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      02-07-2019, 11:20 AM   #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
Incorrect. F10 M5 came with 6 speed as well and that engine was rated 530 lb-ft.
many years ago the manual version V8 5 series would burn the stock clutch in about 40k miles.

I really think after 400hp and 400 torque street use daily drive is excess.

I enjoyed my MK7 gti. It never felt under powered.

As long as the new M3 feels amazing to drive and looks good I'm okay with the HP and Torque numbers
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      02-07-2019, 06:44 PM   #222
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So the M4 will come later/after the M3 for this cycle and be offered the same way as well? Or will it be different since the M4 is considered a 2-door sports car-ish-type vehicle?

No 6-speed manual + Comp? Only the neutered hp version for the manual M4 as well?
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      02-07-2019, 09:19 PM   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2011zx10R View Post
many years ago the manual version V8 5 series would burn the stock clutch in about 40k miles.

I really think after 400hp and 400 torque street use daily drive is excess.

I enjoyed my MK7 gti. It never felt under powered.

As long as the new M3 feels amazing to drive and looks good I'm okay with the HP and Torque numbers
The issue on those V8s isn't the torque rating of pressure plates but unevenly wearing throwout bearings due to improper design. There are many who have driven past 100k miles on the original clutch with E92 M3.

Current S55 produces 406 lbft of torque is more than enough for a car that weights ~1400kg. What we need is less weight and lower CoG, not more power and higher torque that runs out nearing 7000 rpm. I have no complaints to be honest as long as the base model weighs 50-80kg less than base F82 M4.
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      02-12-2019, 10:57 PM   #224
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I think we should be encouraged by the pricing on the M3 if we think similar ratios will hold as the x3 lineup.

the 2020 x3m starts at ~69k vs ~54k for the 2019 x3 M40i. the M40i is Missing the new 382hp b58 as well as the x3m comes with better standard content (looks like most of the premium package is standard)

The m340 is going to start at ~56k so we could be looking at ~72k M3 xdrive, ~79k for a comp version. I suppose the wild card is the pure version... will it cost the same or less than the base car...
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      02-12-2019, 11:05 PM   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xlover View Post
I think we should be encouraged by the pricing on the M3 if we think similar ratios will hold as the x3 lineup.

the 2020 x3m starts at ~69k vs ~54k for the 2019 x3 M40i. the M40i is Missing the new 382hp b58 as well as the x3m comes with better standard content (looks like most of the premium package is standard)

The m340 is going to start at ~56k so we could be looking at ~72k M3 xdrive, ~79k for a comp version. I suppose the wild card is the pure version... will it cost the same or less than the base car...
I feel like the base will come with mxdrive and cost $70k just like the x3 m.

One thing to point out, its technically the same price as the F80, but for $70k on the f80 you got dct, m-sport seats and a carbon strut brace.

On the X3 M thread, it says, m-sport seats are only standard on the competition, the strut brace is an option.

I guess this is how BMW will be passing a price increase on. I wonder if the base M3 will have a carbon roof ?

Last edited by hans007; 02-13-2019 at 12:42 AM..
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      02-12-2019, 11:38 PM   #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hans007 View Post
I guess this is how BMW will be passing a price increase on. I wonder if the base M3 will have a carbon roof ?
F80 M3 had CF roof as standard, NC option on moonroof. One piece CF strut bar is also standard on M3, unlike it's optional in X3M and partial CF construction. Aluminum front fenders and hood also further reduced weight. We hope G80/G82 can continue with lightweight components construction trend!
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      02-13-2019, 12:43 AM   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mii View Post
F80 M3 had CF roof as standard, NC option on moonroof. One piece CF strut bar is also standard on M3, unlike it's optional in X3M and partial CF construction. Aluminum front fenders and hood also further reduced weight. We hope G80/G82 can continue with lightweight components construction trend!
not to mention carbon prop shaft, that eventually also went away.
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      02-14-2019, 09:50 AM   #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PureModelsOnly View Post
I'm fantasizing that the Pure will have CF hood, single zone climate control, manual seats to save even more weight.
I would absolutely hate manual seats...memory seats are critical when driving manual. Every time you get your car detailed you have to re-position your seats and it is virtually impossible to replicate the same settings you have grown accustomed to.
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      02-14-2019, 11:13 AM   #229
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I would love manual seats. I want the pure to somehow weigh 3200lbs. Is it possible?
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      02-14-2019, 05:31 PM   #230
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I would love manual seats. I want the pure to somehow weigh 3200lbs. Is it possible?
Zero chance. That's ~100 lbs. less than a stripper Corvette.
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      02-15-2019, 04:51 PM   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
Incorrect. F10 M5 came with 6 speed as well and that engine was rated 530 lb-ft.
My Comp Pac F10 M5 with 6MT is rated at 575 hp and 501 lbs-ft of torque, I believe.

God bless,
TT

Last edited by TomTarzian; 03-01-2019 at 10:10 PM..
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      02-20-2019, 06:24 AM   #232
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Of course they can make the 6MT reliable for the Base or even the Competition model...the F10 M5, F12 M6 all had the 6MT option. Nobody running tunes on S55 ever reported busted 6MT which shows the gearbox can take the torque.

Imagine the 6MT version close to 100Kg lighter with less drivetrain drag...it will kill the X Drive version in ultimate performance. This means they will push people to go back to 6MT for higher performance and they don't want that.

That is the main reason they reduced engine power on the Pure version.
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      02-20-2019, 08:53 AM   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
Of course they can make the 6MT reliable for the Base or even the Competition model...the F10 M5, F12 M6 all had the 6MT option. Nobody running tunes on S55 ever reported busted 6MT which shows the gearbox can take the torque.

Imagine the 6MT version close to 100Kg lighter with less drivetrain drag...it will kill the X Drive version in ultimate performance. This means they will push people to go back to 6MT for higher performance and they don't want that.

That is the main reason they reduced engine power on the Pure version.
This is the first thing I've read that makes any sense.
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      02-20-2019, 12:19 PM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PureModelsOnly View Post
So what you're saying is the G80 Pure will be the next Cayman GT4
It'll be interesting to see how the Pure and Comp dyno. 30hp difference in advertising. But BMW could just be underrating the 473hp Pure number and it's actually putting out the same 503hp as Comp.

And as a previous poster alluded to, without parastic losses of AWD drivetrain and 8AT, it could be more of a wash even Pure coming out ahead...
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      02-20-2019, 02:16 PM   #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post

Imagine the 6MT version close to 100Kg lighter with less drivetrain drag...it will kill the X Drive version in ultimate performance. This means they will push people to go back to 6MT for higher performance and they don't want that.

That is the main reason they reduced engine power on the Pure version.
This isn't a bad theory, but doesn't explain why the same horsepower difference's occur in the X3M (regular vs competition). Although I agree the real world difference in the M3 will be much less due to weight savings of the manual/lack of AWD. Ultimately this differentiation between base and competition is mostly a marketing ploy as most will pay the premium for "more" horsepower even though its actual benefits may not worth the additionally cost.

Edit: After re-reading my comment I realize I was comparing the wrong HP figures. The Pure is listed as 444 vs base at 473 (equal to X3M base) which makes Karmic Man's comment about reduced power to not out perform the heavier version make more sense, my bad!

Last edited by Pic18; 02-21-2019 at 08:38 AM.. Reason: mistake
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      02-20-2019, 03:53 PM   #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pic18 View Post
This isn't a bad theory, but doesn't explain why the same horsepower difference's occur in the X3M (regular vs competition). Although I agree the real world difference in the M3 will be much less due to weight savings of the manual/lack of AWD. Ultimately this differentiation between base and competition is mostly a marketing ploy as most will pay the premium for "more" horsepower even though its actual benefits may not worth the additionally cost.
So basically like in Europe instead of paying 81.000 euro for the pure and instead pay 90.000 euro for the competition model not worth the cost? It’s not like we are talking about a 25.000 euro pure car and a 34.000 euro competition model.

I mean if you are willing to pay over 80.000 euro for a car why then not spend the extra money for a factory (and thus warranty) tuned version that comes with xdrive, and 8 speed auto box. Imho it will certainly be worth the extra money.

Sure if you are not planning to use it as a daily driver or are not always stuck in traffic then go for the base or pure model with RWD and manual transmission.
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      02-20-2019, 10:55 PM   #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
it will kill the X Drive version in ultimate performance. This means they will push people to go back to 6MT for higher performance and they don't want that.

That is the main reason they reduced engine power on the Pure version.
Come on if same power the xDrive version with paddles will be the higher performer for 98% of drivers. Maybe not as fun or challenging but it will be faster around a track and 1/4 mile as well.
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      02-21-2019, 08:37 AM   #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G4BR13L View Post
So basically like in Europe instead of paying 81.000 euro for the pure and instead pay 90.000 euro for the competition model not worth the cost? It’s not like we are talking about a 25.000 euro pure car and a 34.000 euro competition model.

I mean if you are willing to pay over 80.000 euro for a car why then not spend the extra money for a factory (and thus warranty) tuned version that comes with xdrive, and 8 speed auto box. Imho it will certainly be worth the extra money.

Sure if you are not planning to use it as a daily driver or are not always stuck in traffic then go for the base or pure model with RWD and manual transmission.
I realized after re-reading my comment and the quote it was based on I was comparing the wrong things and I do agree that at what is likely a 60 hp difference between the pure and competition it is worth it for the additional cost.

That said I slightly disagree in that just because I maybe able to afford $70,000 US, doesn't necessarily mean I can afford $80,000 US so from that perspective I will likely go with the pure whether or not I will use it as a daily driver.
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      02-21-2019, 04:10 PM   #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
Of course they can make the 6MT reliable for the Base or even the Competition model...the F10 M5, F12 M6 all had the 6MT option. Nobody running tunes on S55 ever reported busted 6MT which shows the gearbox can take the torque.

Imagine the 6MT version close to 100Kg lighter with less drivetrain drag...it will kill the X Drive version in ultimate performance. This means they will push people to go back to 6MT for higher performance and they don't want that.

That is the main reason they reduced engine power on the Pure version.
I think this makes sense, especially if BMW is thinking about Ring lap times, it was possible Pure was too close or even better than the Base in testing with equivalent HP (being lighter and less power loss). Thus they detuned the engine to keep the hierarchy.

It's just too bad the power gap between Pure and Competition is so large (~60hp).

As an aside, I wonder if the detuned engine (assuming they don't make it any structurally weaker) will be much more reliable. Not that BMW engines commonly break anyways (usually water pumps, turbos, rubber/plastic, etc.)
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      02-21-2019, 04:57 PM   #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
Of course they can make the 6MT reliable for the Base or even the Competition model...the F10 M5, F12 M6 all had the 6MT option. Nobody running tunes on S55 ever reported busted 6MT which shows the gearbox can take the torque.

Imagine the 6MT version close to 100Kg lighter with less drivetrain drag...it will kill the X Drive version in ultimate performance. This means they will push people to go back to 6MT for higher performance and they don't want that.

That is the main reason they reduced engine power on the Pure version.
That's not how these decisions are made. Competition models are typically not noticeably faster than the base models anyway. They wouldn't handicap the pure model that much just because of some concern about relative performance, and especially not ring times. The awd 8pseed version would be faster in most performance metrics anyway.

It's either a durability/compatibility issue, a cost issue, or they are trying to limit 6mt's to prepare us for a complete phase out next generation.
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      02-22-2019, 01:32 AM   #241
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Carbon buckets will come via IND. I am getting a fully loaded Competion. I hope that someone will come out with a tuning pack and Ohlins get something to work w the electronic dampers.
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      02-26-2019, 09:12 AM   #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G4BR13L View Post
So basically like in Europe instead of paying 81.000 euro for the pure and instead pay 90.000 euro for the competition model not worth the cost? It’s not like we are talking about a 25.000 euro pure car and a 34.000 euro competition model.

I mean if you are willing to pay over 80.000 euro for a car why then not spend the extra money for a factory (and thus warranty) tuned version that comes with xdrive, and 8 speed auto box. Imho it will certainly be worth the extra money.

Sure if you are not planning to use it as a daily driver or are not always stuck in traffic then go for the base or pure model with RWD and manual transmission.
Those of us that regularly track our cars don’t need or want near 100kg penalty in drivetrain weight when all you need is bigger, stickier tires with more negative camber for better performance.

More gears don’t necessarily benefit at tracks as you are better off carrying speed into corners with minimum gear changes.

Same reason why tracked 911s are seldom AWD.
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