybe the old manual was also called iMT, not so sure.

If the new i30 indeed has the clutch by wire system, I already drove it and I can assure you it feels just like a normal clutch, I din't notice anything different. My shifts felt quite smooth though, considering the last time I drove a manual was quite a while ago. Maybe that's the reason why. If the new i30 I drove had the clutch by wire system and BMW's solution is similar, there is nothing to worry about (thank god).

Regarding the 48V system, I thought Flasch said in an interview that they don't believe the 48V improves the driving pleasure so I guess you could conclude they will not have 48V. Currently searching for that interview to back it up, but I watched a lot of videos about the G8X. Also, Fröhlich said they initially wanted to skip the first generation of mild hybrids and start with the second generation which offers over 30PS of extra power. They thought the first generation with the measly 11PS doesn't offer enough benefits. I think they were forced to go with the first generation anyway because of the strict EU emissions regulations.
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      08-22-2020, 09:33 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemetier View Post
To use the phraseology from the ZF Information, what is being demonstrated is the Engaging Assistant, a.k.a. Money Shift Eliminator. It's been in the works since 2012. Overspeed Protection and ABS Support also make a few brief appearances.
Ok, so that’s a different animal from an electronic clutch because now you have to have some type of mechanism to prevent the shifter from moving into a specific gate. Edit: actually, thinking more about it, as long as the clutch can be held open by the TCU even if you remove your foot from the pedal, that wouldn’t be necessary.

All of this is cool tech. I remember having theoretical discussions about electronically assisted manual transmissions back around 2007 before the launch of E9x M3. It’s neat that some of it is actually coming to market, although I can’t help but wonder if they could have greatly increased the lifespan of the MT if it had all come a decade sooner.

And good call on spotting this, JTO24 and whoever else called it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWGirlFL View Post
Smart Clutch
That’s a good read, thanks. I’m still not convinced the G8x will completely break the physical link between the pedal and the clutch, but it sounds like it will at least have some type of electric clutch actuation (which as I say, would still be big news).

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
It makes sense to me, as BMW is trying hard to pave way for the electrification rollout, the S58 would be a unicorn or wierdo, keeping purely traditionally internal-combusted for the next 7 years.
Well, it wouldn’t be the first time an M engine forwent new technology that was rolled out to the rest of the lineup. However, I agree that it’s unlikely to last through to G87 EOP (approximately eight years from now) without getting 48V.
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      08-22-2020, 10:55 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemetier View Post
Magna 6MTI550 (shown in the image you linked).
Name:  6MTI550_Manual_Inline_Transmission (1).jpg
Views: 577
Size:  99.6 KB
https://www.getrag-ford.com/files/th...ansmission.pdf

Think same MT as new Ford Bronco.
GM electric clutch system patent:
https://pdfaiw.uspto.gov/.aiw?PageNu...id=20180252274

Smart MT explained by KIA:
https://press.kia.com/eu/en/home/med...nsmission.html

Lots of cool new tech to be explained by BMW.

Last edited by BMWGirlFL; 08-22-2020 at 11:08 AM..
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      08-22-2020, 11:53 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flamingi View Post
Also, Fröhlich said they initially wanted to skip the first generation of mild hybrids and start with the second generation which offers over 30PS of extra power. They thought the first generation with the measly 11PS doesn't offer enough benefits. I think they were forced to go with the first generation anyway because of the strict EU emissions regulations.
I think you might have just outlined why it’s not there from launch in the G8X but will likely appear in a later MY. Good memory
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      08-22-2020, 01:25 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Ok, so that’s a different animal from an electronic clutch because now you have to have some type of mechanism to prevent the shifter from moving into a specific gate. Edit: actually, thinking more about it, as long as the clutch can be held open by the TCU even if you remove your foot from the pedal, that wouldn’t be necessary.
A gate blocker would be terrible since it had to be in the target gate which is the earliest the system will know what gear the driver is shifting to. That would be like sticking an iron bar in between your spokes to emergency brake. To absorb the energy and momentum instantly would soon break something including the driver’s wrist.
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      08-22-2020, 02:55 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
A gate blocker would be terrible since it had to be in the target gate which is the earliest the system will know what gear the driver is shifting to. That would be like sticking an iron bar in between your spokes to emergency brake. To absorb the energy and momentum instantly would soon break something including the driver’s wrist.
I can see where this is going... next you'll need 'shift-by-wire' so that the car can decide whether to accept your gear selection.

...and then you've basically got a DCT gearbox with an H-pattern selector rather than 2 paddles.

But seriously, as a driver who learned on a manual, I would actually prefer to have 'clutch-by-wire' and a 3rd pedal on DCT for reversing maneuvers and hill-starts.
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      08-22-2020, 03:00 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbar View Post
I can see where this is going... next you'll need 'shift-by-wire' so that the car can decide whether to accept your gear selection.

...and then you've basically got a DCT gearbox with an H-pattern selector rather than 2 paddles.
Nah, you’ll still have the 3rd pedal so still a massive difference in operation and flexibility when and how to use the clutch between MT and DCT even if you move to shift by wire.

These new features is more like DSC, there to protect your life and car from your mistakes or the human limitations in reaction times. The way you operate will not change much.

Last edited by solstice; 08-22-2020 at 03:13 PM..
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      08-22-2020, 06:33 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
The S58 is a very laggy engine in the X3MC form. Desperately in need for a fix.
The S58 is the best turbo M engine they have produced, clearly you haven't driven it, it fabulous and really strong, fantastic response makes the S55 feel breathless at high rpm (which it was and still is)

100% max torque at 2600rpm does not a laggy engine make...
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      08-22-2020, 06:41 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xlover View Post
So is the S58 based more on the diesel b57 than gasoline B58? I saw you reference that above around the electric turbo concept... and following your posts I doubt that was an accidental typo....
They're part of a modular "family" but the B58 wasn't designed for split charging, where as the B57 was. The S58 is based on the B57 variant but that's somewhat of a loose blanket statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brad850csi View Post
Unless it is a sequential setup like the 40d and 50d engine rather than electric?
Or all three.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
Glad to know I'm not alone wishing for the S58 to get the 48V.

I remember there was a magazine interview on the G87 where the "source" leaks that it will happen at some point of its life circle.

It makes sense to me, as BMW is trying hard to pave way for the electrification rollout, the S58 would be a unicorn or wierdo, keeping purely traditionally internal-combusted for the next 7 years. And more importantly, the ZF 48V (gen2, integrated into the gearbox), will hit the market and be used by almost everyone in 5 years - maybe in first 2-3 years by only the top tier makers (Mercedes and BMW).

If you look back, 8 years ago, when BMW rolled out the FI, it was so aggressive that we felt like NA was ditched completely overnight.

48V isn't going to add much weight as is. And as the development progresses, it will save weight, because more 48V electronics means more smaller thinner 48V cables replacing heavy thick 12V cable.

The S58 is a very laggy engine in the X3MC form. Desperately in need for a fix.
The S58 in the G8x is the 3rd variant (X3/4M Typ 1, Alpina Typ 2). It doesn't have the same characteristics as the other two. Additional variants will follow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seis-speed View Post
OK, watched the video again.

The 'N'uetral graphic - seemingly comes up anytime the clutch was pressed, even one time where the driver only touched the pedal and then did not shift, so it was partial engagement of the clutch. There is computer interaction to the clutch, which means the clutch/gear could be overridden by the onboard tech to not over-rev an engine.

Seemingly that would not affect the enjoyment of the car as rev-matching had to be a computer connection to the clutch and rpm of the engine simultaneously, so it is just expanding the software adjustment for engine protection when rev-matching is off....possibly rev-matching only when necessary (even when it is turned off) or cutting rpms to protect the engine on an overly aggressive downshift.

Am I on the right track?
The gear display only shows, well, the active gear. An uncoupled clutch with the gear selector in 2 isn't in neutral. It's in 2nd. Gear selector in neutral displays N. Engagement Assist is for acceleration, overspeed protection is for deceleration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post

Ok, so that's a different animal from an electronic clutch because now you have to have some type of mechanism to prevent the shifter from moving into a specific gate. Edit: actually, thinking more about it, as long as the clutch can be held open by the TCU even if you remove your foot from the pedal, that wouldn't be necessary.

All of this is cool tech. I remember having theoretical discussions about electronically assisted manual transmissions back around 2007 before the launch of E9x M3. It's neat that some of it is actually coming to market, although I can't help but wonder if they could have greatly increased the lifespan of the MT if it had all come a decade sooner.

And good call on spotting this, JTO24 and whoever else called it.

I'm still not convinced the G8x will completely break the physical link between the pedal and the clutch, but it sounds like it will at least have some type of electric clutch actuation (which as I say, would still be big news).
It's not a method of limiting the gear lever. That's been used to an extent in different variations and is completely the wrong approach. Toss out the half-assed measures and return to a tight precise lever actuation. On the pedal side, why not? Why has it taken this long to actually implement it? On a modern synchronized MT, clutch pedal modulation is rarely used for more than start off. >90% of pedal operation is in an on-off manner. Replacing the the clutch master cylinder with a variable resistance servo and utilizing an electro-hydraulic or electro-mechanical clutch actuator not only allows for a perfect pedal feel, but different feel modes/characteristics.
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      08-22-2020, 06:58 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemetier View Post
They're part of a modular "family" but the B58 wasn't designed for split charging, where as the B57 was. The S58 is based on the B57 variant but that's somewhat of a loose blanket statement.



Or all three.



The S58 in the G8x is the 3rd variant (X3/4M Typ 1, Alpina Typ 2). It doesn't have the same characteristics as the other two. Additional variants will follow.



The gear display only shows, well, the active gear. An uncoupled clutch with the gear selector in 2 isn't in neutral. It's in 2nd. Gear selector in neutral displays N. Engagement Assist is for acceleration, overspeed protection is for deceleration.



It's not a method of limiting the gear lever. That's been used to an extent in different variations and is completely the wrong approach. Toss out the half-asses measures and return to a tight precise lever actuation. On the pedal side, why not? Why has it taken this long to actually implement it? On a modern synchronized MT, clutch pedal modulation is rarely used for more than start off. >90% of pedal operation is in an on-off manner. Replacing the the clutch master cylinder with a variable resistance servo and utilizing an electro-hydraulic or electro-mechanical clutch actuator not only allows for a perfect pedal feel, but different feel modes/characteristics.
So will clutch pedal feel now be adjustable through the M buttons like the brakes?
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      08-22-2020, 07:03 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemetier View Post
The S58 in the G8x is the 3rd variant (X3/4M Typ 1, Alpina Typ 2). It doesn't have the same characteristics as the other two. Additional variants will follow.
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      08-22-2020, 10:56 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by JTO24 View Post
So will clutch pedal feel now be adjustable through the M buttons like the brakes?
Cause for austerity now with an example of why it's necessary.

When F90 Powertrain was announced, one recurring theme was creep (Low Speed Assistance). I swore up and down it had creep on demand. F85/6 did not have Auto Creep to maintain operational characteristics of DCT. F90 prototypes and pre-retail units did not Auto Creep.

Fast Forward...

F90 retail units arrive, operator's manual gives instructions on how Low Speed Assistance works and how to activate it.

I have yet to find a single production F90 that doesn't have Auto Creep nor a way to deactivate it.
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      08-22-2020, 11:01 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by lemetier View Post
Cause for austerity now with an example of why it's necessary.

When F90 Powertrain was announced, one recurring theme was creep (Low Speed Assistance). I swore up and down it had creep on demand. F85/6 did not have Auto Creep to maintain operational characteristics of DCT. F90 prototypes and pre-retail units did not Auto Creep.

Fast Forward...

F90 retail units arrive, operator's manual gives instructions on how Low Speed Assistance works and how to activate it.

I have yet to find a single production F90 that doesn't have Auto Creep nor a way to deactivate it.
My E90 with DCT had auto creep. Tap the throttle and off you go....slowly, touch the brakes and off it went. It couldn’t be turned off though to no longer activate by throttle tap.
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      08-22-2020, 11:07 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
My E90 with DCT had auto creep. Tap the throttle and off you go....slowly, touch the brakes and off it went. It couldn't be turned off though to no longer activate by throttle tap.
Auto creep is activation upon brake release. Creep on demand is with throttle tip in on, brake deactivates.
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      08-22-2020, 11:11 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by lemetier View Post
Auto creep is activation upon brake release. Creep on demand is with throttle tip in on, brake deactivates.
Ah, yes that makes sense sensei
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      08-25-2020, 04:04 PM   #88
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*Cough*


Spied BMW mid-engine Frankenstein prototype previews some upcoming new model https://www.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1751470
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