[Allerum]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

No one said that the BMW Motorsport engineers aren't fantastic at what they do. They can get the most out of a base model, more than most. And at a somewhat affordable cost. Hec, the E9Xs and the F8Xs are true bargains today for their level of thrills and performance.

But it doesn't make it a sports car.

If the car is in motorsports and competing by definition is a sports car which is car designed for motorsports making it a sports car.

It doesn't need to feel sporty if it is good at motorsports. How it feels is a bonus not the definition.

And that definition is lap times.

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by Allerum

If the car is in motorsports and competing by definition is a sports car which is car designed for motorsports making it a sports car.

It doesn't need to feel sporty if it is good at motorsports. How it feels is a bonus not the definition.

And that definition is lap times.

I like this. If the car races in Motorsports, and thus built and designed to compete in Motorsports, then it's basically a race car, for the street.

This also makes sense to me.

[John4C]

Originally Posted by Flying05

I had to stop reading after realizing I kept reading the same paragraph over and over saying the same thing just in a different order. Not sure what the second half of the post read, but I’m guessing the exact same thing in the first half.

It was more of the same.


Is anyone really surprised by this though? I feel like the answer is of course. It’s a 4 door family sedan. That doesn’t make it less enjoyable but it’s heavy AF and the steering feel is terrible. It’s not a sports car at all. To be clear I really like my g80 but let’s be honest about what it is.

[Allerum]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

I like this. If the car races in Motorsports, and thus built and designed to compete in Motorsports, then it's basically a race car, for the street.

This also makes sense to me.

I am including Autocross/HPDE is the definition of "motorsports" as in sports done with motors for competition. So if you are taking your car into a competition of some sort then that is motorsports.

And if you car was designed to produce results in motorsports then its a sports car.

The original definition of sports car was a two seat roadster circa 1950s and if had a roof then it was a grand tourer full stop. This definition I think is outdated.

So IMO a modern day interpretation is a car designed to compete in motorsports of any kind is a sports car.

[Jim B]

The G82 is more of a German muscle car than a sports car. The Z4 and Toyota A90 Supra are sports cars.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Originally Posted by Jim B

The G82 is more of a German muscle car than a sports car. The Z4 and Toyota A90 Supra are sports cars.

Yeah like this one. This is a good one, mid-size M4C with a big engine Muscle car. Two seat Z4 roadster, Classic sports car. Pretty much how I use them.

[Turbodu07]

Originally Posted by Jackie Chiles

The current M3 is a four door sedan. My grandma has a sedan.

If you want a sports car get an M4.


Sorry. I can’t help myself.

That is some funny shit right there! I always told everyone when I owned a Vette that if it holds more than two people, it's not a sports car, it's a family car.

That is, until I bought the M3....but damn, it's hard for me to say a four door sedan is a sports car.

I just call it a Beast, not a true sports car because....well, it has four doors and can seat 5 people which by definition to me is a family car that hauls ass.

I also say by my definition; any car that you mash the throttle to the floor and hit the brakes until they fade away on a race track, is a race car. I've raced a Toyota, Datsun and Honda cars that were to me, a family car as well. Then I raced a true sports car with the Vette!

[Jackie Chiles]

Originally Posted by Turbodu07

That is some funny shit right there! I always told everyone when I owned a Vette that if it holds more than two people, it's not a sports car, it's a family car.

That is, until I bought the M3....but damn, it's hard for me to say a four door sedan is a sports car.

I just call it a Beast, not a true sports car because....well, it has four doors and can seat 5 people which by definition to me is a family car that hauls ass.

I also say by my definition; any car that you mash the throttle to the floor and hit the brakes until they fade away on a race track, is a race car. I've raced a Toyota, Datsun and Honda cars that were to me, a family car as well. Then I raced a true sports car with the Vette!

Datsun? I autocrossed a 510. Very cool little car!

And I agree. If its fun to drive fast who cares if its a sports car? My '67 Mini Cooper S was a prime example of that. The 510 also.

[Ginster6]

OMG. with test drove a 991.2 over the weekend. and i luz my g80 m3 manual. and very capable on the track... but it not sport car. at the backroad.. during the test drive I had more confidence with the 991 (throttle more) than m3 (brakes more). BTW you can feel the extra 100hp that m3 over 991.2.

Not looking to sell m3 , but an addition.

[DO444]

Originally Posted by Jim B

The G82 is more of a German muscle car than a sports car. The Z4 and Toyota A90 Supra are sports cars.

I agree, it does feel like a muscle car.

[secretariat]

Originally Posted by wasya152

I agree with the post. I think it's about perspective. A lot of people either don't have it and just don't know what a fun car could feel like, don't drive hard enough to know, or just get butt hurt and defensive about the g80 right away. From the fun factor, the g80 is definitely missing some of the edge and excitement. That special ///M'ness that existed before. Part of it is the zf too. Anyone that says it's as good as dct or pdk or that they can't tell the lag are either too inexperienced, don't drive hard enough, or just in denial. Yeah, the car is an amazing daily, but what it made up in daily confort and driving, it kinda lost in driving pressure. A lot of current g80 m3 owners are young and/or first time m buyers with first time buying an m3. If you have driven e46, e90, and in my case f80cs, or even the e39 and e60 m5, then you know what I'm talking about. Something was lost. Is it all bad, absolutely not. Still a great car, but is it an exciting to drive, not as much. My brother has a g80 so I've spent enough time borrowing it and driving it to know. It's super fast and capable for sure, but it doesn't tickle my balls like it should, pardon my french. 😁


But who knows. When my g80 CS arrives, I might eat my words and think it's the greatest thing ever. At least that's what I'm hoping since I walked away from the g80 the first time after having it for 24 hours.

Absolutely agree ^^^^^^^^^^^

[Allerum]

A lot of people here are chasing a feeling.

Several people think the ZF is not as snappy or doesn't feel as good as the DCT.

But I am sure the reason they switched was is the ZF smoother at applying power down? Yes the laptimes are faster.

The AWD is heavier so its less sporty? Yes, but the lap times are faster.

You as the driver don't feel as confident in the car, but if you go to the edge is it predictable? Yes, the lap times are faster.

All of the changes the engineers made we're for faster lap times, and its faster than all previous generations, to me that means its the best generation until the next is faster. How it feels is not as important as what it is capable of.

Nostalgia and Feeling are great for Classic Cars and a Sunday Drive and those cars are sports cars still. But so is the G80, because nobody says motorsports car its shortened to sports car, a car for driving sporty.

There has to be a point where car moves into sporty and I think that's the engineering put into the car to take aggressive driving and not overheat or crash or have a malfunction. A sports car is meant to be driven sporty if the car can be driven sporty and not have issues its a sports car.

[Turbodu07]

Originally Posted by Jackie Chiles

Datsun? I autocrossed a 510. Very cool little car!

And I agree. If its fun to drive fast who cares if its a sports car? My '67 Mini Cooper S was a prime example of that. The 510 also.

Datsun 260Z was my first true sports car. I autocrossed the shit out of that little car. So much fun!

Then it was time to upgrade it or...go to the next level with the Vette. Both were awesome but I sure miss the old school Z.

Those 510's are also fucking cool as hell!

[MichaelB1969]

Originally Posted by Allerum

How it feels is not as important as what it is capable of.

Are you stating this as your personal opinion, or is your aim to state this as a fact?

[Allerum]

Originally Posted by MichaelB1969

Are you stating this as your personal opinion, or is your aim to state this as a fact?

Everything in this thread is an opinion. It's just my personal way of looking at what a sports car is

[willywilson]

The M4 is a sports car, the M3 is a sports sedan.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by wasya152

I agree with the post. I think it's about perspective. A lot of people either don't have it and just don't know what a fun car could feel like, don't drive hard enough to know, or just get butt hurt and defensive about the g80 right away. From the fun factor, the g80 is definitely missing some of the edge and excitement. That special ///M'ness that existed before. Part of it is the zf too. Anyone that says it's as good as dct or pdk or that they can't tell the lag are either too inexperienced, don't drive hard enough, or just in denial.

Having tracked both the DCT in my F80 M3 CS and the ZF in my G82, this is an oversimplification. I track with the DCT in S2, not S3 because I found it too harsh for my tastes. The ZF in S3 is just a little slower than the DCT in S2, so the tradeoff is minimal. I have won several local time attacks with a ZF, and in those conditions for that particular track, the ZF didn't hinder at the limit performance. The only time I've ever experienced a longer than usual delay to shift was from a dig for hard pulls in S3. BTW the DCT in the F80 M3 CS did the same thing. Manual shifting mode is a tad slower than in automatic shifting mode. Again, a small trade-off for manipulating the gears myself.

Having said all that, compared to a manual, both the DCT and the ZF are faster, yet we all consider the manual to be the purest choice for car enthusiasts. Why is the ZF then dismissed because it isn't as fast as the DCT, while the manual isn't? Maybe it's because the manual gives the driver a trade-off: that connected experience of a manual. The ZF, likewise, offers its own trade-off: more gears and smoother shifting. It's up to the owner to weigh all these factors in choosing which way to go. Of course, I would have loved to carry over the DCT to the G80, but that's out of our hands. To me, that's not "denial", that's working with what we got and it certainly isn't going to get in the way of taking it to the track and beating all my old lap times of my F80 M3 CS.

Originally Posted by wasya152

Yeah, the car is an amazing daily, but what it made up in daily confort and driving, it kinda lost in driving pressure. A lot of current g80 m3 owners are young and/or first time m buyers with first time buying an m3. If you have driven e46, e90, and in my case f80cs, or even the e39 and e60 m5, then you know what I'm talking about. Something was lost. Is it all bad, absolutely not. Still a great car, but is it an exciting to drive, not as much. My brother has a g80 so I've spent enough time borrowing it and driving it to know. It's super fast and capable for sure, but it doesn't tickle my balls like it should, pardon my french. ��

But who knows. When my g80 CS arrives, I might eat my words and think it's the greatest thing ever. At least that's what I'm hoping since I walked away from the g80 the first time after having it for 24 hours.

Having owned the F80 M3 CS, I gotta disagree on that too. I find my G82 more engaging, despite the ZF and weight increase, simply because turn in is so sharp and the chassis is noticeably stiffer. Cornering is a bit more satisfying with how responsive the G82 is, so even low speed cornering is a tad more enjoyable. However, both the F80 and G80 suffer overall numbness in steering feedback, and high ceiling for performance, so it is difficult to reach that ceiling on a public road. That's what was lost in the F80: steering feedback.

As far as borrowing you're brother's G80, it's just not the same when you are driving your own car. You need to get to know the car, especially in the case of the F80 and G80, which has the aforementioned numb steering. Take it to the track, get it sideways, find that limit, see what it can do. Then you will know how much more capable the G80 is vs the F80. Honestly through, if you really want that pure "sports car" driving experience, neither the G80 nor the F80 are the car for that. If you like the charm of a street car injected with as much sportiness as physics, budget, and the market will allow, then the F80 and G80 are great examples of that.

[GrannyShiftG80]

it's a racecar cause i say it's a racecar

[DO444]

Originally Posted by jmg

Having owned the F80 M3 CS, I gotta disagree on that too. I find my G82 more engaging, despite the ZF and weight increase, simply because turn in is so sharp and the chassis is noticeably stiffer. Cornering is a bit more satisfying with how responsive the G82 is, so even low speed cornering is a tad more enjoyable. However, both the F80 and G80 suffer overall numbness in steering feedback, and high ceiling for performance, so it is difficult to reach that ceiling on a public road. That's what was lost in the F80: steering feedback.

As far as borrowing you're brother's G80, it's just not the same when you are driving your own car. You need to get to know the car, especially in the case of the F80 and G80, which has the aforementioned numb steering. Take it to the track, get it sideways, find that limit, see what it can do. Then you will know how much more capable the G80 is vs the F80. Honestly through, if you really want that pure "sports car" driving experience, neither the G80 nor the F80 are the car for that. If you like the charm of a street car injected with as much sportiness as physics, budget, and the market will allow, then the F80 and G80 are great examples of that.

I agree with a lot of this!
I’m coming around as I spend more time with it.

The g80 is incredibly capable. It will take time to get to know the car and as I do that I’m appreciating it more and more each day and I’m finding the feeling of the car very enjoyable.

Whatever this thing is, a little bit sports car, a little bit muscle car, a little bit luxury car, a little bit race car… I’m falling in love with it!

One thing that is really fun in this car is how effortlessly quick it is. That alone is going to keep me entertained for quite awhile!

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by Allerum

How it feels is not as important as what it is capable of.

I fundamentally disagree with this statement. How it feels is the communication the car gives you about how hard the chassis is working and when the tyres are at the limit of their grip, it also gives you confidence to exceed those limits if the transition from grip to slip is progressive.

As a driver, this communication is incredibly important, if you are driving a car that is completely numb (but very quick), you will undoubtedly exceed the limit of what the car is capable of and very likely have a crash or alternatively massively underperform what the car is capable of achieving because you have no idea what is going on beneath you, so lack confidence in the car's ability.

So feel is the probably the single most important aspect of any car that you want to drive fast. Cars that have great chassis and steering feel give you enormous confidence to push them really hard and that's why feel is so prized by enthusiasts, it's not about classic cars or whatever it's about knowing precisely what is going on beneath you and being able to react to that!

[Allerum]

Originally Posted by HudsonHornett

I fundamentally disagree with this statement. How it feels is the communication the car gives you about how hard the chassis is working and when the tyres are at the limit of their grip, it also gives you confidence to exceed those limits if the transition from grip to slip is progressive.

As a driver, this communication is incredibly important, if you are driving a car that is completely numb (but very quick), you will undoubtedly exceed the limit of what the car is capable of and very likely have a crash or alternatively massively underperform what the car is capable of achieving because you have no idea what is going on beneath you, so lack confidence in the car's ability.

So feel is the probably the single most important aspect of any car that you want to drive fast. Cars that have great chassis and steering feel give you enormous confidence to push them really hard and that's why feel is so prized by enthusiasts, it's not about classic cars or whatever it's about knowing precisely what is going on beneath you and being able to react to that!

Feel is important, but lap times in this chassis are faster than the other chassis of prior years. So it's agreed upon that the G80 is less feel but its faster. People are not having an issue with keeping the car smooth and fast. Your a feels guy, lots of people are. And I don't mean to say there is zero feel its "less" feel. But like other's have posted, this car sets better times. I feel the engineers embodied smooth is fast with this cars design.

You can be having a great time in a solid bushing 944/Miata/e46 but your going to get passed. If that doesn't bother you great! Preferably you would have lots of senses coming through a car, but you don't NEED them all to be fast on the track. Tires being a much more critical role, in audible feedback and progressive slip vs feeling the slip in the wheel. For me if your going into a corner and the tires are screaming, its just as helpful as feeling the understeer. Some things are universal if your sliding the back around you don't need to "feel" that because you an recognize its happening because your direction is changing from forward to sideways.

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by Allerum

Feel is important, but lap times in this chassis are faster than the other chassis of prior years. So it's agreed upon that the G80 is less feel but its faster. People are not having an issue with keeping the car smooth and fast. Your a feels guy, lots of people are. And I don't mean to say there is zero feel its "less" feel. But like other's have posted, this car sets better times. I feel the engineers embodied smooth is fast with this cars design.

You can be having a great time in a solid bushing 944/Miata/e46 but your going to get passed. If that doesn't bother you great! Preferably you would have lots of senses coming through a car, but you don't NEED them all to be fast on the track. Tires being a much more critical role, in audible feedback and progressive slip vs feeling the slip in the wheel. For me if your going into a corner and the tires are screaming, its just as helpful as feeling the understeer. Some things are universal if your sliding the back around you don't need to "feel" that because you an recognize its happening because your direction is changing from forward to sideways.

I don't think the G80 does have less feel than previous iterations, it's just more communicative at a higher level.

And I'm sorry but if you're using tyre squeal as a tool to understand that a car is at its limit of grip, you should know that this is a fundamentally flawed strategy. For example, I had MPSC2's on one of my cars with pure nitrogen in them as opposed to air and with that tyre, I got no squeal whatsoever even past the limit of grip, so if I was waiting for tyre squeal to understand what I needed to do next, then I'd have been having a lot of accidents. Other tyres start to squeal well before they are at their grip limit, so this concept just doesn't work at all. Also, if you're waiting to SEE that your car is sliding because you can't feel it, then it's almost certainly too late to do anything about it.

A car with no feel simply cannot be driven as fast as it's capable of going, so I think we can agree that feel is incredibly important and in my view more important than what the car is capable of, because with no feel as I said earlier, you're either not going to drive fast enough or you're going to crash.

In the case of the G80 / G82 M cars this isn't much of an issue. They may lack some steering feel compared to other cars but they have oodles of chassis feel, so there's no issue with driving it at the limit or beyond BUT you do need to be really on it to get that chassis communicating as effectively as possible, which means when track driving, the car will feel like it's being pushed down because you have the suspension permanently on it's bump stops, which you will definitely feel.