[Artemis]

Originally Posted by T_U_D

The G87 is 453 hp in the U.S., no clue why the 460 number is mentioned elsewhere. I have not invested anytime into researching the matter. BMW is always conservative on their horsepower and 0-60 numbers anyways.

Originally Posted by M_Power Rob

Was wondering how it went from 453 to 460, also. I guess my fingers/brain had the 460 number programmed when I posted above. Either way, I bet it will dyno higher than the mysterious 460 figure.

kW is the determining value for BMW power output. hp and ps are just conversions.

kW - hp - ps:
https://www.rapidtables.com/convert/power/kw-to-hp.html

G87 M2 = 338 kW announced:

[r0wr]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

No the M2 CS felt massively different than an M2C as did an M5 CS to an M5C. Maybe the F80 M3 CS didn’t feel that much different than an M3, but that was before BMW put out those 2 CS cars I mentioned.

No one said it was akin to a 911 vs a 911 GT3, but it is about a significant feel in the way the car drives vs. it’s base model. It’s also about an $18k price premium on an xdrive M3 while a GT3 (after ADM) is about a $100k+ premium on a base 911.

What you’re feeling is mostly minor changes to software, tuning and weight. You’re cherry picking numbers. M3 base is $75k vs $119k for the CS. 911 base is $106k vs $170k. The % price difference between the models is eerily smiliar but the GT3 actually comes with massive note worthy upgrades beyond just being lighter and tuning. This is my main point. The CS in every iteration indoubtedly has been great but let’s not fool ourselves into thinking that the price increase actually warrants a worthy upgrade.

[M2CS]

Originally Posted by r0wr

What you’re feeling is mostly minor changes to software, tuning and weight. You’re cherry picking numbers. M3 base is $75k vs $119k for the CS. 911 base is $106k vs $170k. The % price difference between the models is eerily smiliar but the GT3 actually comes with massive note worthy upgrades beyond just being lighter and tuning. This is my main point. The CS in every iteration indoubtedly has been great but let’s not fool ourselves into thinking that the price increase actually warrants a worthy upgrade.

How would the price increase not warrant the CS upgrade when you can't mod a Comp to be equal to a CS for less money? You can mod a Comp to simply be faster, but it's never going to be a CS or provide the same experience. Also, if CS retain their value better than a Comp the true cost of ownership is lower for the CS even though the purchase price was higher.

[r0wr]

Originally Posted by M2CS

How would the price increase not warrant the CS upgrade when you can't mod a Comp to be equal to a CS for less money? You can mod a Comp to simply be faster, but it's never going to be a CS or provide the same experience. Also, if CS retain their value better than a Comp the true cost of ownership is lower for the CS even though the purchase price was higher.

You are sippin the juice if you think you can’t mod a Comp to be faster than a CS around a track for the same money.

F80 M3 base msrp was approximately $68k. The F80 M3 CS started at $100k. If you compare used prices at similar but average mileage, I can guarantee you that it won’t be more than a $32k price difference.

And at $32k, you could definitely make a civic M3 go around a track faster than an M3 CS.

[M2CS]

Originally Posted by r0wr

You are sippin the juice if you think you can’t mod a Comp to be faster than a CS around a track for the same money.

F80 M3 base msrp was approximately $68k. The F80 M3 CS started at $100k. If you compare used prices at similar but average mileage, I can guarantee you that it won’t be more than a $32k price difference.

I think you misread my post. I said you can mod a Comp to be faster, but that doesn't make it a CS or provide the same experience. You can't mod a Comp to have all the same components of a CS for cheaper.

You're comparing a base F80 M3, but how many people are ordering base Comps? Most G80/G82 ordered their car with plenty of options and have invested in mods. F80 owners were no different.

[r0wr]

Originally Posted by M2CS

I think you misread my post. I said you can mod a Comp to be faster, but that doesn't make it a CS or provide the same experience.

You're comparing a base F80 M3, but how many people are ordering base Comps? Most G80/G82 ordered their car with plenty of options and have invested in mods. F80 owners were no different.

Agreed, I misread. Point still stands though, used CS values don’t stand up $ for $. And a modded civic M3 can be modded to provide a better experience for the same money. Whether faster in a straight line or a track. You’re paying for the CS name, a little bit of fine tuning and weight savings, not a different car with better suspension, engine, etc.

[M2CS]

Originally Posted by r0wr

Agreed, I misread. Point still stands though, used CS values don’t stand up $ for $. And a modded civic M3 can be modded to provide a better experience for the same money. Whether faster in a straight line or a track. You’re paying for the CS name, a little bit of fine tuning and weight savings, not a different car with better suspension, engine, etc.

In my case it came with adaptive suspension, upgraded leather to Merino, CF hood, CF roof, engine tune, fine tuning and low production numbers. Last time I inquired, I could tell sell my car for more than I paid for it.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by r0wr

You are sippin the juice if you think you can’t mod a Comp to be faster than a CS around a track for the same money.

F80 M3 base msrp was approximately $68k. The F80 M3 CS started at $100k. If you compare used prices at similar but average mileage, I can guarantee you that it won’t be more than a $32k price difference.

And at $32k, you could definitely make a civic M3 go around a track faster than an M3 CS.

Why would the as-new price difference not depreciate along with the value along with the rest of the car?

[M Division]

Pretty impressive, no mention of new hardware so it must be primarily boost increase. But they must be managing to still hit emissions and economy targets so can't just be simple boost increases they must be refining the ECU maps aswell.

Goes to show how much headroom there is and how incredibly impressive the design of the S58 is.

The aftermarket tunes are producing big numbers but BMW still have emissions to deal with. Impressive architecture of this S58, shows what a well designed low compression, high boost 6 can do.

[M Division]

It's possible they will also bring some of the new structural reinforcement from the G87 M2 across to do some steering and chassis tuning as part of the LCI package.

[MannyM5]

Originally Posted by r0wr

What you’re feeling is mostly minor changes to software, tuning and weight. You’re cherry picking numbers. M3 base is $75k vs $119k for the CS. 911 base is $106k vs $170k. The % price difference between the models is eerily smiliar but the GT3 actually comes with massive note worthy upgrades beyond just being lighter and tuning. This is my main point. The CS in every iteration indoubtedly has been great but let’s not fool ourselves into thinking that the price increase actually warrants a worthy upgrade.

I think the best direct comparison to Porsche would be the jump from their S-GTS models.

[zero21]

This thread helps to show why HP is such a stupid idea to describe how much Work can be done.

[cmgbk75]

Originally Posted by T_U_D

The G87 is 453 hp in the U.S., no clue why the 460 number is mentioned elsewhere. I have not invested anytime into researching the matter. BMW is always conservative on their horsepower and 0-60 numbers anyways.

I’ve been curious about that 7HP discrepancy as well, it seems to be the UK marketing materials all quote 460 vs ROW is 453. Or at least originally back In October at premier.

[cmgbk75]

Originally Posted by Artemis

kW is the determining value for BMW power output. hp and ps are just conversions.

kW - hp - ps:
https://www.rapidtables.com/convert/power/kw-to-hp.html

G87 M2 = 338 kW announced:
Attachment 3135512

https://youtu.be/6Pkq_eBHXJ4

https://youtu.be/XGhD6HP56UI

Well there you go, always appreciate a Pulp reference as well.

[mirob]

Originally Posted by Dave07997S

As far as Ford Performance, their powerkits are warrantied through Ford Performance. Even though it is a part of Ford, Ford Performance is considered an aftermarket tuner. Granted the power kits use Ford Parts and the tune is done by a lot of Ford Engineers but its not really tied into the factory OEM warranty. The powerkits have to be installed by an ASE certified mechanic. I have one of these kits on my Mustang. It would be nice if BMW has this for the M cars, I remember they used to offer it for the 335/340is in the past.

Some similarities to the Dinan of old.

[CigarManNY]

Originally Posted by G80M_GOD

CM and PTB (Red Bull drift team supplier) have clutch kits that can handle 700hp+, the week link has been addressed.

Good to know, thanks. I have a 6MT G80 on order now... I planned on doing that piggyback dinan chip. I wonder if it's even worth it to upgrade the clutch. I would assume/hope the factory setup could handle it....

[Mako]

When these things have so much power an extra 22 doesn’t really matter, especially considering this is a summer 2024 launch from what I saw (so for me that would have m want to waiting 2 more years). Smart of them to do this on paper, as they are extending the life of these cars so 525hp is good marketing. As others have said the actual power would be interesting to see. They could probably say the current ones are 540hp and no one would question it.

Only thing that would piss me off is if they put the CSL grill on it. The grill they should have all had from the beginning.

[GregW / Oregon]

Originally Posted by cmgbk75

I’ve been curious about that 7HP discrepancy as well, it seems to be the UK marketing materials all quote 460 vs ROW is 453. Or at least originally back In October at premier.

DIN horsepower = 1.0139 x SAE. 1.0139 x 453 = 459.3 because of testing methodology differences.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by zero21

This thread helps to show why HP is such a stupid idea to describe how much Work can be done.

It’s not even that. I’m starting to get the feeling people want the CS because it’s the “top of the line”.

A base manual will already be a handful to the many novice drivers who are buying these cars.

Not sure why people are drooling over a CS when the comp rwd or x drive are very capable track cars and can be a much better daily than the “race car” CS.

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

I’m starting to get the feeling people want the CS because it’s the “top of the line”

That's what it comes down to whether people want to admit it or not.

Stock for stock they are better set up cars.

[PKE90]

Originally Posted by CigarManNY

Good to know, thanks. I have a 6MT G80 on order now... I planned on doing that piggyback dinan chip. I wonder if it's even worth it to upgrade the clutch. I would assume/hope the factory setup could handle it....

I have that setup. I asked Dinan specifically about the clutch and they assured me that it can handle the extra torque. I don’t stress it often (i.e. no launches etc). Let’s see how she does longer term but so far, after 2k miles, all good.

[CigarManNY]

Originally Posted by PKE90

I have that setup. I asked Dinan specifically about the clutch and they assured me that it can handle the extra torque. I don’t stress it often (i.e. no launches etc). Let’s see how she does longer term but so far, after 2k miles, all good.