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      09-27-2020, 07:48 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by E46toF30 View Post
I am a die-hard manual enthusiast. My previous F30 335i and current 340i were/is manual. My next car likely G80 M3 will also be manual. I was stoked to hear BMW was keeping the manual 4 door ///M cars alive after they got rid of it in the non ///M.

I'm actually not concerned about the HP figure, it's the 406 lb/ft of torque which is the same as last gen and 73 lb/ft less than comp. When they made the new car roughly 300lbs heavier the "torquiness" will def feel less. However, they state it's 50lbs lighter than auto and has better weight distribution so that's a win.

At this point beggars can't be choosers as BMW is the only manufacturer to offer a 4 door high powered luxury sports sedan in a manual. I for one, am grateful for that. As others have said, it's not about being the most powerful but the driving experience.

#savethemanuals
Save the manuals!

I’ll tune this car so fast because it will feel sluggish compared to my old 6MT F80 given the weight. I’m also psyched that the X3M and X4M S58 tunes are performing nicely. Seeing 600 hp for a stage 1 tune! Just hope the f***ing clutch can hold it.
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      09-27-2020, 07:59 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by brianeck View Post
Am I missing something, or has BMW very craftilly dealt the final blow to the manual that they've inevitably wanted to for some time?

For years we have heard about how the marketing and sales projections point to low use of manuals before they are actually ever sold, meaning that cars shouldn't ever be offered in this format in the first place.

Now we have an enthusiasts car, where things like performance, peak power, and acceleration really do matter. We have a platform from the F80 year where people openly said they would take a DCT over a 6MT because it was 2/10ths faster in the quarter mile. .

From here, with the G80 model lineup, BMW decides to launch the 6MT m3 once again, but only with significantly less power than the competition model, and not in the AWD variant.

It's inconceivable to think that 6MT sales won't be affected by people who want the fastest, most powerful version of the car, or people like me who need a daily that can comfortably handle rough winter commutes (currently in a b8.5 s4 6mt).

I don't see any reason for launching a manual version of this car in a crippled, less exciting format other than to forcibly generate market data that fraudulently shows that people prefer the automatic transmission due to take rates. In my humble opinion, this car is the culmination of everything the auto industry has been pushing the market towards for the last 10 years. . . .

When you launch a dumbed down version of an "enthusiasts" car for the enthusiasts, you all but force them to take the car you prefer that they buy in the first place.

It's like a shitty transparent psychological experiment.

Now inevitably the aftermarket will help with leveling the playing field on the crippled output of the 6mt. . . . While that may be enough for me, I do not think it will be enough for most potential 6mt buyers. I also really want an M-AWD car! There are effectively no performance oriented awd manual 4wd cars offered anymore. Every time a used b8.5 5mt goes on the market it sells within a day, so I have a really hard time believing that nobody else wants this type of vehicle.

With the above stated - I haven't read enough yet to understand how exactly the competition delivers it's additional power. . . If it's just a tune or something then so be it. If it's more, then the 6mt is still considerably more hindered for after market modding as well.

From what I can tell, this competition package is absurdly cheap. . . <$3000. That's less than the delta to get a DCT car in the F80 variant. It's a no brainer for all but the most loyal diehard 6mt club, who live in a winter less region or who can afford a winter beater/daily or a garage queen.

Am I missing something, or has BMW really stabbed the 6MT in the back with a poisoned dagger right in front of our eyes while pretending to cater to our desires?
Spot on OP. Said the same on the M2 board and I was nearly run off. BMW crippled it with a sub-par platform but will then claim the take rate is so low they can’t justify it making them any longer. I sound like a spokesperson for the White House 🤭
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      09-27-2020, 09:14 PM   #25
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I was very surprised when bmw didnt offer the current Z4 in a manual. To me that car needs it as an option even more than an M3/M4 because I see it as a second "summer" car. It must be that the number of people that are able to drive stick and in these markets is shrinking. Also the average person seems more concerned with remote starters than stick shift - and no mfg can solve remote start on MT. So I am somewhat surprised that this M3/M4 keeps it, and I wont be surprised at all if next gen is without it.
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      09-27-2020, 11:09 PM   #26
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you want a manual M3,, u got a manual M3,, in the purest form imo.
AWD is not for the purists!
473 hp & 406 lb-ft is A LOT
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      09-27-2020, 11:28 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vampire81 View Post
you want a manual M3,, u got a manual M3,, in the purest form imo.
AWD is not for the purists!
473 hp & 406 lb-ft is A LOT
If this is your first m3, it's great. Coming from f80 comp, it doesn't make the decision to get the new one easy. I want it based on looks, but I also.want it to perform better than my f80, and the numbers don't look like it does, acceleration wise.
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      09-28-2020, 02:37 AM   #28
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I don't think 6MT sales will be affected all that much. 6MTs have been slower than DCTs and automatics for a long time now (basically since the E9x Ms). To have yet another generation where the 6MT is slower than the automatic M is not a huge deterrent to those who prefer a 6MT. Besides, the last gen was already plenty fast and the G8x is even faster - even the reduced power 6MT version will feel extremely fast.

To complicate matters, the fact that BMW got rid of the DCT may actually cause some enthusiasts to go back to the 6MT even with the reduced power. Personally, I'm a 6MT guy all the way. However, I had decided that I would just keep my F80 6MT to have the fun of shifting manually and get a G82 M4 in DCT as my next car... until I heard they were going to be slushbox automatics. I despise torque converter automatics so now I'm rethinking this and may go with a G80 6MT M3.

I don't really care much that the 6MT will have less power. It is just a tune away from having more power than the comp pack cars. I know people are saying the new Bosch ECUs are uncrackable. I'm sure it will be cracked in the next 2-3 yrs when I'm ready for my G80 M3. In the meantime, I just got my crankhub fixed on my F80 M3 and waiting for a set of rims to arrive. Going to enjoy my F80 for a few more years!
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      09-28-2020, 02:39 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cca101 View Post
If this is your first m3, it's great. Coming from f80 comp, it doesn't make the decision to get the new one easy. I want it based on looks, but I also.want it to perform better than my f80, and the numbers don't look like it does, acceleration wise.
Have you seen the X3M/X4M numbers? Now imagine that same power but in a 400 lb lighter pkg. Yeah. The G8x Ms will smoke the F8x Ms (stock for stock obviously).
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      09-28-2020, 06:33 AM   #30
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The days of me squaring next to every car on the road to see who's faster, are over.

It's me and my car. A well-tuned M3 6MT will be perfect.
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      09-28-2020, 06:54 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmo 335i View Post
Spot on OP. Said the same on the M2 board and I was nearly run off. BMW crippled it with a sub-par platform but will then claim the take rate is so low they can’t justify it making them any longer. I sound like a spokesperson for the White House 🤭
"Crippled it." Right. You're about to be run off these forums as well lol.
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      09-28-2020, 08:06 AM   #32
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If I end up with one I most likely will get the 6mt but then rely on aftermarket to bring the power up. I guess the engine upgrades will be able to be had somehow.
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      09-28-2020, 08:26 AM   #33
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Horsepower jockeys crack me up. 500hp isn't enough. They want fast n furious. 10s seconds or less 1/4 mile and roll races on the highway like the 2000s. Tunes. Overnight parts. Race wars.

I test drove the new 992 before deciding it wasn't for me. That car was so fast that it was boring to drive. I couldn't even ring out the engine, it's just instant illegal speeds. Can't even have fun. I've been through this with motorcycles as well.

I want a balanced and engaging road car. Probably part of the reason they detuned the engine with the 6MT is for balance and control. The ZF can be tuned and calibrated along with the AWD system for all kinds of control. The 6MT probably transfers power more directly anyway. Weight savings, ect. I'm totally cool with the power specs on the 6MT, I'm happy it's offered and it will probably end up being the one everyone wants in the end.
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      09-28-2020, 09:23 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E46toF30 View Post
At this point beggars can't be choosers as BMW is the only manufacturer to offer a 4 door high powered luxury sports sedan in a manual. I for one, am grateful for that.

#savethemanuals
The new Cadillac CT5 Blackwing will be offered in a manual with 4 doors and with more HP than the G80.
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      09-28-2020, 09:27 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by robopp View Post
Killed off the DSG? Audi has the DSG on their most exciting car - the RS3. Also, the R8 is still DSG too. The RS5 is an anomaly since it's just a 'soft' car so the ZF fits.
RS4, RS5, RS6 and RS7 all went 8AT.
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      09-28-2020, 11:06 AM   #36
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The manual even if it had the exact same power rating as the auto was always going to the the slower car.. slower off the line and slower on the track.

Raw performance is not what a manual is about, a manual is about the experience and fun of rowing your own gears and manipulating the clutch.

The way I see it is, in order to make the best version of that experience available but with realistic ROI for a for profit company with shareholders and governance, they reused a good manual transmission design from the F8x which has a torque limit vs the box they installed on the f10 which can handle more torque but the shifting experience was worse.
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      09-28-2020, 11:50 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by robopp View Post
Killed off the DSG? Audi has the DSG on their most exciting car - the RS3. Also, the R8 is still DSG too. The RS5 is an anomaly since it's just a 'soft' car so the ZF fits.
RS4, RS5, RS6 and RS7 all went 8AT.
RS5, 6 and 7 are all very heavy, soft cars so the ZF is well suited for them. RS4 is a pipe dream here in the US. Wish they would have brought over the RS4 avant instead of the RS6. I'd be all over that car.
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      09-28-2020, 11:52 AM   #38
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My faith in humanity has somewhat been restored by many of the comments here. Manual buyers do not care about 0-60 or whatever, they care about the driving experience. Why is the Miata so heavily lauded? It is slow as hell, but it is also one of the most fun cars I have driven, without the risk at been thrown in jail.

BMW has also made the fact that basically all of the options offered on the comp, can be added to the non-comp (other than power bump). This is phenomenal and it shows BMW does care for the manual.
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      09-28-2020, 12:24 PM   #39
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IMO the amount of power is fine in the MT form. Most manual buyers aren't spreadsheet racers and probably aren't visiting the track as much as the auto buyers pretend to. In the end we can always add a little tune to it. I suspect the issue isn't transmission torque rating (when was the last time you heard of an F8x blowing it's 6MT), but the clutch which is also something easily dealt with in the aftermarket.
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      09-28-2020, 12:31 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stefan View Post
Most manual buyers aren't spreadsheet racers and probably aren't visiting the track as much as the auto buyers pretend to.
Great comment.
I think this 6MT and Auto model disdiction will further differentiate the type of buyers.

I know I'll be giving more props to a G8x owner with 6MT.
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      09-28-2020, 12:40 PM   #41
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I don't think it's a poisonous dagger or anything like that. I see the M3 and M3 comp as the same cars. The comp is just a more hardcore version that will give you a competitive edge at the race track. If you want the fastest lap times, the manual aint gonna do it anyway.

If people really want a manual, I would hope that they wouldn't cancel their plan because it's only available in the non-comp trim.
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      09-28-2020, 02:27 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naveeds786 View Post
I don't think it's a poisonous dagger or anything like that. I see the M3 and M3 comp as the same cars. The comp is just a more hardcore version that will give you a competitive edge at the race track. If you want the fastest lap times, the manual aint gonna do it anyway.

If people really want a manual, I would hope that they wouldn't cancel their plan because it's only available in the non-comp trim.
I for once I'm very glad the manual is available on the non-comp. I think the M3C needs to be tone down aesthetically.
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      09-28-2020, 02:58 PM   #43
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Well I feel like it's friggin Christmas time! 2021 M3/4 will still offer a manual! Long after its competitors have given up on any kind of manual.

Like others have said, switching the DCT for the 8sp ZF is a bigger deal for me.

Regarding the AWD comment... M cars are not supposed to be AWD. Unfortunately we had the Audi guy as head of the M division for a while and this is where we are, but AWD is an Audi thing.

Thank God they still decided to make a real RWD version for those of us who can drive.
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      09-28-2020, 06:35 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlterZgo View Post
I don't think 6MT sales will be affected all that much. 6MTs have been slower than DCTs and automatics for a long time now (basically since the E9x Ms). To have yet another generation where the 6MT is slower than the automatic M is not a huge deterrent to those who prefer a 6MT. Besides, the last gen was already plenty fast and the G8x is even faster - even the reduced power 6MT version will feel extremely fast.

To complicate matters, the fact that BMW got rid of the DCT may actually cause some enthusiasts to go back to the 6MT even with the reduced power. Personally, I'm a 6MT guy all the way. However, I had decided that I would just keep my F80 6MT to have the fun of shifting manually and get a G82 M4 in DCT as my next car... until I heard they were going to be slushbox automatics. I despise torque converter automatics so now I'm rethinking this and may go with a G80 6MT M3.

I don't really care much that the 6MT will have less power. It is just a tune away from having more power than the comp pack cars. I know people are saying the new Bosch ECUs are uncrackable. I'm sure it will be cracked in the next 2-3 yrs when I'm ready for my G80 M3. In the meantime, I just got my crankhub fixed on my F80 M3 and waiting for a set of rims to arrive. Going to enjoy my F80 for a few more years!
I'm one of these. This will be my first *brand new* M3 purchase and I'm jumping for a manual since no DCT is available. When driving, the 8AT won't cut it for me in the emotion department. I've used it before and struggle to see what tuning can be done to make it feel the way I want.

This set up may actually increase the relative 6MT take rate unless the car is hamstrung in some other way.
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