[adc]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

The Carrera T is a special car. It's got that Porsche secret sauce built into the tuning of the car. It's down on power, but that can be solved with a tune. But how they manage to make it feel so alive even compared to a Carrera or Carrera S is just divine.

Indeed. I have sufficient driving time in one on the street for it to have become an object of desire. With a TPC DSC Sport controller running a secret suspension tune, it is mind blowing. For a track guy, this is like catnip… and on the street even better.

[hufington]

Great write-up. That's how a true M car should feel and how it should make you feel like. I owned the original M3 as my first car back in the days and it is very interesting to see how this car evolved throughout the years and generations.
Can't stop wondering if BMW would ever dare to offer driving the new XM at the M School since they claim it to be the top of the line M vehicle?

[G30 B58]

Thank you.

Originally Posted by MichaelB1969

NOTE: Driving on a track is always a good reminder for me that there is simply ZERO chance that I could safely test the limits of a car like this on the street. For anyone that is only going to drive on the street that is worried about the relatively minor differences in power between a base and competition or a manual or automatic so that they can eek out every last drop of performance is kidding themselves. It doesn't matter...until you get on a track. If you feel otherwise, I'd assume you've never actually driven a car like this on the track near the limit, or you are either insane or totally irresponsible, or both. Sure, getting a comp and x-drive will help you beat other cars in a race from one stoplight to another, but that's not performance driving. That's more about stroking someone's ego.

[baron95]

Originally Posted by MichaelB1969

But since I am not going to track the car,.....

OP, if you had so much fun on track, why do you say you will not track your car? There are many safe, affordable and fun options from NASA HPDE to car control clinics to autocross. For HPDE there is insurance available if you are worried and it is a safe and fun environment.

A shame to own such a great sports car, and not take to the occasional track day, particularly since you liked the experience.

[micvite]

Originally Posted by baron95

OP, if you had so much fun on track, why do you say you will not track your car? There are many safe, affordable and fun options from NASA HPDE to car control clinics to autocross. For HPDE there is insurance available if you are worried and it is a safe and fun environment.

A shame to own such a great sports car, and not take to the occasional track day, particularly since you liked the experience.

I'm more worried about rock chips and cracked windshields lol... im also getting frozen paint on mine so even more to worry about or someone crashing into me. Just not worth the risk, I'd rather pay to go abuse bmws or porsches or whoevers cars then have to deal with mine getting totalled or worse, getting damaged.

[cubanbimmer3]

Originally Posted by micvite

I'm more worried about rock chips and cracked windshields lol... im also getting frozen paint on mine so even more to worry about or someone crashing into me. Just not worth the risk, I'd rather pay to go abuse bmws or porsches or whoevers cars then have to deal with mine getting totalled or worse, getting damaged.

I feel exactly the same way! I would love to track my car, but as my daily, it stresses me out too much.

[G30 B58]

Originally Posted by baron95

OP, if you had so much fun on track, why do you say you will not track your car? There are many safe, affordable and fun options from NASA HPDE to car control clinics to autocross. For HPDE there is insurance available if you are worried and it is a safe and fun environment.

A shame to own such a great sports car, and not take to the occasional track day, particularly since you liked the experience.

Sounds like we have a NASA NE member here?

Originally Posted by micvite

I'm more worried about rock chips and cracked windshields lol... im also getting frozen paint on mine so even more to worry about or someone crashing into me. Just not worth the risk, I'd rather pay to go abuse bmws or porsches or whoevers cars then have to deal with mine getting totalled or worse, getting damaged.

To be honest, you have a better chance of any of those things happening to you on your drive to and from the track than at the track.

[baron95]

Originally Posted by micvite

I'm more worried about rock chips and cracked windshields lol... im also getting frozen paint on mine so even more to worry about or someone crashing into me. Just not worth the risk, I'd rather pay to go abuse bmws or porsches or whoevers cars then have to deal with mine getting totalled or worse, getting damaged.

Understand and respect the sentiment.

From personal experience tracking cars for years, all the damage (from rocks to windshield, to bent wheels on potholes, to stupid people backing into you at parking lots) have been on the road, and zero at the track, other the rubber marks on the paint from tire marbles that can be easily cleaned up.

In any event - enjoy your new BMW when it arrives and have fun at the organized track events - they certainly can be fun as well.

[D2V]

Anyone want to drive the M3 and M4 at Indy with us on September 9th? This is a BMW Performance Center program, but for BMW CCA ///M Chapter members on the 9th. Sign up at this link:

http://msreg.com/2023MIntensiveIndy

[Humdizzle]

Originally Posted by veenut28

Interesting take on the M2 which seems to be catching a little shade here. I think it’s telling that this is based on track performance. To me there’s no comparison between the G8x and F87 on track - the G cars feel more planted and precise and are much better track weapons if you’re chasing lap times. That “squirrelly” feeling of the M2 is what it makes a dicier proposition on track but so, so much more fun on the street. As you mentioned, you never feel like you’re close to the limit with the G8x on the road but the M2 gets bouncy even at sane road speed. I think it’s what’s led some reviewers to deride the G8x as sterile or in some cases, boring.

Totally agree. Just two different cars. The m2 is more lively and the g8x is the buttoned down grown up. The dct is more snappy and engaging while the zf8 is smoother. My experience with the zf8 was that it's great when you leave it in 'D' but has very laggy downshifts with the paddles. Probably why all the supercars brands still use a dct.

[MichaelB1969]

Originally Posted by baron95

OP, if you had so much fun on track, why do you say you will not track your car? There are many safe, affordable and fun options from NASA HPDE to car control clinics to autocross. For HPDE there is insurance available if you are worried and it is a safe and fun environment.

A shame to own such a great sports car, and not take to the occasional track day, particularly since you liked the experience.

I hear ya! I guess I don't want to beat on my daily driver and rip through very expensive brakes and tires at a frantic pace. That said, tracking is a blast. Once I retire, if I don't end up buying another boat, I'd love to buy a Mazda spec car or something like that and have a dedicated track car.

[MichaelB1969]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

Totally agree. Just two different cars. The m2 is more lively and the g8x is the buttoned down grown up. The dct is more snappy and engaging while the zf8 is smoother. My experience with the zf8 was that it's great when you leave it in 'D' but has very laggy downshifts with the paddles. Probably why all the supercars brands still use a dct.

Agree 100%. Keeping it in D it just does it's job and is transparent (in a good way). When you try to shift it is when you notice it isn't quite as immediate as a DCT. The slight lag of the ZF in terms of actual performance is far less of an issue than the slightly disconnected "feel".

With a DCT, there is a strong machine to human connection. You flick the paddle and it shifts NOW (especially the Porsche PDK). With the ZF, it's as if you are telling it to shift, then it thinks for a moment, then shifts. This still likely happens in milliseconds, but even the slight delay, especially on downshifts, is noticeable enough to the point where it feels less connected to you than the DCT. Again, performance-wise probably doesn't matter a whole lot.

[Vishal50028]

How were the continentals? Good alternative to ps4s?

[element56]

I ran a goPro Max360 just under the mirror for the entire two days. I used a RAM suction mount, a 10’ long usb cable and had a 10kma battery in the door pocket to make sure the battery lasted all day. I would start the recoding just before pulling out of the staging area and would leave it running the entire session. I then did editing and composting in DaVinci Resolve to get forward and rear views in a single composition.

I had an absolute blast. Was 3rd fastest day one by less than 0.1 due to a miss shift after launch in the autocross and 2nd fastest on day two.

previous driver popped it into manual mode and I failed to see that on launch. 🤪

https://youtu.be/ZTcwCfxF10Y

[MichaelB1969]

Originally Posted by Vishal50028

How were the continentals? Good alternative to ps4s?

I haven't driven on the PS4S, although I of course hear all the accolades. So not a comparison per se, but I was mightily impressed with the Continentals. Lots of grip!

Note that I put Continentals on the VW GTI that was my prior daily driver, and loved them.

Hopefully I find my car wearing Michelins when it is finally delivered so I can compare.

[Obbenchill]

Originally Posted by MichaelB1969

Sorry, long post, lots of thoughts...

I just got back from doing the BMW 2-day M School down in Thermal, CA. What a great experience, and program! Got a chance to drive the M4cx, as well as the M5cx, on track. Also drove the M2 on a shorter track, more of an autocross setup.

The M4 was a ton of fun on the track. It was riding on Continental tires, although not sure which ones, as they are the sponsor for the M School. Even though they are pretty much identical performance-wise, I was hoping to drive an M3 since that is what I have on order, but the students all drove M4s. We did do some hot laps with the instructors, who were driving M3s for whatever reason.

The G8X was everything I hoped it would be. Fast, comfortable, sounded great, and most importantly, it was really fun to drive and I felt connected to the car in the sense that I felt like it was highly responsive to my inputs, predictable, and it didn't surprise (or bite) me. I never felt like I was fighting the car to do what I wanted it to do. And it felt really balanced.

On one stretch, I accelerated to ~125mph and hammered the brakes just before a left-hand sweeper. I used trail braking going into the sweeper. If I went in too hot the response from the car was progressive and predictable, and it was really easy to bring it back in line. Note that we were driving in Sport Plus and Track mode, with DSC still active. DSC allowed for some slip and never felt intrusive (in line with what this video seems to show). Only when I made a few mistakes did I really sense it kicking in. In fact, when we did hot laps with the instructors, where they are able to get significantly more performance out of the cars than us students, they too were driving with DSC on (except for the last hot lap before the end of the program, where they intentionally drifted around the track at high-speeds). Bottom line is you can drive the car very, very fast around a track with DSC on, so not sure why anyone would feel the need to turn it off on the street (unless they wanted to drift, but even then, I believe you can do that in MDM with DSC on).

Turn in was incredibly sharp. The car feels light and agile for a relatively heavy car. I felt like I could put the car exactly where I wanted to. Whether or not the line I took was the right one or not, that's something different. The instructors had very different driving styles. One instructor was fast but really smooth. Another instructor turned into corners harder than I realized the car was even capable of. I was in the backseat taking video and watching it after the fact you can see just how much I was flying around in the backseat when the instructor turned aggressively into corners. Here is the video. The front end just feels very alive and eager to turn, which makes it fun.

Out of the 16 students, I got the 2nd fastest time in the timed autocross on day 1. Then on day two I laid down a respectable time and tried to improve it from there. But I wasn't getting any faster, and realized I needed to actually slow down in a few spots to get faster as I ended up going in too hot and understeering, screwing up my line for the next section of the course. It was really frustrating because I knew exactly what I needed to do, and how to do it, but with the adrenaline going and my competitive juices flowing, I simply didn't do it! So I ended up with the 5th or 6th best time on day 2, which was disappointing as I know I could have improved my times if my body listened to my brain. Did I mention I am competitive? Haha. I should note that I've done the Skip Barber 2-day High Performance Driving program (which I don't think is offered anymore) before, while this was the first such program for most of the students.

Here are some other takeaways:

Seats: All the cars had the M Sport Seats, and not the carbon buckets, which was surprising. I asked an instructor why, and he said "let's just say that they don't fit some of our more rotund students very well". In any case, driving with the M Sport Seats was great, as that is what I ordered. Given my size, I didn't find myself sliding around much. That said, there is zero doubt the carbon seats would have been my preference on the track. Since I am not likely going to track my own car, finding the M Sport Seats comfortable while also serving admirably during my track sessions made me even more confident I made the right choice for me. If I was going to track the car a lot, I might choose the carbon buckets. There were a few people there with smaller frames and one was in my group and he complained that he was moving around way too much in the seats. So if you have a smaller frame and want a seat that is really going to keep you firmly planted, you might want to choose the carbon buckets.

Performance: In an era where people get so overly obsessed with 0-60 times, I will say that the acceleration of the car was BY FAR the least exciting aspect. Cornering at high speeds and threshold braking were both far more exciting than accelerating. In fact, I drove the M4 and M5 and very, very quickly got used to the straight line speed. As we built up speed in the straights, all the adrenaline I felt was in anticipation of braking hard to setup the next corner, and maintaining the right racing line at speed.

NOTE: Driving on a track is always a good reminder for me that there is simply ZERO chance that I could safely test the limits of a car like this on the street. For anyone that is only going to drive on the street that is worried about the relatively minor differences in power between a base and competition or a manual or automatic so that they can eek out every last drop of performance is kidding themselves. It doesn't matter...until you get on a track. If you feel otherwise, I'd assume you've never actually driven a car like this on the track near the limit, or you are either insane or totally irresponsible, or both. Sure, getting a comp and x-drive will help you beat other cars in a race from one stoplight to another, but that's not performance driving. That's more about stroking someone's ego.

Transmission: I ordered a manual, and I am so glad I did. However, I went into this thinking I'd only even consider getting an automatic if it was a dual-clutch versus a true automatic with a torque converter. The M2s we drove had dual-clutch transmissions while the M4s had the ZF 8-speed. And despite what I thought going into this, I actually preferred the ZF 8-speed. It was great! Sure, it wasn't as snappy as the dual-clutch, especially on the downshifts. However, it was a whole lot smoother, and I never felt like it let me down on the track. I just kept it in drive actually and I never even thought twice about it. Instead, I just focused on my throttle inputs, braking and racing line. Driving the M2 with the dual-clutch from the BMW Performance Center to the track versus the M4, it was apparent how much smoother and in my opinion more livable the ZF unit would be in day to day use. So bottom line is that for the G8X on track, I would GREATLY prefer the ZF unit to the manual transmission. That way, you can focus on other things and keep both hands on the wheel. But since I am not going to track the car, I am still looking forward to the increased engagement with the manual, which in my opinion makes all drives more fun (I realize not everyone shares this opinion, which is fine, different strokes for different folks).

Brakes: Just awesome. They all had the carbon ceramics, and they were really impressive. Zero fade. Not much else to say. Although one interesting thing came up. Some of the drivers felt the rear of their cars oscillating to one side then the other under very hard braking. This was more evident in the M5s vs M4s. However, the instructor said it was because the student's were gripping the steering wheel too tight, and when they hammer the brakes, they were unknowingly moving the wheel itself. I thought that was interesting. They recommended a much lighter grip on the wheel. FWIW, the M2s had steel brakes and they also felt very strong.

Steering wheel: I always felt like the wheel on my 911 Carrera T wasn't chunky enough for my liking. Probably because I have large hands. I know some have said that the G8X wheel is a little too chunky, but I found it to be perfect. They preached the 9 and 3 position, and that wheel fit my hands like a glove. Loved it.

Sound system: the S58 sounded pretty sweet to me! Not as nice as the M5 engine, but still sounded good.

Instrument panel: I found the speedo and tach on the digital display just weird and gimmicky. Really wish they offered other modes, such as an option for one giant round tach in the middle. Most of the cars had the HUD, and I tracked a few with it. The odd thing was that I literally forgot it was there during my track sessions. As in, if someone asked me if I looked at the HUD to get my speed in certain sections, I would have said "what HUD"? I guess your brain just gets focused on other things. At least mine did.

Colors: got a chance to see a bunch of G8X colors. Didn't see the color I ordered (Skyscraper Grey) on an M3 or M4, but did see it on an M5 and loved it. The color that really popped for me was IOMG. Still wouldn't have ordered it because I wanted something a bit more conservative, but that color was made for the G8X. Great looking green! Even though they are super popular, maybe too much so, the Brooklyn Grey looked great too.

Comparison to M5 and M2: The M5 was great, and was very capable on the track. But you felt its weight, and I didn't find it nearly as engaging as the M4 or M2. As a touring car capable of ballistic speeds, the M5 is superb, but it was forgettable to me on the track. I wanted to get back into the M4. Tossing around the M2 (previous gen) on the short track was a hoot, but it felt "squirrely" to me. It didn't feel nearly as composed as the M4. I suppose that is why some people love it, and again, it was fun on the short track for me, but I preferred the more buttoned down feel of the M4. FWIW, I did ask 3 of the instructors which their favorite car is, and they all said the M3. It's like a good book like The Count of Monte Cristo that as an audiobook you can visit this page and listen to.

Comparison to my 911 Carrera T: in all fairness, I never drove my 911 on track, so can't fully compare. And obviously they are very different cars with different missions. That said, people often compare them, so figured I'd at least mention it. My take is that that the Porsche "felt" better. Even off the track, I felt more connected to the driving experience. Better steering feel, felt more nimble, more communication through the chassis, better shifter, engine sounded better (although was not as powerful), etc. However, I only fully appreciated these things when I was driving aggressively on twisty roads (again, NOT like I'd drive on a track, but within reasonable safety margins), which was maybe 2% of the time. While the M3/4 might give a bit away in terms of driving dynamics and overall engagement, it is still really fun to drive and offers incredible performance while being much more comfortable and practical as a daily driver (which is essentially the mission of the car, to do many things well).

Food: Gotta say, I am a picky eater, and people had said the food served at the BMW performance center was good. I was skeptical, but I was proven wrong. They served lunch both days and dinner the first night, and the quality of the food was very high! Even the wine selection was solid (Daou).

Thermal Club: The place is absolutely bonkers. There are $6M homes with 3,500 square foot air-conditioned garages alongside the track. Indy cars practice there. Seeing a Porsche GT3 there is like seeing a Camry on public roads, they are everywhere. If you haven't checked it out, look at their site. Just a crazy wonderland for racers. If you have $1.8M lying around, there is an available lot for sale! You still need to build a home and pay HOA fees on top of that though.

Anyways, it was a really fun 2 days. Highly recommended!

Sounds like you had a great day and an invaluable experience, good for you. I am still just in the process of buying my ticket to m school.