BMW M3 and M4 - The Icons
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Technical Sections Suspension / Brakes / Chassis

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      12-01-2021, 06:05 PM   #1
beachBmmr
Lieutenant
beachBmmr's Avatar
United_States
499
Rep
483
Posts

Drives: '21 M4C RWD BSM/FR
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: DFW Texas

iTrader: (0)

Camber plates for G82 achieve -3.2 degrees front camber

Vorshlag made up a set of camber plates based on the a90/g20 fitment. I had them installed today and a track alignment performed at Texas track works in Fort Worth.

Surprisingly with stock springs we were able to achieve -3.2 degrees of negative camber, with ample clearance inside the strut tower, we utilized the maximum range of the camber plate.

The Vorshlag plates remove the stock nylon top hat bearings, and are a singe piece unit.

I look forward to testing on track in the coming days and determining the overall impact on cornering grip and tire wear as I blew though my front cup2s in 15 track sessions.

The highway drive home showed a tad bit of NVH (maybe 5%) and road feel, but go-kart like handling, especially with the full track oriented alignment.

I am very happy with the results achieved.
Attached Images
     
__________________
2021 M4C BSM
2020 GLS 580
Retired - 2019 440xi, 2020 X7, 2019 X5, 2013 F10, 2010 F10

Last edited by beachBmmr; 12-01-2021 at 09:35 PM..
Appreciate 5
mzcp615.00
jetbill159.50
tom @ eas5461.50
jmg11600.00
      12-01-2021, 07:56 PM   #2
McLaren720s
Captain
629
Rep
890
Posts

Drives: 2021 M4 Competition
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Seattle

iTrader: (0)

That's awesome! Looking forward to the track review. Should be impressive!

Now I wonder if they fit aftermarket springs
__________________
2021 BMW M4 Competition - Portimao Blue
Appreciate 1
beachBmmr498.50
      12-01-2021, 07:57 PM   #3
beachBmmr
Lieutenant
beachBmmr's Avatar
United_States
499
Rep
483
Posts

Drives: '21 M4C RWD BSM/FR
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: DFW Texas

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by McLaren720s View Post
That's awesome! Looking forward to the track review. Should be impressive!

Now I wonder if they fit aftermarket springs
Vorshlag will make the top perch for any spring spec. Just call them and talk to Jason

Edit, if youre using the stock top hat, this plate will work. Its spec to the factory overall diameter
__________________
2021 M4C BSM
2020 GLS 580
Retired - 2019 440xi, 2020 X7, 2019 X5, 2013 F10, 2010 F10
Appreciate 0
      12-01-2021, 08:19 PM   #4
jetbill
Captain
jetbill's Avatar
160
Rep
941
Posts

Drives: G80 M3
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: FL

iTrader: (7)

Thanks to beachBmmr I was able to pick up an early set from Jason at Vorshlag today as well! Simple to install, no noise, one and done.
__________________
.
Appreciate 1
beachBmmr498.50
      12-01-2021, 08:23 PM   #5
tom @ eas
Lieutenant General
tom @ eas's Avatar
United_States
5462
Rep
17,550
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Anaheim, CA

iTrader: (19)

Garage List
2018 BMW i3s  [0.00]
2010 BMW M3  [5.00]
2015 BMW M4  [3.50]
Quote:
Originally Posted by beachBmmr View Post
Vorshlag will make the top perch for any spring spec. Just call them and talk to Jason

Edit, if youre using the stock top hat, this plate will work. Its spec to the factory overall diameter
Just coming in to say this. If the spring fit the factory hats, should be fine.
__________________
Tom G. | european auto source (eas)
email: tom@europeanautosource.com web: www.europeanautosource.com tel 866.669.0705 ca: 714.369.8524 x22

GET DAILY UPDATES ON OUR BLOG FACEBOOK YOUTUBE FLICKR INSTAGRAM
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2021, 01:10 AM   #6
moproblems
First Lieutenant
228
Rep
303
Posts

Drives: 2021 M4 Isle of Man Green
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: SW MI

iTrader: (0)

Interested in what you see with tire wear up front. I have 2.5/2.5 and found the the tire wear was acceptable but did have to rotate 3 sessions in only on the fronts.3+ would probably help quite a bit next season.
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2021, 08:59 AM   #7
beachBmmr
Lieutenant
beachBmmr's Avatar
United_States
499
Rep
483
Posts

Drives: '21 M4C RWD BSM/FR
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: DFW Texas

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by moproblems View Post
Interested in what you see with tire wear up front. I have 2.5/2.5 and found the the tire wear was acceptable but did have to rotate 3 sessions in only on the fronts.3+ would probably help quite a bit next season.
I could have gone more negative in the rear but want to retain good acceleration grip. Hoping -3.2 is enough for decent wear, otherwise is lower control arms and tie rod ends for more.
__________________
2021 M4C BSM
2020 GLS 580
Retired - 2019 440xi, 2020 X7, 2019 X5, 2013 F10, 2010 F10
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2021, 02:43 PM   #8
beachBmmr
Lieutenant
beachBmmr's Avatar
United_States
499
Rep
483
Posts

Drives: '21 M4C RWD BSM/FR
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: DFW Texas

iTrader: (0)

Better visual of how much camber
Attached Images
 
__________________
2021 M4C BSM
2020 GLS 580
Retired - 2019 440xi, 2020 X7, 2019 X5, 2013 F10, 2010 F10
Appreciate 1
      12-02-2021, 04:16 PM   #9
beachBmmr
Lieutenant
beachBmmr's Avatar
United_States
499
Rep
483
Posts

Drives: '21 M4C RWD BSM/FR
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: DFW Texas

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by McLaren720s View Post
That's awesome! Looking forward to the track review. Should be impressive!

Now I wonder if they fit aftermarket springs
Im going to get a couple of sessions in Monday. Will be looking at a particular sweeper that I consistently get max of 1.2 gs laterally. Id be hoping to get more grip and carry more speed through that turn.
__________________
2021 M4C BSM
2020 GLS 580
Retired - 2019 440xi, 2020 X7, 2019 X5, 2013 F10, 2010 F10
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2021, 06:49 PM   #10
McLaren720s
Captain
629
Rep
890
Posts

Drives: 2021 M4 Competition
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Seattle

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by beachBmmr View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by McLaren720s View Post
That's awesome! Looking forward to the track review. Should be impressive!

Now I wonder if they fit aftermarket springs
Im going to get a couple of sessions in Monday. Will be looking at a particular sweeper that I consistently get max of 1.2 gs laterally. Id be hoping to get more grip and carry more speed through that turn.
I'd be shocked if you didn't. 1.2 degrees of extra front camber is huge.

Does anyone know if camber plates would interfere in any way with XDrive? Would we need "special" plates made?
__________________
2021 BMW M4 Competition - Portimao Blue
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2021, 11:11 PM   #11
moproblems
First Lieutenant
228
Rep
303
Posts

Drives: 2021 M4 Isle of Man Green
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: SW MI

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by beachBmmr View Post
I could have gone more negative in the rear but want to retain good acceleration grip. Hoping -3.2 is enough for decent wear, otherwise is lower control arms and tie rod ends for more.
Grip on accel is not too bad with 2.5. On the street it's iffy sometimes when the tires are cold but that's just to be expected. On track I didn't notice any issues with traction on corner exit.
Appreciate 1
beachBmmr498.50
      12-07-2021, 04:04 AM   #12
Bee Pee
Brigadier General
United Kingdom
1580
Rep
4,417
Posts

Drives: AW M2 DCT
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: SW London

iTrader: (3)

Millway camber plates G8X

Street version

https://www.millway.se/camber-plates...g80-m4g82.html

Uniball version

https://www.millway.se/camber-plates...g80-m4g82.html
__________________
Fettled M135i EB AT - gone but not forgotten:
AW M2 DCT
Appreciate 2
      12-07-2021, 10:38 AM   #13
Mrspeed636
Enlisted Member
United_States
36
Rep
47
Posts

Drives: 340GT, G80 Comp AWD - SOON!
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: Wake Forest, NC

iTrader: (0)

How did the new setup do on track!? I know it was only yesterday but I know we are all curious to hear.
Appreciate 0
      12-07-2021, 11:39 AM   #14
Polo08816
Brigadier General
1336
Rep
3,570
Posts

Drives: 2014 335i M Sport
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: MD

iTrader: (0)

This is exciting.
Appreciate 0
      12-07-2021, 12:05 PM   #15
beachBmmr
Lieutenant
beachBmmr's Avatar
United_States
499
Rep
483
Posts

Drives: '21 M4C RWD BSM/FR
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: DFW Texas

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrspeed636 View Post
How did the new setup do on track!? I know it was only yesterday but I know we are all curious to hear.
1. Definitely more mechanical grip up front. The added camber basically increased the contact patch significantly.

This is verifiable with lateral G-force increase, and faster corner speeds that demonstrates that the car was performing better in the corners.

Turn 6 is a sweeper, I pulled 1.25@90mph vs 1.10@88 mph
Turn 12 is uphill, I pulled with plates 1.25g@52mph vs 1.16g@50mph

I was able to improve my lap time by 1.03 and my maximum lateral Acceleration to 1.31g from 1.28.

PR went from 2:09.53 to 2:08.51
On my last lap I was 1 second faster pace from the 2:08 into the second to last turn when fuel reserve cut my engine power...GODDAMMIT can be heard from my recording.

2. While I wasnt able to get temps, the wear "look" pretty even. I did 125 track miles / 50 laps and the shoulders look good, with no rolling over. I also ran 34-36 hot pressure @ 200 degrees.

So I was able to get more performance out of the tires, which is verifiable and wear seems to be a bit better on the fronts, but only time or probe temps will prove it.

Now the rest of the story...

This car has a staggered setup for a reason. With more grip in the front the ass was moving noticeably more. Now I also increased the negative camber in the rear from -1.7 to -2, but the car really rotated a bit easier on corner entry, and I felt had more of a desire to step out on me on acceleration, in places I normally did not feel it.

I talked with some experienced guys at the track, who run M2CS racing, M2C instructor cars and drive NASA Spec Boxsters. They all told me the latest BMWs do not react well to more grip in the front without compensating for it in the rear. The car now needs to move weight rearward to deal with more grip in the front, as well as adding more tire to the back... McLaren720s Your squirrellyness under heavy braking could be related to lowering changing your rear grip, because under braking, the ass was dancing more than before. Might want to try taking some rake out of the car to keep more weight rearward. If I had HAS, I would do that.

The guys calling for 285 or 305 square setups on the G80s are going to be very upset with what they do to the car based on how its reacted to this small change in suspension that changed the front grip.

One might even say, the guys in Germany actually know what they're doing.
Attached Images
    
__________________
2021 M4C BSM
2020 GLS 580
Retired - 2019 440xi, 2020 X7, 2019 X5, 2013 F10, 2010 F10
Appreciate 5
mzcp615.00
Bee Pee1579.50
PLF691263.00
jetbill159.50
ATX_M357.50
      12-07-2021, 03:45 PM   #16
Mrspeed636
Enlisted Member
United_States
36
Rep
47
Posts

Drives: 340GT, G80 Comp AWD - SOON!
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: Wake Forest, NC

iTrader: (0)

AWESOME RESULTS! I am sold, I plan to start with a local alignment guru to see what he can do for me. He has me half talked into a hybrid street / track setup but I am not so sure. He said he would be worried about the toe changing if I use adjustable Camber plates to switch back and forth between 'track' and 'street' driving.

Regarding the staggered setup, I completely agree. Running at VIR up here, I ran a 2:07 bone stock. The rear end was definitely the weak point for me on corner exit. I am going to be running 285s out front and 305s out back, Good Year Super Car 3Rs so I am hopeful the extra rubber in the rear will keep me hooked up.

Thanks for sharing all the data!
Appreciate 0
      12-07-2021, 03:47 PM   #17
beachBmmr
Lieutenant
beachBmmr's Avatar
United_States
499
Rep
483
Posts

Drives: '21 M4C RWD BSM/FR
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: DFW Texas

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrspeed636 View Post
AWESOME RESULTS! I am sold, I plan to start with a local alignment guru to see what he can do for me. He has me half talked into a hybrid street / track setup but I am not so sure. He said he would be worried about the toe changing if I use adjustable Camber plates to switch back and forth between 'track' and 'street' driving.

Regarding the staggered setup, I completely agree. Running at VIR up here, I ran a 2:07 bone stock. The rear end was definitely the weak point for me on corner exit. I am going to be running 285s out front and 305s out back, Good Year Super Car 3Rs so I am hopeful the extra rubber in the rear will keep me hooked up.

Thanks for sharing all the data!
Toe will definitely change if you go back and forth. My toe was all jacked up after putting in the plates and not equally side to side
__________________
2021 M4C BSM
2020 GLS 580
Retired - 2019 440xi, 2020 X7, 2019 X5, 2013 F10, 2010 F10
Appreciate 0
      12-07-2021, 03:49 PM   #18
McLaren720s
Captain
629
Rep
890
Posts

Drives: 2021 M4 Competition
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Seattle

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by beachBmmr View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrspeed636 View Post
How did the new setup do on track!? I know it was only yesterday but I know we are all curious to hear.
1. Definitely more mechanical grip up front. The added camber basically increased the contact patch significantly.

This is verifiable with lateral G-force increase, and faster corner speeds that demonstrates that the car was performing better in the corners.

Turn 6 is a sweeper, I pulled 1.25@90mph vs 1.10@88 mph
Turn 12 is uphill, I pulled with plates 1.25g@52mph vs 1.16g@50mph

I was able to improve my lap time by 1.03 and my maximum lateral Acceleration to 1.31g from 1.28.

PR went from 2:09.53 to 2:08.51
On my last lap I was 1 second faster pace from the 2:08 into the second to last turn when fuel reserve cut my engine power...GODDAMMIT can be heard from my recording.

2. While I wasnt able to get temps, the wear "look" pretty even. I did 125 track miles / 50 laps and the shoulders look good, with no rolling over. I also ran 34-36 hot pressure @ 200 degrees.

So I was able to get more performance out of the tires, which is verifiable and wear seems to be a bit better on the fronts, but only time or probe temps will prove it.

Now the rest of the story...

This car has a staggered setup for a reason. With more grip in the front the ass was moving noticeably more. Now I also increased the negative camber in the rear from -1.7 to -2, but the car really rotated a bit easier on corner entry, and I felt had more of a desire to step out on me on acceleration, in places I normally did not feel it.

I talked with some experienced guys at the track, who run M2CS racing, M2C instructor cars and drive NASA Spec Boxsters. They all told me the latest BMWs do not react well to more grip in the front without compensating for it in the rear. The car now needs to move weight rearward to deal with more grip in the front, as well as adding more tire to the back... McLaren720s Your squirrellyness under heavy braking could be related to lowering changing your rear grip, because under braking, the ass was dancing more than before. Might want to try taking some rake out of the car to keep more weight rearward. If I had HAS, I would do that.

The guys calling for 285 or 305 square setups on the G80s are going to be very upset with what they do to the car based on how its reacted to this small change in suspension that changed the front grip.

One might even say, the guys in Germany actually know what they're doing.
Awesome analysis!

My problem is that I haven't done any changes to my car. The rear was loose under max braking both stock and now with MSS HAS. And the HAS actually added more squat in the rear than stock.

Also, have you considered adding aero in the rear (aka wing) to increase downforce on the rear axle?

And what if you just add more rubber in the rear? Maybe 305s?

Another thing to consider is rear axle kinematics
__________________
2021 BMW M4 Competition - Portimao Blue
Appreciate 0
      12-07-2021, 04:33 PM   #19
beachBmmr
Lieutenant
beachBmmr's Avatar
United_States
499
Rep
483
Posts

Drives: '21 M4C RWD BSM/FR
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: DFW Texas

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by McLaren720s View Post
Have you considered aero?
I dont think aero is where I am going. If I were a better driver and could nail every corner consistently I think theres probably ~3 seconds to get with the current setup. Nasa e90s on slicks do 2:03s driven by competent people.

Im still chasing the 1LE camaro at this track, and hes beating me by 2 seconds. I am sure I am pushing harder than him but he has more grip and more torque.

The idea behind this car is to be a totally inconspicuous competent track car that I can drive my kids in if need be.

Hijacking my own thread here:

I might just abandon the whole thing and go get a spec tube car. The consumables and fighting the computer are getting annoying.


I.E.

After 500 track miles / 200 laps -
This is my collection of Brake pads - 3 fronts and 2 rears(I've yet to take off my spent set of rears)

My rotors are worn about 3mm. I can see needing them in another 100 laps.

Going to be cost prohibitive to do 100 laps a month like this.
Attached Images
  
__________________
2021 M4C BSM
2020 GLS 580
Retired - 2019 440xi, 2020 X7, 2019 X5, 2013 F10, 2010 F10
Appreciate 2
      12-07-2021, 04:43 PM   #20
dirtyfreebooter
Lieutenant
dirtyfreebooter's Avatar
United_States
95
Rep
506
Posts

Drives: Vespa
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Boulder, CO

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by beachBmmr View Post
I might just abandon the whole thing and go get a spec tube car. The consumables and fighting the computer are getting annoying.
what brakepads are you running?
Appreciate 0
      12-07-2021, 04:45 PM   #21
beachBmmr
Lieutenant
beachBmmr's Avatar
United_States
499
Rep
483
Posts

Drives: '21 M4C RWD BSM/FR
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: DFW Texas

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtyfreebooter View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by beachBmmr View Post
I might just abandon the whole thing and go get a spec tube car. The consumables and fighting the computer are getting annoying.
what brakepads are you running?
Ebc bluestuff. I got 4 sets of fronts and two sets of rears when I got the car.

There are more options now
__________________
2021 M4C BSM
2020 GLS 580
Retired - 2019 440xi, 2020 X7, 2019 X5, 2013 F10, 2010 F10
Appreciate 0
      12-07-2021, 07:16 PM   #22
McLaren720s
Captain
629
Rep
890
Posts

Drives: 2021 M4 Competition
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Seattle

iTrader: (0)

Are you chasing a ZL1 1LE? Please tell me it's not an SS

A ZL1 is a pretty incredible track weapon. No shame in being a little slower than that. Assuming he's also not a better driver, you might need a couple more mods to catch up. A tune and exhaust (when available) will bump you up to same power level and more (650-700).
You can also wait for Team Schirmer axle kinematics and suspension. They're going to be lethal but not cheap.

Try 305s in the rear and see how it grips

I feel like with the amount of laps you're doing, you're going to go through a bunch of pads/rotors regardless of car, especially at this weight. Same with tires.
__________________
2021 BMW M4 Competition - Portimao Blue
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:41 PM.




g80
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST