[giphlag]

Some of you guys must have your head stuck in the sand; are you even following the larger auto industry as a whole?

The electrification of every product line at pretty much every automaker is now a done deal wether we like it or not. We can complain/bitch/moan about it all day but this isn't some speculation or rumors anymore.

The entire German and U.S. auto industry is re-training, re-tooling, re-building their plants, workers and product lines. Charging stations are popping up by the 100s every month. Battery technology is improving, using less rare-earth materials and improving densities. Recycling business is also coming along, look up Redwood Materials. Major investments happening in that aspect and something I hope to invest in going forward.

Furthermore, over 80% of EV charging happens at home overnight. The idea that there will be stranded EVs on the side of the road everywhere and long lines at charging stations is hilarious at best and at worst just plain fear mongering.

Look, I'm as much of a gear/motorsport head as any of you but I'm also a realist. I'm 41 and hope to live another 40 years at least. This means I need to be willing to give this change a shot because guess what, at the end of the day it's gonna happen and there's nothing we can do. Don't be that guy who still buys an ICE family car in 2 years and then complains by 2028 why no one wants to buy it. Be smart about this change. Use it to your advantage... keep a fun weekend/track car and shift the rest to EV.

[deemo319]

Originally Posted by cwhands

Couldn't get the touring approved for the US though.

Damnit Markus!

You would have needed BMW M fans here to apply heavy pressure to BMW North America for the car to be in this market.

[clutchdj]

Out with a Flasch!! I mean Flash!! So the m4csl sounds interesting. Can’t see out of the g82 but I am intrigued to see what the next CSL brings.

[n55f15]

Despite many disapproving of Flasch, I'm glad we're getting an M4CSL, M3 touring and potentially a 3.0CSL. Even the XM sounds interesting to some extent. Exciting times

[Tallest]

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

That sounds more like your opinion. Everyone keeps saying BMW is behind VW/Audi and Mercedes but I fail to see how and where. Last I checked, BMW will be the first to release an EV that will be priced for the masses. What does Audi have? An etron GT with a $100,000 price tag. What does Mercedes have? An EQS that will likely be priced more than a ICE-powered S Class.

It seems you and many others are caught up in the speculation of future products, the marketing and spectacle of what has been released. I'm not saying BMW is ahead, but they're definitely not behind. I'm far more interested in the i4 and what that could do for the future of EV in this segment than the etron GT and EQS which is meant more for the wealthy rather than the masses.

BMW has iX and i3 with charger on wrong" side for many and i4... Till 2025.

VW has id3, id4, id5 and will be selling Skoda and Audi variants of this. Porsche is coming with Macan EV next year which will be a hit, and Cayenne follows right after, and then Cayman electric. 911 wont yet. Not to mention the brilliantly driving Taycan and Etron GT Audi version also already available with 400km + range option (thats fine for most). Plus there is the Etron previous EV cars Audi had, based on Q8. The A6 electric is coming. What are you on about VW group has no EV cars coming??? And Mercedes now has an electric S class, an couple of SUVs and more on the way. Hyundai is hitting out of the park with Ioniq5, a range rover sized hatchback.. And way more to come from them too.

Its not my "opinion" what I wrote above. Its not a dig at BMW, its the truth. Get your facts straight. I have couple of ICE cars, Im happy with them, and I wish BMW had more to offer than the massively heavy hybrid 3 and 5 and X cars, rwd SUV iX3, and few others. They havent commited yet fully to making an EV product, it is still a bit of a trial error thing. Anyway, I dont need to convince anyone, you can load up configurator of Daimler group, VW group brands and then BMW and youll know if you shop for EV, you have limited choice with BMW.

[Tallest]

Originally Posted by giphlag

Some of you guys must have your head stuck in the sand; are you even following the larger auto industry as a whole?

The electrification of every product line at pretty much every automaker is now a done deal wether we like it or not. We can complain/bitch/moan about it all day but this isn't some speculation or rumors anymore.

The entire German and U.S. auto industry is re-training, re-tooling, re-building their plants, workers and product lines. Charging stations are popping up by the 100s every month. Battery technology is improving, using less rare-earth materials and improving densities. Recycling business is also coming along, look up Redwood Materials. Major investments happening in that aspect and something I hope to invest in going forward.

Furthermore, over 80% of EV charging happens at home overnight. The idea that there will be stranded EVs on the side of the road everywhere and long lines at charging stations is hilarious at best and at worst just plain fear mongering.

Look, I'm as much of a gear/motorsport head as any of you but I'm also a realist. I'm 41 and hope to live another 40 years at least. This means I need to be willing to give this change a shot because guess what, at the end of the day it's gonna happen and there's nothing we can do. Don't be that guy who still buys an ICE family car in 2 years and then complains by 2028 why no one wants to buy it. Be smart about this change. Use it to your advantage... keep a fun weekend/track car and shift the rest to EV.

I know, right? The blind stubborness of people unwilling to change is mind boggling. I get it that the EV product is misrepresented as green and reasonable people hate being lied to (they are not green). BUT if you get beyond that, EVs are better and more fun to drive if they are made by CAR company and not by Tech company.. Theyll get it.

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by Tallest

BMW has iX and i3 with charger on wrong" side for many and i4... Till 2025.

VW has id3, id4, id5 and will be selling Skoda and Audi variants of this. Porsche is coming with Macan EV next year which will be a hit, and Cayenne follows right after, and then Cayman electric. 911 wont yet. Not to mention the brilliantly driving Taycan and Etron GT Audi version also already available with 400km + range option (thats fine for most). Plus there is the Etron previous EV cars Audi had, based on Q8. The A6 electric is coming. What are you on about VW group has no EV cars coming??? And Mercedes now has an electric S class, an couple of SUVs and more on the way. Hyundai is hitting out of the park with Ioniq5, a range rover sized hatchback.. And way more to come from them too.

Its not my "opinion" what I wrote above. Its not a dig at BMW, its the truth. Get your facts straight. I have couple of ICE cars, Im happy with them, and I wish BMW had more to offer than the massively heavy hybrid 3 and 5 and X cars, rwd SUV iX3, and few others. They havent commited yet fully to making an EV product, it is still a bit of a trial error thing. Anyway, I dont need to convince anyone, you can load up configurator of Daimler group, VW group brands and then BMW and youll know if you shop for EV, you have limited choice with BMW.

I didn't say Audi or Mercedes didn't have anything coming. All those models you mentioned are probably models that are coming (inevitably). BMW also has an electric version of the 3 Series, 5 Series and 7 Series coming. There's the iX3, for certain markets. When are they coming? Who knows. What you're arguing has more to do with timing of when a product is being released - Audi and Mercedes might release models before BMW, maybe not. Nothing has been officially released other than knowing it's coming due to the shift from ICE to EV.

Everyone acting like BMW is just sitting still and has nothing coming down the pipeline. There's still a balance to maintain. Hypothetically, if 90% of their profit is in ICE, they're not going to suddenly drop it and shift to EV because that's the direction. And when the time finally comes, people are not going o stop buying a BMW because they were the last to market.

[nerdogray]

I frequent a lot of boards, and none have so many constituents that love to espouse their progressiveness as this one.

[giphlag]

Originally Posted by Tallest

I know, right? The blind stubborness of people unwilling to change is mind boggling. I get it that the EV product is misrepresented as green and reasonable people hate being lied to (they are not green). BUT if you get beyond that, EVs are better and more fun to drive if they are made by CAR company and not by Tech company.. Theyll get it.

I guess it depends on your definition of green. EVs are "green" in the sense that over their lifetime/in total they emit fewer Greenhouse Gases compared to ICE vehicles.

[NightWriter]

Originally Posted by Patton250

This is highly aggravating to you guys isn’t it? Do your own research. Why don’t you just call your dealer and ask them? That could be a start. The three dealerships I speak to say they have never had such interest in previous M3‘s like they have now. Initial sales before the slow down in parts was much higher than previous generations. Look it up on BMW‘s website. Once again ask your dealership. I suspect that overtime you will get over it. If not there’s always pills and whiskey. Perhaps some counseling.

I’m only joking around gentlemen don’t get too uptight about it. But I was serious about looking it up yourselves. If you can’t find it then I’ll help you.

Anecdotes from your dealer may be interesting, but that's not evidence of global sales numbers. You made an assertion, and we simply asked for evidence. I don't have an agenda here; I'm only curious how G8x sales are actually doing (more so related to design choices rather than EVs or other market forces).

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by AHall

So is this saying in the EU you will not be able to sell a ICE car in or after 2029? That is pretty drastic. It is one thing to no longer manufacture ICE driven cars but another to not allow their sale.

Hold your horses: let's make a distinction between, on the one hand, a mere proposal for Flanders that ain't enacted yet, and, on the other hand, mandatory European legislation applicable to the whole EU (see post #32).

Additional considerations about the emissions situation in Europe:

Originally Posted by Artemis

The future: a car for Europe that's lower on emissions and a car for the rest of world that's higher on emissions.

In Europe, homologation of new car models is subject to compliance with the EURO 6 emissions regulations (street legal). EURO 7 will apply from 2025 onwards. And for car manufacturers it promises to be a more painful yank on the tightened thumb screws that time around. And as the volume of the party music will get another drop from 2025 onwards, late 2024 will be an interesting window of opportunity for car manufacturers to please oldskool car enthusiasts. BMW better speeds up the process in developing a G87 M2 CS or G87 M2 CSL.

But apart from EURO 6 emissions regulations (globally), over the past couple of years "eco taxes" have been trending in Europe (regionally): countries imposing additional taxes, calculated on the basis of a cocktail of parameters (engine displacement, power output, fuel type, EURO category, age and CO2 emissions). And the only way is up: countries keep increasing those environmental taxes as the years pass by. Officially - alike taxes on cigarettes - as an incentive to discourage buying high emissions cars, but also in some way as a new source of income for the public authorities. Furthermore, fiscal rules gradually discourage companies to buy high emissions cars and increase personal taxes of company directors using high emissions company cars (or the other way around: fiscal rules favoring the purchase of electric cars).

Also trending in Europe (locally): cities imposing bans or restrictions for older, more polluting cars (ANPR cameras installed at the town borders check cars: a ban violation gets automatically fined). Purpose: less pollution or noise in town. We don't know how the situation will evolve, but possibly it's only a matter of time before modern high performance cars also may be banned or restricted (i.e. admitted for city residents subject to a hefty annual "eco tax"): all it takes is just a city deciding to impose a tight CO2 limit (or scheduling the ban or restriction to allow some time to adapt). The more cities copying those city bans, the less usability to drive your fancy high performance cars in cities, and the more those cars will drop in value. A bit like in Medieval Times in Europe: to access bigger towns surrounded by wall borders, you were required to pay a toll (excise) at the town gates (granting a right of passage to town and use its infrastructure and facilities). Looks like that's about to return: the more emissions, the higher the modern day 'excise' (granting some kind of right to 'polluting' in town).

And you know what ? It works: I know several people who decided to refrain from buying 'top dogs' anymore. Car manufacturers are aware of this and invest more in developing electric cars. Petrol cars are headed for extinction and not everyone buying high performance cars only uses those on race tracks.

If that's the case, let there be no doubt: rules will be adapted, taxing the higher displacement harder. Car manufacturers may get away with smart moves only temporary, but won't manage to permanently outsmart the system - any such loophole will be closed in function of the purpose: lower emissions.

Same happened to the "fake hybrids" that popped up in recent years, those "e-Whatever" cars with a negligible electric range: initially hybrids benefited favorable fiscal rules, and so also cars like a LaFerrari, McLaren P1 or 918 Spyder were suddenly part of the 'hybrids' family. Well, closing the loophole didn't take that long: 'fake hybrids' are taxed again as much as a 'no-hybrids'. 'Real hybrids' still benefit, as was intended.

Same goes for big SUV cars that were initially registered as "lightweight trucks" to benefit from fiscal rules - also that loophole got closed.

[GoneIn4Secs]

Originally Posted by MadBimmeRad

I should have been more careful with my wording. As you rightly point out, GT3/4 is purely for the track and not the road.

The F82 GTS is a track-focused road car but for my money, I would hate to drive it on the road because of many reasons but mostly, I don't want to carry 4Lt of distilled water for every time I go for a drive around town. Therefore, to me at least, it'll be more like a track car with road capabilities than the other way.

The E46 CSL, on the other hand, was a much nicer less uptight setup, imho, than the F82 GTS. I had hoped the G82 CSL would be more like the E46 CSL

I think my reasoning to be accurate because I see E46CSLs on the road but have never seen a GTS being driven around.



Thank you, I think they announced this last year of I recall correctly.




Question 9 was answered like: With the M8 we partially succeeded in this mission. Nevertheless there is still one segment we're not represented in! I can't reveal more than what I just said.


Could it be the M9? A super car or a hyper car is what is missing from BMW. Are they trying to take on Lamborghini?

The F82 GTS water spraying is only required if you want to unlock the top level of power for a length of time, like on a track day. Keeps the engine bay cooled.

It will still run without water, you dont need it for grabbing groceries around town.

[Boss330]

There was a hint in his answer re the standalone M-model that wasn't included in the OP…

His full reply was:

Our brand core is still racing and high performance on the road. However, we also want to retain customers who are into expressive luxury. With the M8 and its derivatives, we have already partially succeeded. But there is a segment in which there is a lot going on and in which we are not yet represented. I can not say more about that.

So. Which market with a lot going on isn't BMW represented in yet… Should be enough clues there to figure it out guys 😉

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by thaalrasha

All the political bullshit can shift 5 times again between now and then.

It is you who has brought political bullshit into this conversation.

For 95% of car owners, modern BEVs are objectively a better choice. People see something that's easier to live with, they go and buy it. Most of them wouldn't give two shits about climate change and have never heard about CATL.

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Meanwhile I’m proud of BMW for sticking with some ice options especially being in Europe with that type of government pressure on their throats. Good for you guys BMW. Stick to it.

They're only doing it because they sell to 3rd world countries (rural US included) that don't have the infrastructure.

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by NightWriter

Anecdotes from your dealer may be interesting, but that's not evidence of global sales numbers. You made an assertion, and we simply asked for evidence. I don't have an agenda here; I'm only curious how G8x sales are actually doing (more so related to design choices rather than EVs or other market forces).

I don't have sales but I do have production, current to mid-October. This is US+Canada.

G80:
Comp RWD - 1840 (12 months)
Comp AWD - 620 (4 months)
Base - 970 (12 months)

G82:
Comp RWD - 1700 (12)
Comp AWD - 580 (4)
Base - 750 (12)

G83: 280 (4)

[-EndOfAnEra-]

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

I don't have sales but I do have production, current to mid-October. This is US+Canada.

G80:
Comp RWD - 1840 (12 months)
Comp AWD - 620 (4 months)
Base - 970 (12 months)

G82:
Comp RWD - 1700 (12)
Comp AWD - 580 (4)
Base - 750 (12)

G83: 280 (4)

ynguldyn thanks for that. Do you have the 1st year production numbers for the F80/F82/F83 for comparison?

[overfreeze]

Originally Posted by Patton250

This is highly aggravating to you guys isn’t it? Do your own research. Why don’t you just call your dealer and ask them? That could be a start. The three dealerships I speak to say they have never had such interest in previous M3‘s like they have now. Initial sales before the slow down in parts was much higher than previous generations. Look it up on BMW‘s website. Once again ask your dealership. I suspect that overtime you will get over it. If not there’s always pills and whiskey. Perhaps some counseling.

I’m only joking around gentlemen don’t get too uptight about it. But I was serious about looking it up yourselves. If you can’t find it then I’ll help you.

It's funny how quickly G8x owners jump at defending their car when all we asked for was a source for what you stated. Without any facts to back up your claim, what you said was anecdotal at best or just completely wrong.

[Tallest]

Originally Posted by giphlag

I guess it depends on your definition of green. EVs are "green" in the sense that over their lifetime/in total they emit fewer Greenhouse Gases compared to ICE vehicles.

Green they are NOT. They do shift pollution away from cities I suppose. Thats all I mean by green. They are of course not green when you produce batteries in China using coal powerplants (like Polestar for example). And they are not green when you gonna recycle the battery in 10-20 years. But as consumer product they are pretty good in some way.

[FCX5]

Originally Posted by J-RO

The countries and companies that jump on the EV bandwagon will come to regret it one day.

The opposite is more likely to be true.

[FCX5]

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

It is you who has brought political bullshit into this conversation.

For 95% of car owners, modern BEVs are objectively a better choice. People see something that's easier to live with, they go and buy it. Most of them wouldn't give two shits about climate change and have never heard about CATL.

Once people (like my wife) experience EV, they are not going back to ICE. She'll be upgrading her Tesla MY with a BMW iX next year…based on when the preorders get filled.

[NightWriter]

Originally Posted by -EndOfAnEra-

ynguldyn thanks for that. Do you have the 1st year production numbers for the F80/F82/F83 for comparison?

I did find this from https://www.carscoops.com/2021/03/fl...r-most-sales/:



...and broken down by my detail for the F80 run at https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1551939...

...but those sales numbers are total for the entire series run over ~6 years.