[DO444]

Originally Posted by Indo Rider

Can't believe I read 4 pages of this. "Youre mom's a sports car" was the best part, so thanks for that.

I missed that, now I have to go back and read them all to find it.

[cleaningup]

Terrible mindset! Any car is a race car if you want it to be https://ideal.media/wp-content/uploa...a-1024x768.jpg

[bri1042]

"Faster and faster until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death." - Hunter S. Thompson.

Some say the quote was about TYPING, not driving, but the quote seems relevant to this thread.

[Psychos1s]

Originally Posted by Psychos1s

First off, have you driven the car hard with all settings maxed out? I'm going to assume not being it's still in the break-in period? The car is a different beast when you compare efficient or sport vs Sport Plus and Transmission in D3 vs D1 etc.

Many people in the forums have said the same thing—you can't compare a Porsche to a BMW. Maybe the Panamera but comparing a 2-seater to a 5 seater is difficult. Right out of the gate they are apples to oranges. I have never driven a Porsche, therefore am going to rely on what I do know. The G8X is fast. Not just in a straight line like a one-trick pony Tesla. Some may say it's numb but it is precise and its track times prove it is a capable car. I can only assume it's the track times, general price range and both being German cars that have people comparing a Porsche to a BMW.

What defines a Sports Car? Wikipedia says, "A sports car is a car designed with an emphasis on dynamic performance, such as handling, acceleration, top speed, the thrill of driving and racing capability." In that case, a G8X in a lot of ways is more of a sports car than a lot of Porsches out there.

Webster Dictionary is probably the more general definition; a low small usually 2-passenger automobile designed for quick response, easy maneuverability, and high-speed driving.

In the latter case, the Porsche is definitely more of a sports car while the G8X is a Luxury Sports Coupe or Sedan in BMW's own terms. I do feel like Wikipedia's definition is probably where people try to put the M3/M4 into the sports car category.

I have a 2009 Audi R8 (v8 manual) and honestly feel my old F80 zCP and G80 are far more capable/precise/fast cars. But then again, that isn't what defines a sports car. A Mazda Miata is a "sports car" yet I'm not sure most would consider it a real sports car.

I will disagree with your point that, "...if you can only have one car - get a Porsche." The M3 is far more practical and as you mentioned yourself, more people want to ride in the M3 over the 718. Now if you have a daily and can only have one car for the weekend, I can see buying a 718 over a M3. But once again, that is really apples to oranges.

I honestly feel the M3/M4 is more like a Mustang GT350 (maybe 500 too), Camaro ZL1, Cadillac CT4/CT5-V Blackwing and of course Giulia Quad, AMG C63 S etc. It's a fast car you can also take a group of people in or pick up your kids and their friends from school.

Thanks for sharing your perspective. I do agree the cars are different and shouldn't be compared.

This randomly showed up on my YT again. Figured it was fitting for this thread even though it's a year old. It must have came back up because of my research before my original post above.

[thebigcheese]

My S4 is a “luxury sports car” the M3 is just a damn beast of a sports car.

[brinkmann]

Buckets and manual transmission go a long way.

[Allerum]

https://youtu.be/LXN9F0MwH24

Xdrive just adds even more destruction to its competitors. A lot of people would think the CAT 7 320R would win. But a 4 sec loss on a real short track is huge.

[vetteflier]

Speed, handling and braking make a car "sports." So does looks, although sometimes showing a sheep in wolf's clothing. The M3 is a luxury, high performance sedan. No 4 door is a "sports" anything to me. The M4 can be called a sports coupe, highest output Mustang/Camaro/Challengers performers are. But I consider it a high performance, luxury GT. It tours comfortably with BMW's renowned quality materials and fit and finish, Surround Sound audio, and latest technology. But, it is a 3.5/11.5@ 126 ~ 550 crank hp blaster when you want. That is the definition of a GT--Aston, (some) Bentleys, Mercs and Audis also--RCF as well. I drove true sports cars (C6s & 7) for 15 years prior to buying a GT, so am confident in the differences. Porsches are sports cars, so are Ferraris. However, for a lot of people, GTs are a better choice. Just mo, of course.

[JY01]

It’s not a sports car, but it’s definitely still a sporty car. For me, my G82 is the ultimate one-and-done performance oriented daily driver. I’m used to smaller cars, I had two 2 Series and a Supra before the M4. The size and weight were a big concern, but I think the suspension and chassis tuning does a great job of translating the weight into a planted and confidence-inspiring driving experience.

[GTS Daddy]

THE M3 and M4 ARE NOT SPORTS CARS. They are sports sedans and sports coupes. The CSL MIGHT qualify, but not a M3 or M4.

[brinkmann]

Originally Posted by GTS Daddy

THE M3 and M4 ARE NOT SPORTS CARS. They are sports sedans and sports coupes. The CSL MIGHT qualify, but not a M3 or M4.

Please don't yell daddy.

[KevinGS]

Can a sports car even be based on a mass-produced lesser vehicle like a 3-series or 4-series? Hmmm... Probably not. No matter how a manufacturer tries to transform a base vehicle into a "sports car", I don't know if it could ever end up being a true sports car.

In my own mind, a vehicle must be built from the ground up (with attention to size and weight) to be a sports car. Most will only have 2 seats, and if a sports car does have a backseat, it wouldn't be usable by adults (i.e. a 911). And even if a manufacturer removes the backseats for a special edition, lightweight model, it's still doesn't transform a regular vehicle into a sports car, not in my mind...because it wasn't built from the ground up that way. It's just a model with seats, sound deadening, and more removed to save weight from a non-sporty base model.

Neither do speed and handling dictate whether a car is a sports car. Just because an M5 CS is an amazing accomplishment with an outstanding Ring time, it has 4 seats so it can't be a sports car. Plus, it's just too big and heavy (even with weight shed), and isolated, to be considered anything near a sports car.

Conversely, a slow Miata, an "average" Audi TT, and even a tourer-like BMW Z4 all fit the definition of a sports car to me, and I don't want any of these cars. LOL

Thus, IMO, a quick list of today's sports cars would be:
Corvette
911
Boxster/Cayman
Miata
Z4 (technically, by definition, but this may be a stretch, I don't know)
R8
Audi TT
2-seat Lambos
2-seat Ferraris
2-seat McClarens
NSX
Jag F-Type (its weight alone pushes this almost into a Grand Tourer like a Mercedes SL, so this one's close...I wouldn't argue if it was left off a true sports car list)
Viper
Toyota Supra
Mercedes AMG GT (and the SL too?)
Nissan Z
Etc.

Close but not quite
M3/M4 (too big, heavy and isolated, and based on a much lesser base model...but is still a great, high performance car, and more than enough for 99% of us enthusiasts)
M2 (backseat too usable, and it's based on a much lesser base model, but is a really good, chuckable, fun car by most standards)
M8/8-series (nope, too big, too heavy, but a premier, ballistically fast GT)
Aston Martins (too big and heavy, and all built as GTs first, though some are modified to be hardcore)
Lexus LC500 (too big and isolated)
Top-level Camaros & Stangs (based on a much lesser base model, and backseats a bit too big)
GR86 (close, very close, maybe it is? does it have a decent backseat?)
Lexus RCF (Lexus has never made a sports car except for the LFA. The RCF is just too heavy and soft, and it has a real backseat...it's like an M4, just a sports coupe)
Jaguar XE SV Project 8 (nope, it's a sedan with gutted rear seats, and it's based on a mid-level XE)

I know I'm missing some sports cars, and of course the line gets really blurry for some cars because of their size, weight, and even intended purpose. AMG GTs definitely are, but the SL? I don't know.

Having said that, none of these definitions really matter. Get the car that fits what you want and/or need. It doesn't matter what anyone labels it. I love my M4, but I do want to add something smaller and more nimble (and it will definitely be slower).

I want a Boxster/Spyder, not because it's a "sports car", but because it fits the criteria I want in my next car. It's not even all that light, but its tidy dimensions and purpose-built, rigid structure created a car that is more go-kart-like and analog...and that's what I want next. No M4, no matter how much weight it loses and how fast one tunes its engine, could ever fill this desire. Yes, a manual with the bucket seats makes the G8X more hardcore, but it doesn't transform it into a sports car.

And I definitely miss the DCT, as I would have traded some tranny smoothness for crispness and drama. No, of course this wouldn't have changed the G8X into a sports car (because none of the past M cars that had DCTs were sports cars either)...but it would have given this G8X a bit more theater which most of us would prefer.

Nevertheless, I will still drive my M4 more, because it's a wonderful do-it-all car, with HIGH levels of performance whenever you want it.

[fanofbmwe46]

Last year I traded in my F80 for a brand new 2022 base 718 cayman 6spd. I figured I would have just as much fun in a precision oriented 2 seater drivers car even though it would be slower than the BMW.

Boy was I wrong. While the 718 has some great qualities (steering, gearbox, clutch feel), it’s otherwise uninspiring and extremely slow. It felt slower than my 4 cyl SUVs. The exhaust sound was ok from the outside but the exhaust/engine sound on the inside was a big let down. I also quickly realized how impractical the car is. I have two young kids and I felt bad never being able to take them anywhere in it.

Overall the 718 just lacked power as the main thrill factor. BMW M cars are brutal with power and that adds tremendously to the fun.

My G80 arrives in a month and I can’t wait to break it in. Sold the 718 to Carvana for a what paid for it with 2500 miles on it.

[DO444]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

Can a sports car even be based on a mass-produced lesser vehicle like a 3-series or 4-series? Hmmm... Probably not. No matter how a manufacturer tries to transform a base vehicle into a "sports car", I don't know if it could ever end up being a truesports car.

In my own mind, a vehicle must be built from the ground up (with attention to size and weight) to be a sports car. Most will only have 2 seats, and if a sports car does have a backseat, it wouldn't be usable by adults (i.e. a 911). And even if a manufacturer removes the backseats for a special edition, lightweight model, it's still doesn't transform a regular vehicle into a sports car, not in my mind...because it wasn't built from the ground up that way. It's just a model with seats, sound deadening, and more removed to save weight from a base model which was certainly not a sports car.

Neither do speed and handling dictate whether a car is a sports car. Just because an M5 CS is an amazing accomplishment with an outstanding Ring time, it has 4 seats so it can't be a sports car. Plus, it's just too big and heavy (even with weight shed), and isolated, to be considered anything near a sports car.

Conversely, a slow Miata, an "average" Audi TT, and even a tourer-like BMW Z4 all fit the definition of a sports car to me, and I don't want any of these cars. LOL

Thus, IMO, a quick list of today's sports cars would be:
[COLOR="Blue"]Corvette
911
Boxster/Cayman
Miata
Z4 (technically, by definition)
R8
Audi TT
2-seat Lambos
2-seat Ferraris
2-seat [...]

I hear you, but I feel like the e30 and e39 (both manuals) were sports cars in the feels department. I don’t think it has quite as much to do with the number of doors or seats (for me) as it does with the weight and dimensions. Obviously you need a good setup (drivetrain, suspension, etc)… but I genuinely felt that the e39 I drove racing around the streets of Boston was a sports car. Maybe by the literal definition it was not, but it felt like it and my memory tells me it was. That was 20 years ago though so who knows.

I wonder about the manual m2 feels like an early 2000 BMW 3?

I want to try one.

Great convo… really enjoyed the thread and seeing how other’s opinions of “what is a sports car” met with mine!

Thnx.

[DO444]

Originally Posted by fanofbmwe46

Last year I traded in my F80 for a brand new 2022 base 718 cayman 6spd. I figured I would have just as much fun in a precision oriented 2 seater drivers car in the 718 Porsche even though it would be slower than the BMW.

Boy was I wrong. The 718 has some great qualities (steering, gearbox, clutch feel), but otherwise it’s uninspiring and extremely slow. It felt slower than my 4 cyl SUVs. The exhaust sound was ok from the outside but the exhaust/engine sound on the inside was a big let down. I also quickly realized how impractical the car is. I have two young kids and I felt bad never being able to take them anywhere in it.

Overall the 718 just lacked power as the main thrill factor. BMW M cars are just brutal with power and so much fun.

My G80 arrives in a month and I can’t wait to break it in. Sold the 718 to Carvana for a what paid for it with 2500 miles on it.

Sorry to hear that.
I’ve enjoyed mine although I agree with you on some points. It is a slower car for sure, but not a slow car by any means. It doesn’t have the torque of an M car and doesn’t produce that kick in the pants acceleration, but it’s not a slow car imo, even the base.

I think it’s a lot of fun, at more regular speeds. (0-90). You gotta work to keep it above 2500rpm, but that’s part of the charm, managing it. Sound is what it is, loud mostly. It’s a gruff sound and you like it or you don’t. I don’t hate it.

I wouldn’t want to only own a cayman either. That’s not a good situation for a family man. The 718 is a car you drive (probably alone a lot of the time) just to drive it, not really practical although it actually does have terrific trunk and frunk space for a Porsche.

I’m sure you made someone else very happy as they are kinda hard to find!

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by DO444

I hear you, but I feel like the e30 and e39 (both manuals) were sports cars in the feels department. I don’t think it has quite as much to do with the number of doors or seats (for me) as it does with the weight and dimensions. Obviously you need a good setup (drivetrain, suspension, etc)… but I genuinely felt that the e39 I drove racing around the streets of Boston was a sports car. Maybe by the literal definition it was not, but it felt like it and my memory tells me it was. That was 20 years ago though so who knows.

I get what you're saying. And I kind of agree with you in some respect, but once you start injecting "feel" into it, that opens the door for a lot of cars that may "feel" analog and simplistic (with less focus on luxury and electronics, and more on lightness and agility). So I rule out the E30 as well, as analog as it was. It simply wasn't built from the ground up that way, so it still made a few too many compromises.

And the E39???? Come on, man. That's just nostalgia talking. That car was just way too big, and since it's a luxury sedan, the experience was too muted as well.

Go drive that E39 today and tell me how it "feels".

I wonder about the manual m2 feels like an early 2000 BMW 3?

It does, and it's much faster and has wayyy more grip. But again, the M2 is based on a fairly basic 2-series. So it's simply a fast, hardcore version of a basic model. And it's a really good car, and enough for most...but not a sports car. Plus, it has a real backseat (so not quite tidy enough).

Great convo… really enjoyed the thread and seeing how other’s opinions of “what is a sports car” met with mine!

Thnx.

[DO444]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

Heresy!

[DO444]

Originally Posted by Psychos1s

This randomly showed up on my YT again. Figured it was fitting for this thread even though it's a year old. It must have came back up because of my research before my original post above.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=1ptvpPkVVao&feature=shares

Cool vid!
It wasn’t random though, our phones listen and read what we write and say and then suggest things to us in various places based on that info.

I see it all the time now.
I can have a conversation with my wife about something and without fail, there’s advertising for that thing we were talking about showing up in google ads.

[DO444]

Originally Posted by Forzanerazzurri

To the OP, I would also suggest watching some of the videos on the M YouTube channel that goes through the engineering of the M3. Yeah some of it is just marketing but it's really well done and explains a lot of what went into the engineering of the car.
Things like the engine components, chassis details, cooling systems, brakes, aero, suspension components and even the work that goes into something as simple as the driveshaft are all what you would classify as "sports car".
There is a ton of engineering that goes into these cars well above and beyond what a regular sedan or even a luxury sedan would typically have.
I mean what do you think you are paying for when you pay 3x the price of a Camry for this thing. If I was an engineer reading this thread I would either laugh or cry.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL...5Is94c-8eDGCVv

They are absolutely great and amazing cars, no doubt. Maybe they better fit into GT cars?

It’s not a typical sedan, it’s a super sedan!

[or0b0to]

I cross shopped an M4CX and a 718 GTS

At first I was leaning towards the M4, and I had an allocation lined up, but when it flipped to a MY24 and ID8 I decided to pass on it because I prefer a more analog interior to a car (and I own a Tesla M3LR).

I think a lot of the points made in this thread are pretty accurate.

The M4 felt just like my old 435, a great sporty luxury coupe.

When I test drove the GTS though, man, what a different experience, and I personally love the older interior. It's just enough tech to get everything I'd want in a DD and no more.

I ended up getting an allocation for a GTS 4.0 and went with that instead.

Having an F-150, the Tesla, and my wife's SUV it's perfectly acceptable for me to have a dedicated 2 seater, and it being the end of the ICE Cayman/Boxsters makes it feel a little more special.

I'll probably still end up with a 4 series at some point down the road, maybe when it's at the end of it's lifecycle after any upgrades/refreshes happen.

As for what would be/is faster around a track... the older I get the more I appreciate that it's not necessarily where you finish, but it's how you got there that really makes the ride... and that applies to cars too.

[Allerum]

A lot of people are stuck on feels and size. I still categorically disagree, if your feel good car is getting crushed on lap times it's less sports car and more collectors car to me. It becomes like a classic car whose purpose is enjoying the drive.

I want to be on the edge of physics and use precise engineering to get there, this is a sports car for me. Can you dance it on the edge? But I don't need only feelings as you also need precision and predictability. For example At this corner I know I can do this speed again and cut the line a bit. But I am not relying on feelings, they help but I keep track of mathematical speed for the corner and relying on audible queues from tires as well as feels. If the car is predictable then I can guess what it's going to do and see if I am right.

But if it's a little numb in steering but the chassis is talking through the tires that's fine. Would I like both? Sure but if I can trust the car to figure things out and drop my time, then that's good engineering.

[Juanero]

regardless of category, we are living in a great time in which m3's have more power than some 911s!