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      03-22-2023, 02:38 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by nsquared View Post
Or its 503 underrated and they had to rate it better so now they are saying its 525 haha.
This was my initial thought too! All results from a performance standpoint and real dyno numbers points to the car making over 503hp. So technically they could increase the hp without touching anything but documentation and promotional material.
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      03-22-2023, 05:09 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by RugbyBro View Post
That's what it comes down to whether people want to admit it or not.

Stock for stock they are better set up cars.
I agree. Better set up cars for a purpose. It’s a track ready version of the already track ready m3 base and comp.

If you follow the posts about the cs, some people have said, garage queen, a lot of others said daily driver. Almost none of them said it’ll be a track car.

So is the setup really better to daily drive? Of course not.

So basically they just want a CS, because the ego is real in the bmw world so they can say “yeah I have a CS, which is a better m3 than your normal competition or base.”
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      03-22-2023, 06:03 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP View Post
I agree. Better set up cars for a purpose. It’s a track ready version of the already track ready m3 base and comp.

If you follow the posts about the cs, some people have said, garage queen, a lot of others said daily driver. Almost none of them said it’ll be a track car.

So is the setup really better to daily drive? Of course not.

So basically they just want a CS, because the ego is real in the bmw world so they can say “yeah I have a CS, which is a better m3 than your normal competition or base.”
F8X CS were all much better damped than their non-CS counterparts which in turn made them better daily drivers IMO. Would not be surprised if G8X CS is the same. I don't know that "track-ready" is the right term for CSs - I would say they're more track optimized for a stock car. BMW still doesn't offer basic "track-ready" features like camber adjustment...

You are right tho, people buy them because of the badge. I know I did for nearly the same as what ZCPs were going for at the time and have since proceeded to undo the primary thing that makes a CS what it is (suspension)

Matt Farah said it best about M5CS (but this applies to CS models in general): "Who buys a M5, even a M5CS, to not use as their everyday car? This is an everyday car, like just admit it. It is. You're not buying a 4000lb sedan just to go to track days... maybe you'll do a track day... but it's not just for track days."

Replace M5 above with M3 and it still holds very true.
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      03-22-2023, 06:43 PM   #114
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Damn I’m guilty of that, m3 CS is the best daily driver car I ever have. It’s can do it all for me
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      03-22-2023, 07:56 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by RugbyBro View Post
F8X CS were all much better damped than their non-CS counterparts which in turn made them better daily drivers IMO. Would not be surprised if G8X CS is the same. I don't know that "track-ready" is the right term for CSs - I would say they're more track optimized for a stock car. BMW still doesn't offer basic "track-ready" features like camber adjustment...

You are right tho, people buy them because of the badge. I know I did for nearly the same as what ZCPs were going for at the time and have since proceeded to undo the primary thing that makes a CS what it is (suspension)

Matt Farah said it best about M5CS (but this applies to CS models in general): "Who buys a M5, even a M5CS, to not use as their everyday car? This is an everyday car, like just admit it. It is. You're not buying a 4000lb sedan just to go to track days... maybe you'll do a track day... but it's not just for track days."

Replace M5 above with M3 and it still holds very true.
All cars are heavy. Even the new corvette z06 that's GM's most capable track car ever weighs 3600+lbs.

You're right you don't buy a 4000lbs sedan to go to the track. So why do people need a CS? Just the extra power? Minor weight reduction? Is the CS just an M3 version of the CSL? I do agree BMW hasn't made a true track car as their CSL ran only a 7:15 at the ring?

No one who buys these cars will ever come close to reaching the limits on a track. Which would make an even worse argument when talking about daily driving. Is that price increase for the CS worthwhile in the opinion of those buying said CS if they were just daily driving it?
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      03-22-2023, 08:15 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP View Post
All cars are heavy. Even the new corvette z06 that's GM's most capable track car ever weighs 3600+lbs.

You're right you don't buy a 4000lbs sedan to go to the track. So why do people need a CS? Just the extra power? Minor weight reduction? Is the CS just an M3 version of the CSL? I do agree BMW hasn't made a true track car as their CSL ran only a 7:15 at the ring?

No one who buys these cars will ever come close to reaching the limits on a track. Which would make an even worse argument when talking about daily driving. Is that price increase for the CS worthwhile in the opinion of those buying said CS if they were just daily driving it?
Yup that’s what I’m saying here - CSs are street first cars that are a lot of fun on DE days. People buy them for the badge and because there’s a measurable difference in the way they drive both objectively and subjectively. That includes their streetability - better damping translates to a better experience. If you want the best driving version of your M car that still has a full warranty it’s going to be a CS. Yeah it’s an annoying move and BMW sandbags the lesser models to make room for the CS but that’s the way they structure their range.

They aren’t track cars and if that was your goal a base model car is the best option since you’ll end up replacing all the “CS” bits for more fit-for-purpose parts anyway.
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      03-23-2023, 07:30 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by RugbyBro View Post
Yup that’s what I’m saying here - CSs are street first cars that are a lot of fun on DE days. People buy them for the badge and because there’s a measurable difference in the way they drive both objectively and subjectively. That includes their streetability - better damping translates to a better experience. If you want the best driving version of your M car that still has a full warranty it’s going to be a CS. Yeah it’s an annoying move and BMW sandbags the lesser models to make room for the CS but that’s the way they structure their range.

They aren’t track cars and if that was your goal a base model car is the best option since you’ll end up replacing all the “CS” bits for more fit-for-purpose parts anyway.

I don’t doubt the CS is a big improvement over a competition. I wouldn’t know first hand I never driven a CS new or previous generation.

But if that’s the case, bmw made the cs for the street?
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      03-23-2023, 07:32 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Psychos1s View Post
This was my initial thought too! All results from a performance standpoint and real dyno numbers points to the car making over 503hp. So technically they could increase the hp without touching anything but documentation and promotional material.
You guys are aware that's against German law, right? The engine has to be dyno tested to prove the numbers for emission regulations and later registration / tax purposes. There has to be a difference even if small...

If they did what you are saying, the German government would immediately reach out and ask where you falsifying engine numbers? I think with the VW fiasco of years past, these are not games any manufacturer would want to play at this point.
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      03-23-2023, 10:49 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by r0wr View Post
Agreed, I misread. Point still stands though, used CS values don’t stand up $ for $. And a modded civic M3 can be modded to provide a better experience for the same money. Whether faster in a straight line or a track. You’re paying for the CS name, a little bit of fine tuning and weight savings, not a different car with better suspension, engine, etc.
You’re gonna say it’s cool-aid…

HP and fast lap times don’t make two cars equal. (Not for me.)

People like me chose a G80 6MT over a Comp AWD because I prioritize driver engagement over lap times.

Plenty of slower Porsche’s out there as well, but people buy those cars for more than lap times.

My 2016 F80 was made the year they were still using Carbon Fiber drive shafts. That’s not showing up on a performance stat sheet, but I can appreciate that material and engineering

The new CS is more than HP increase even if someone builds a faster 335i.
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      03-23-2023, 11:33 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP View Post
No one who buys these cars will ever come close to reaching the limits on a track. Which would make an even worse argument when talking about daily driving. Is that price increase for the CS worthwhile in the opinion of those buying said CS if they were just daily driving it?
Speak for yourself, please.

Regarding the CS as a daily driver (I plan to make it my daily driver, right now I have a Z4 M40i and a Trackhawk for that purpose): It is a stealthy daily driver , very important here in Germany because I park the car in front of my business.
I ran a few numbers and the real price difference between a M3 Competition xDrive and the M3 CS is around 25k EUR.

For the extra 25k EUR, I get:
1. 40 hp more power without warranty issues
2. Gearbox "tune" without warranty issues
3. M GmbH developed/tested new chassis which is very very hard to beat (street legal)
4. Carbon bonnet
5. CS specific interior with CS insignia and carbon middle console
6. M GmbH developed Titanium exhaust
7. Bronze wheels
8. Yellow icon daytime running lights

Everything with 100% warranty and TÜV and no issues with BMW, authorities or whatever.

Now we can discuss if all these things are worth 25k EUR but in my opinion, they will make a difference in resale value at some point. Right now, the used car markets are overheated and people are paying crazy prices but only two years or so ago, things looked different, at least here in Germany.

In the end, it makes a HUGE difference for ME if I have a tuned car or an ORIGINAL M developed car.
I had a tuned 996 Turbo RS-Tuning, a 997 Turbo RUF 550 and a Shelby GT500 with over 765 hp, McLeod clutch/bigger intercooler/etc. but I never really liked tuned cars for various reasons.

I don't know how much the real price difference between a M3 Comp xDrive and a M3 CS is in the US but for ME, 25k EUR more aren't really a lot in my opinion.

Last edited by RTC3000; 03-23-2023 at 11:46 AM..
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      03-23-2023, 12:33 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
You guys are aware that's against German law, right? The engine has to be dyno tested to prove the numbers for emission regulations and later registration / tax purposes. There has to be a difference even if small...

If they did what you are saying, the German government would immediately reach out and ask where you falsifying engine numbers? I think with the VW fiasco of years past, these are not games any manufacturer would want to play at this point.
Oh I know. I didn't mean it literally. I should have added that at the end of my post.
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      03-23-2023, 12:54 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by RTC3000 View Post
Speak for yourself, please.

Regarding the CS as a daily driver (I plan to make it my daily driver, right now I have a Z4 M40i and a Trackhawk for that purpose): It is a stealthy daily driver , very important here in Germany because I park the car in front of my business.
I ran a few numbers and the real price difference between a M3 Competition xDrive and the M3 CS is around 25k EUR.

For the extra 25k EUR, I get:
1. 40 hp more power without warranty issues
2. Gearbox "tune" without warranty issues
3. M GmbH developed/tested new chassis which is very very hard to beat (street legal)
4. Carbon bonnet
5. CS specific interior with CS insignia and carbon middle console
6. M GmbH developed Titanium exhaust
7. Bronze wheels
8. Yellow icon daytime running lights

Everything with 100% warranty and TÜV and no issues with BMW, authorities or whatever.

Now we can discuss if all these things are worth 25k EUR but in my opinion, they will make a difference in resale value at some point. Right now, the used car markets are overheated and people are paying crazy prices but only two years or so ago, things looked different, at least here in Germany.

In the end, it makes a HUGE difference for ME if I have a tuned car or an ORIGINAL M developed car.
I had a tuned 996 Turbo RS-Tuning, a 997 Turbo RUF 550 and a Shelby GT500 with over 765 hp, McLeod clutch/bigger intercooler/etc. but I never really liked tuned cars for various reasons.

I don't know how much the real price difference between a M3 Comp xDrive and a M3 CS is in the US but for ME, 25k EUR more aren't really a lot in my opinion.

Some have more skills than another. If you’re not a season track person or a professional, imho you fall under a novice track driver. Or to the very least they should post their own PB of a particular lap time on a certain track and compare it to a professional driver on the same track with the same car. That should tell some story about being a good driver or not.

And I still fail to see how the above you mention makes it’s a better street car over a comp xdrive.

I guess if you’re going to modify it then yeah a more powerful version with a warranty is better. But driving dynamics on the street will be experienced?

If so, wouldn’t that type of driving be suited for the track?
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      03-23-2023, 01:49 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RugbyBro View Post
Yup that’s what I’m saying here - CSs are street first cars that are a lot of fun on DE days. People buy them for the badge and because there’s a measurable difference in the way they drive both objectively and subjectively. That includes their streetability - better damping translates to a better experience. If you want the best driving version of your M car that still has a full warranty it’s going to be a CS. Yeah it’s an annoying move and BMW sandbags the lesser models to make room for the CS but that’s the way they structure their range.

They aren’t track cars and if that was your goal a base model car is the best option since you’ll end up replacing all the “CS” bits for more fit-for-purpose parts anyway.
I’d argue that the M3/4 are great dual use cars, for the daily drive and the track. That has been the ethos of the M3(/4) since its inception. That ethos is what got me in an M3 back in 2001 and kept me coming back for 20 years because it perfectly fit my personal use case. I’d say the CS simply moves to compromise needle slightly more towards track performance, but they still remain great daily drivers.
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      03-23-2023, 01:54 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP View Post
I don’t doubt the CS is a big improvement over a competition. I wouldn’t know first hand I never driven a CS new or previous generation.

But if that’s the case, bmw made the cs for the street?
Yes exactly! Big improvement may be an overstatement as the base cars are already very good - just a noticeable improvement that, at least in F Chassis cars (and seemingly in Gs as well), introduced much needed compliance and improved damping - making it more confident and comfortable than their base equivalents. G chassis probably won't have quite as stark of a difference as BMW learned from the F8X CSs how to tune an OE suspension.

These are all street first cars, no matter how they market them. They went out of their way to emphasize that the G82 CSL was a street first machine more than likely because F82 GTS was a proper "track-ready" product that was skewered by a car & journalist community that didn't really want a factory track tool. The GTS was severely misunderstood at launch but was and still remains a serious track-day weapon. But I imagine BMW wants to avoid a fiasco like that at all costs.
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      03-23-2023, 03:30 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I’d argue that the M3/4 are great dual use cars, for the daily drive and the track. That has been the ethos of the M3(/4) since its inception. That ethos is what got me in an M3 back in 2001 and kept me coming back for 20 years because it perfectly fit my personal use case. I’d say the CS simply moves to compromise needle slightly more towards track performance, but they still remain great daily drivers.
Agree with this 100% - when I say track ready im thinking more F82 GTS or similar products from other manufacturers. I've seen you mention it here before, but I think the CS and CSL are more akin to a 911 GTS than they are a GT3.
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      03-23-2023, 06:41 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by RugbyBro View Post
Agree with this 100% - when I say track ready im thinking more F82 GTS or similar products from other manufacturers. I've seen you mention it here before, but I think the CS and CSL are more akin to a 911 GTS than they are a GT3.
Yes, agreed. I’ve made the same point in many other threads: the M4CSL is Carrera-GTS Lightweight equivalent while the M3CS is Carrera4-GTS equivalent.

BMW fumbled when they positioned the M4GTS as a competitor to the 911GT3. At least they properly positioned the G8X CS/CSL.
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      03-23-2023, 07:04 PM   #127
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Don’t do Dinan- they are garbage. I run Carbahn piggyback now and they offer a trade up for their stage 1 and 2 flash coming next month. They handle the Femto unlock as well.

Carbahn also has a front mount heat exchanger and exhaust hitting market next month as well. I’ve been running Steve Dinan stuff for 15+ years and never had issues. Steve Dinan owns Carbahn.

Another thing Carbahn is doing is offering extended warranties for modded cars. Tuning, bolt-ons, everything. All covered. Cheaper than oem coverage. Lots coming in the next few months I’m told
I had a piggy on my F80 M3 and promised myself I’d never do it again…but since I picked up my 2023 G80CX last fall, I’ve almost pulled the trigger on another piggy. I sure hope a Carbahn flash is actually only a few months away.
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      03-24-2023, 07:56 PM   #128
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Same boat man. Piggy on my f80. Flashed both my b9 s4 and b9 rs5 and swore to never do piggy’s! But here I am with Carbahn only because of the trade up credit program.
Similar car history…I had a b7 RS4 and a b8 RS5, both NA V8s, so lots of mods, but not much benefit in tune. I had a flash tune on my GTR though and bolt-ons with flex-fuel created a very fun car. I’m absolutely in on a Carbahn tune. Hoping soon.
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