[PLF69]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

its same msrp as the GT4RS and Audi R8 performance. it may be that over there dealers can't markup or add ADM. I know thats the case in Canada.

Well aware since I am Canada, I had an opportunity to acquire a GT4RS, me and my buddy who owns a GT4 we decided to skip and the guy who has the allocation owns a 2022 GT3 and doesn't want it. It's a crazy car but at the cost of many other aspects.

I will take time to read the article and come back with my thoughts. At least now I can have a true opinion on the CSL.

[M3WC]

M4 GTS got less than stellar reviews like this CSL. GTS was a more hardcore setup, media didn't understand the car. But in the end owners seemed to love their cars. Owners did lose their ass on them, as some examples dipped all the way into upper $70k range. They have since recovered in current market conditions, but still far from their $133k msrp.

[PLF69]

Originally Posted by M3WC

M4 GTS got less than stellar reviews like this CSL. GTS was a more hardcore setup, media didn't understand the car. But in the end owners seemed to love their cars. Owners did lose their ass on them, as some examples dipped all the way into upper $70k range. They have since recovered in current market conditions, but still far from their $133k msrp.

Here in Canada, near new exemples of GTS are right on MSRP, witch I think back in 2016 was just too expensive.

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

its same msrp as the GT4RS and Audi R8 performance. it may be that over there dealers can't markup or add ADM. I know thats the case in Canada.

Yes that's true in the UK - dealers aren't allowed to sell for more than MSRP from new (but nothing stops them selling above MSRP for a used car, obviously), which then leads to all types of annoyance when dealers sell their low allocation cars to flippers who profit from the mark-up.

GT4RS is not available to the vast majority of UK buyers as a new car - Porsche dealers will only sell to "valued customers". Currently, dealers are pushing their used GT4RS for £250-£300k roughly double the price of a well-spec'd new GT4RS.

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by HudsonHornett

Yes that's true in the UK - dealers aren't allowed to sell for more than MSRP from new (but nothing stops them selling above MSRP for a used car, obviously), which then leads to all types of annoyance when dealers sell their low allocation cars to flippers who profit from the mark-up.

GT4RS is not available to the vast majority of UK buyers as a new car - Porsche dealers will only sell to "valued customers". Currently, dealers are pushing their used GT4RS for £250-£300k roughly double the price of a well-spec'd new GT4RS.

Almost as insane as Australia

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

Here is the scanned magazine test: https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1975558

They didn't have nice things to say about the CSL. But this is a 'road' test. Heavy cars need stiff springs to handle well on the track. And cars that rely on downforce, like the RS, also need stiff springs to hold up to the downforce at high speed.

On a track test in the middle of summer, the CSL might have faired better.

I disagree, they did say some very nice things about the M4 CSL, what I'm finding odd is the discrepancy in the comments made by Steve Sutcliffe when he was writing for Auto Express and his assessment in EVO, which are completely different. EVO in the ECOTY says the M4CSL is too stiff, on the original first drive (by Jethro, who was driving in ECOTY too), they said it was too soft in comfort mode and just about right in Sport mode - make your damn mind up - which is it? Too firm or too soft? And read the Auto Express review by Steve Sutcliffe - at complete odds with what he said there to what he said in EVO.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/bmw/4-...sl-2022-review

[HudsonHornett]

Also, a dealer in the UK put a GR86 up for sale for £60k!!! Literally double the retail price, I think I'll be selling mine if that turns out to be the market price!

[Higgs Boson]

based on the merits and demerits of each car that determined placement I am pretty sure that if a Ford Raptor had been in the running it would have won.

who cares if the CSL isn't the best car for UK roads, lol. Raise your hands if you bought a CSL to drive fasts over potholes on your way to Scotland. The article is just not applicable to the purpose of the car, doesn't mean it's a bad car, it's a great car!

Every car has it's own character. I love the subdued nature of my R8 and I love the wild child nature of the CSL and I wouldn't be caught dead in a GR86. The CSL is a bad mofo even though I'm not going to drive it to the ranch.

[Gunnerforlife]

Originally Posted by HudsonHornett

I disagree, they did say some very nice things about the M4 CSL, what I'm finding odd is the discrepancy in the comments made by Steve Sutcliffe when he was writing for Auto Express and his assessment in EVO, which are completely different. EVO in the ECOTY says the M4CSL is too stiff, on the original first drive (by Jethro, who was driving in ECOTY too), they said it was too soft in comfort mode and just about right in Sport mode - make your damn mind up - which is it? Too firm or too soft? And read the Auto Express review by Steve Sutcliffe - at complete odds with what he said there to what he said in EVO.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/bmw/4-...sl-2022-review

It's very confusing and strange. Steve praised the suspension and rightly so and said it's better than the competition and not very stiff. Same with Jethro who said it felt like expensive suspension so it's weird. I'm wondering what tires Steve used initially and then in EVO. I still don't get the too stiff comments because I drive it everywhere on sport and it's not.

[Gunnerforlife]

Originally Posted by Higgs Boson

based on the merits and demerits of each car that determined placement I am pretty sure that if a Ford Raptor had been in the running it would have won.

who cares if the CSL isn't the best car for UK roads, lol. Raise your hands if you bought a CSL to drive fasts over potholes on your way to Scotland. The article is just not applicable to the purpose of the car, doesn't mean it's a bad car, it's a great car!

Every car has it's own character. I love the subdued nature of my R8 and I love the wild child nature of the CSL and I wouldn't be caught dead in a GR86. The CSL is a bad mofo even though I'm not going to drive it to the ranch.

Exactly! they're missing the point of the car. It's made to be lively and engaging not to drive while you're half asleep and I think if you bought one and this is what you're looking for, then you'll love it. I personally love the edgy personality and it's exactly what I'm looking for.

[Humdizzle]

Originally Posted by Gunnerforlife

Exactly! they're missing the point of the car. It's made to be lively and engaging not to drive while you're half asleep and I think if you bought one and this is what you're looking for, then you'll love it. I personally love the edgy personality and it's exactly what I'm looking for.

wouldn't a DCT or manual have made this car more lively and engaging? all the competitors aside from the mercedes have a dct box (gr86 has a good manual). I have no first hand experience with a CSL myself but have driven a supra with the ZF8 and found it laggy on downshifts compared to the m-dct in f8x cars. it is smoother in stop-n-go traffic and daily driving though when just left in auto.

here is an excerpt from top gear regarding the CSL's trans (watch from 6:50):
"i have to say... this gearbox is fine on upshifts... but it has no place in a sports car"

[ScullyD]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

wouldn't a DCT or manual have made this car more lively and engaging? all the competitors aside from the mercedes have a dct box (gr86 has a good manual). I have no first hand experience with a CSL myself but have driven a supra with the ZF8 and found it laggy on downshifts compared to the m-dct in f8x cars. it is smoother in stop-n-go traffic and daily driving though when just left in auto.

here is an excerpt from top gear regarding the CSL's trans (watch from 6:50):
"i have to say... this gearbox is fine on upshifts... but it has no place in a sports car"

https://youtu.be/oYq3i4X7h5c?t=429

It’s super fast on upshifts, downshifts a bit laggy. I was never a big fan of the m-DCT and I’m not a fan of this ZF8 either.

But it’s more comparable with cars like a Project 8 or Alfa GTAm, it’s a crazy saloon car not a sports car.

My biggest drawback is it’s too hyper aggressive in 3-bar mode and mimics a DCT but doesn’t feel as authentic. So I dial it back to 2 bars, seems just as fast but better slurred. I need to spend more time with it, but I haven’t driven an M5 CS so I’d like someone who has driven both to chime in.

The car shouldn’t be judged on if it should have a DCT or not, or a manual, both that aren’t in development or would be for 1000 cars.. It should be judged on if the gearbox is somehow worse than an M4C/M5 CS or if the car should have had less torque and the manual from the 3.0 CSL.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

Seeing enough posts saying this, that i guess its true. It wasn't a 5 star car originally, it was a 4.5 star car in the original magazine review by Jethro.

Should make for an interesting read. I won't expect the CSL to higher than 6th or 7th then. I'd hope its viewed as better to drive than a SL55.

MC20 was, in fact, 2nd. I have a friend who had one of the first ones (he also has/had Carrera GT (second one), 911R, GT3RS, 992 GT3T, 992 turbo S (his 3rd or 4th one), Aventador SVJ, R8 v10+, Singer (second one), 600LT, 765 LT, and he said the MC20 was right up there.

CSL was 9th/10 with the SL55 being last.

[PLF69]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

It’s super fast on upshifts, downshifts a bit laggy. I was never a big fan of the m-DCT and I’m not a fan of this ZF8 either.

But it’s more comparable with cars like a Project 8 or Alfa GTAm, it’s a crazy saloon car not a sports car.

My biggest drawback is it’s too hyper aggressive in 3-bar mode and mimics a DCT but doesn’t feel as authentic. So I dial it back to 2 bars, seems just as fast but better slurred. I need to spend more time with it, but I haven’t driven an M5 CS so I’d like someone who has driven both to chime in.

The car shouldn’t be judged on if it should have a DCT or not, or a manual, both that aren’t in development or would be for 1000 cars.. It should be judged on if the gearbox is somehow worse than an M4C/M5 CS or if the car should have had less torque and the manual from the 3.0 CSL.

BMW should of just skipped the 3.0 CSL and offer the M4 CSL with a manual but I guess they may be reserving this treatment for an M2 CSL who knows.. I know I am putting my name to be first for a Manual M2 CSL, I took the CSL today and I like the setup so much, a manual would of cemented it as a keeper for me.

I am not saying that the ZF8 is not good or that the CSL is worst or anything, I know I said in another thread that this car is better with an auto to extract it's performance and I still stand by what I said but for me I realised I want to have to work more and be more part of the driving all the time with my 3rd car.

With that said I don't think an M-DCT would aid much the CSL, it would make the downshifts a bit more dramatic but that's about it, the upshift are so fast and satisfying, the ZF8 does the job very well.

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

MC20 was, in fact, 2nd. I have a friend who had one of the first ones (he also has/had Carrera GT (second one), 911R, GT3RS, 992 GT3T, 992 turbo S (his 3rd or 4th one), Aventador SVJ, R8 v10+, Singer (second one), 600LT, 765 LT, and he said the MC20 was right up there.

CSL was 9th/10 with the SL55 being last.

Sorry, I may have missed something but what do you mean when you say the MC20 was second? Is this in reference to Top Gear Magazine? If so, I'd take that with a massive pinch of salt - Top Gear is NOT one of the better UK publications. Autocar and EVO would be my "go to" mags to assess cars, followed by Auto Express after that, they're all a bit hit and miss.

Your mate has a very impressive array of cars - if he ever wants some more friends - feel free to introduce us

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by HudsonHornett

Sorry, I may have missed something but what do you mean when you say the MC20 was second? Is this in reference to Top Gear Magazine? If so, I'd take that with a massive pinch of salt - Top Gear is NOT one of the better UK publications. Autocar and EVO would be my "go to" mags to assess cars, followed by Auto Express after that, they're all a bit hit and miss.

Your mate has a very impressive array of cars - if he ever wants some more friends - feel free to introduce us

Evo CotY the MC20.

Here are the results I was told from the print.

1. MC20
2. gr86
3. 296/Artura
5. GT4RS
6. R8
7. M4CSL
8. SL55

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

Evo CotY the MC20.

Here are the results I was told from the print.

1. MC20
2. gr86
3. 296/Artura
5. GT4RS
6. R8
7. M4CSL
8. SL55

Ah fair enough, you confused me when you said "the MC20 was in fact second". And the M4CSL was 9/10th, I thought you'd seen another review with a similar range of cars.

[rush111]

[QUOTE=PLF69;29625279]BMW should of just skipped the 3.0 CSL and offer the M4 CSL with a manual but I guess they may be reserving this treatment for an M2 CSL who knows.. I know I am putting my name to be first for a Manual M2 CSL, I took the CSL today and I like the setup so much, a manual would of cemented it as a keeper for me.

I am not saying that the ZF8 is not good or that the CSL is worst or anything, I know I said in another thread that this car is better with an auto to extract it's performance and I still stand by what I said but for me I realised I want to have to work more and be more part of the driving all the time with my 3rd car.

With that said I don't think an M-DCT would aid much the CSL, it would make the downshifts a bit more dramatic but that's about it, the upshift are so fast and satisfying, the ZF8 does the job


I find the ZF8 to be a good autoT but it shows some laziness (up or down) on the track under high load/rev. Now, not sure if CSL has different programming than my G82CX. Looks like we drive at same track (LCMT), looking forward to see your car at the track next spring!

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by HudsonHornett

Ah fair enough, you confused me when you said "the MC20 was in fact second". And the M4CSL was 9/10th, I thought you'd seen another review with a similar range of cars.

The way it saw it laid out was that the MC20 won and places 2 through 10 were...and the CSL was 2nd to last but then I realized there were only 8 cars in the test so updated to reflect the proper rankings.

[ScullyD]

Originally Posted by PLF69

BMW should of just skipped the 3.0 CSL and offer the M4 CSL with a manual but I guess they may be reserving this treatment for an M2 CSL who knows.. I know I am putting my name to be first for a Manual M2 CSL, I took the CSL today and I like the setup so much, a manual would of cemented it as a keeper for me.

I am not saying that the ZF8 is not good or that the CSL is worst or anything, I know I said in another thread that this car is better with an auto to extract it's performance and I still stand by what I said but for me I realised I want to have to work more and be more part of the driving all the time with my 3rd car.

With that said I don't think an M-DCT would aid much the CSL, it would make the downshifts a bit more dramatic but that's about it, the upshift are so fast and satisfying, the ZF8 does the job very well.

Personally, i'd like a comparo test of all the cars (M5 CS, M4 CSL, GTAm and P8) to see who implemented the ZF8 the best for a track focused car. I have a hard time understanding if the ZF8 in the CSL is giving me massive feedback cause its trying to provide the quickest shift. Or if they are somehow dialing in drama that doesn't really need to be there.

But the M-DCT in the final iteration needed to be improved upon to get to PDK level and wouldn't be much better than the ZF8 speed even if its a 100ms faster.

I think ultimately BMW M should have forgone the whole 3.0 CSL thing. Make the M4 CSL "GTS Package" with a wing, cage and ZF8 to tackle a Nurburgring time with more downforce, and then give you the option of the car with no wing and a manual and less power in a "touring model". Instead they provided 1 car which tried to do everything and people feel lukewarm about. GT4 RS is a similar problem, it came in only hardcore track version of something that people want in a "Touring" version.

But ultimately, this car will age well regardless of ECotY rankings because its easy to live with and its fun AF to drive.

[TractionControlDelete]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

Personally, i'd like a comparo test of all the cars (M5 CS, M4 CSL, GTAm and P8) to see who implemented the ZF8 the best for a track focused car. I have a hard time understanding if the ZF8 in the CSL is giving me massive feedback cause its trying to provide the quickest shift. Or if they are somehow dialing in drama that doesn't really need to be there.

But the M-DCT in the final iteration needed to be improved upon to get to PDK level and wouldn't be much better than the ZF8 speed even if its a 100ms faster.

I think ultimately BMW M should have forgone the whole 3.0 CSL thing. Make the M4 CSL "GTS Package" with a wing, cage and ZF8 to tackle a Nurburgring time with more downforce, and then give you the option of the car with no wing and a manual and less power in a "touring model". Instead they provided 1 car which tried to do everything and people feel lukewarm about. GT4 RS is a similar problem, it came in only hardcore track version of something that people want in a "Touring" version.

But ultimately, this car will age well regardless of ECotY rankings because its easy to live with and its fun AF to drive.

The two version strategy makes alot of sense to me… kind of what Alfa Romeo did with the GTA model.

[ScullyD]

Pistonheads car of the year:

https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-...-of-2022/46646