[FTS]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

There is a reason that after two EV's, I chose to forgo a Taycan and go to a G80 as my daily. The G80 may very well be the last non-electrified new car I buy as my kids go to college and I go on a 7-10 year car buying hiatus. As much fun as a Taycan is (and it really is), I do miss the mechanical nature of an ICE car for a performance vehicle.

You mention about the mechanical nature, but don’t you think the G8x is only two steps away from the Taycan? After all the G8x, and all other Bimmers nowadays, use electric steering, brakes, diffs, shocks, auto trans, trunks, etc. the only mechanical components you have are the engine, transmission, and exhaust. And if they were not piping the sound into the cabin, you don’t hear any of it, nor feel them.

Would you agree, or am I way off?

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by FTS

You mention about the mechanical nature, but don’t you think the G8x is only two steps away from the Taycan? After all the G8x, and all other Bimmers nowadays, use electric steering, brakes, diffs, shocks, auto trans, trunks, etc. the only mechanical components you have are the engine, transmission, and exhaust. And if they were not piping the sound into the cabin, you don’t hear any of it, nor feel them.

Would you agree, or am I way off?

Well, you bring up a good point, so while I definitely disagree, I wouldn't say you're way off.

Let's go back in time to the car I learned to drive on. It was a 1986.5 Supra (I guess it's the first year of the Mk III?). It had....electronic suspension. Toyota called it TEMS (Toyota Electronically Modulated Suspension). Automobile Magazine, at the time, didn't warm to it and dubbed it the Totally Enigmatic and Mysterious Suspension. LOL. So even nearly 40 years ago, we see the rollout of electronic technology getting into cars. My parents moved on from that to a '91 R32 300Z. Sadly it was not the turbo (you couldn't get the 2+2 in Turbo form and I had to sit SOMEHWERE). But if it had been you would have been able to option...adaptive suspension AND Rear Wheel Steer (Super HICAS baby!) So, 35 years ago we have adaptive suspension AND RWS. And people call these cars "mechanical" and "analog". So clearly, having those types of systems in cars does not preclude them being perceived as such.

Acura NSX - Electric Power Steering. You're seeing my point here. My 2011 Turbo S has hydraullic steering that's super heavy but offers very little feel because the car is AWD. A similar 997 RWD is way more feelsome. It also has adaptive shocks, computer controlled diff(s), PDK with three modes, active engine mounts, etc. And yet when people drive it they say "proper old school 911".

So no, I don't think that a G8X having adaptive suspension, EPS, electronically controlled diff, auto trans etc. makes it one step away from a Taycan because by in large, those things are well sorted and don't get in the way. Drive a G8X back to back with a Taycan and you'll see despite all the elecronic assistance, you still have an ICE engine and gearbox, and that makes a WORLD of difference. The feeling of driving a fast EV is very, very different. The car just responds IMMEDIATELY. There are some EV's with built-in lag so you don't give yourself whiplash, but a Tesla, a Taycan and others don't put that buffer in there so if you stomp on the pedal, you are gaining speed NOW. And also in relative silence. The effect can be very disorientating, which is why Huyndai's Ioniq 5 N is coming with fake engine noise and even fake gearshifts to help track drivers have audio cues that help them judge speed. Because when you're hurtling along in silence and the only indication of speed is the blur of the landscape and the rush of the wind, it's hard to tell 80 from 100 and that's not good when you're approaching a corner (or a slow truck).

No, the G8X still feels like an ICE. You do still hear the powertrain despite the fake noise, and you feel it. You feel the gears engage and shift. You're aware that the engine has a powerband and you must manage it to extract speed. You're aware of the mechanical nature of the powertrain at all times and it permiates the car. Matt Farah of The Smoking Tire says that a fast EV feels the same as a slow EV when they are going slow, a to a very large extent, he's not wrong. I'm not going to say that a Bolt and a Plaid feel the same, but driving a Taycan Turbo S and a Taycan 4S with the same suspension feel EXACTLY the same if you're going 40. Likewise, a Taycan and a Model S long range accelerate the same but feel different because the Tesla is built by Elon's Elves and the Taycan is built by people who know how to build cars.

So no, there's a big difference between even a modern, fully tech laden car like the G8X and a Taycan.

[zinner]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

I'm not sure what you are arguing, except maybe that my opinions aren't yours?

I made a statement that an EV M3 would no longer be a capable track vehicle and it would essential change the idea of what an M3 from a track capable showroom car to a virtue signaling status symbol. Maybe BMW has some secret tech that will change that? I am doubtful, but would love to see it happen.

techwhiz1 told me that since hardly anyone tracks the M3 that doesn't matter anymore.

I am making the case that not only do people track the M3 but it's important to have a factory car that can be used to turned into race cars, HPDE cars etc. It's a very important part of BMW culture when it comes to Schools, Club Racing, Factory racing. BMW is one of the few manufactures that supports motorsports at a grass roots level with all their programs around the BMWCCA.

It's not just about what a bunch of non drivers plunk down at the dealership(even if you feel that is the majority, which I haven't see any hard data around), but there are actual drivers out there that would really lose out if we got stuck with some EV that can't perform as well as the traditional M cars going around a road or autocross.

[FTS]

Needsdecaf
I hear your points, and I am glad you took the time to explain. Today I drive an eTron GT, similar to Taycan, and it is just a superb car. The electrification of many parts of the G8x has been holding me back from purchasing one as I haven't been convinced that it will be that different from what I have today for daily duty. However, maybe I need to reconsider.

Thank you.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by FTS

Needsdecaf
I hear your points, and I am glad you took the time to explain. Today I drive an eTron GT, similar to Taycan, and it is just a superb car. The electrification of many parts of the G8x has been holding me back from purchasing one as I haven't been convinced that it will be that different from what I have today for daily duty. However, maybe I need to reconsider.

Thank you.

I have driven an ETron GT. It's essentially a Taycan with the suspension dialed back 10% and wearing an Audi suit. I've driven one once, but I've driven it's Taycan counterpart, the 4S, a BUNCH. It is most certainly different to a G8X.

The feeling of acceleration in the ETron is just different. It's great, but it never wow'd me coming out of a Model 3 Performance (of course everything else is better than the Tesla). It's a very, very comfortable car, as you know, and there is something addictive to the surge of EV acceleration. The precision.

But as I've now gone 7 months without the Tesla, and dailying either my 911 or Cayenne...I don't miss that EV experience. And I'm enjoying the process of starting the engine, feeling it rev, experiencing the gearchanges, having to keep the engine on boil to extract performance. And, most of all, the feeling that the acceleration is continuing despite the speed increasing. I know the 2 speed transmission in the Taycan / ETron mitigates that somewhat. But my 911 just...keeps...pulling.

I do miss being able to jump in the car and not warm it up. I do miss the smoothness pulling away from a stop. But I have a PHEV that I can do those things in.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by zinner

I made a statement that an EV M3 would no longer be a capable track vehicle and it would essential change the idea of what an M3 from a track capable showroom car to a virtue signaling status symbol. Maybe BMW has some secret tech that will change that? I am doubtful, but would love to see it happen.

techwhiz1 told me that since hardly anyone tracks the M3 that doesn't matter anymore.

I am making the case that not only do people track the M3 but it's important to have a factory car that can be used to turned into race cars, HPDE cars etc. It's a very important part of BMW culture when it comes to Schools, Club Racing, Factory racing. BMW is one of the few manufactures that supports motorsports at a grass roots level with all their programs around the BMWCCA.

It's not just about what a bunch of non drivers plunk down at the dealership(even if you feel that is the majority, which I haven't see any hard data around), but there are actual drivers out there that would really lose out if we got stuck with some EV that can't perform as well as the traditional M cars going around a road or autocross.

I don't think there is a lot to worry about since battery technology is nowhere near to the point where we can shave 600lbs off an i4.

Until battery tech improves ICE will exist.
ICE will exist because all markets aren't demanding EV and can't even support the infrastructure for BEV.

That being said weight has to drop and in dropping weight, range improves. Also cooling of the batteries and motors will need to be more aggressive.

Also BMW will face the issues that Porsche, Mercedes and other will face and they will all need to figure it out. BMW is not in a vacuum.

[dAPEX]

Could be moving on to a different car brand that doesn’t have its head in its ass.

[dAPEX]

Originally Posted by ghaffari46

The International Energy Agency expects over 14 million EVs to be sold globally in 2023, which would account for about 18 percent of total car sales. The figure would represent a 35 percent increase year over year, accounting for as much as 18 percent of total car sales in 2023, so unlike popular belief many people globally embrace EVs.
The breakpoint is 20%, which will happen pretty soon, under 80% market share is not profitable for car companies to keep making ICE. Considering significant environmental changes that are happening now, many more people will embrace EVs( my 10 year old told me this morning I should take tesla instead my m5 to work to be more responsible, go figure!).
So as much as traditional car companies wanted to drag their feet to stay away from EVs, but market and governmental policies make them to be less dependent on ICE cars.

Can’t wait to see the environment destroyed by coal powered electricity and rare earth metal strip mining. Great. The only policies making them move to EVs are governmental. Fix the grid and electricity production before jumping off this cliff.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by dAPEX

Could be moving on to a different car brand that doesn’t have its head in its ass.

And who might that be, please enlighten us?

[jmack123]

Originally Posted by dAPEX

Can’t wait to see the environment destroyed by coal powered electricity and rare earth metal strip mining. Great. The only policies making them move to EVs are governmental. Fix the grid and electricity production before jumping off this cliff.

Quick question, can you power ICE vehicles on alternative sources like solar power? Seems you should be more concerned about petroleum powered cars ruining our atmosphere.
And why is “fixing” the grid an issue? You do realize it costs three times less energy to power an EV correct? You do realize that means 3 times less needing to be input into the “grid” correct? Soooo we probably SHOULD fix the grid in a way that cost three times less in direct energy inputs right?
Honestly, these arguments are beyond asinine.

[harperium]

not to be partisan, just as factal as i can be:

synthetic carbon-neutral (mostly) fuels are making rapid progress. this has the big advantage of reusing the entire world’s existing gasoline infrastructure.

a much better use of the rare earth elements in batteries is for plugin/mild hybrids, not full BEVs. this approach would save a lot more carbon net net. one BEV could instead make 30 to 50 hybrids. The Toyota CEO has been making this argument. I agree with him.

hydrogen is making rapid progress, for both fuel cell and internal combustion. BEV is not a scalable option to replace 100% of gasoline, esp. not in heavy equipment, trucking, shipping, nautical, aerospace, etc.

any attempt to actually ban gasoline ICE will likely result in a substantial backlash (remember the mask and vaccine mandates?), and that backlash will most likely erase any bans.

don’t count ICE out yet.

[jmack123]

Originally Posted by harperium

not to be partisan, just as factal as i can be:

synthetic carbon-neutral (mostly) fuels are making rapid progress. this has the big advantage of reusing the entire world’s existing gasoline infrastructure.

a much better use of the rare earth elements in batteries is for plugin/mild hybrids, not full BEVs. this approach would save a lot more carbon net net. one BEV could instead make 30 to 50 hybrids. The Toyota CEO has been making this argument. I agree with him.

hydrogen is making rapid progress, for both fuel cell and internal combustion. BEV is not a scalable option to replace 100% of gasoline, esp. not in heavy equipment, trucking, shipping, nautical, aerospace, etc.

any attempt to actually ban gasoline ICE will likely result in a substantial backlash (remember the mask and vaccine mandates?), and that backlash will most likely erase any bans.

don’t count ICE out yet.

I think you raise a good overall point - not to put all of our eggs in one basket.
Carbon-neutral fuels are intriguing as well as hydrogen, but do you know what they both have in common? Neither one is commercially viable. That’s not to say they won’t be in the future, but seems there have been some serious challenges.
It seems the best use case for hydrogen is actually in energy storage solutions (at the moment anyway).
In terms of carbon-neutral petrol replacements, the problem would still remain - ICE vehicles which would leverage these fuels are still incredibly inefficient in the use of fuel relative to their BEV counterparts.
In any event, it seems ICE vehicles will eventually (within the next 30 years or so) become the minority relative to alternative options.

[MarineRaider]

In all these pages did anyone answer where all the electricity is going to come from? Here in California last summer they told us not charge our EV or run AC last Sept/Oct. Last I checked no nuclear plants or plants of any kind coming online around these parts....

[FTS]

Originally Posted by MarineRaider

In all these pages did anyone answer where all the electricity is going to come from? Here in California last summer they told us not charge our EV or run AC last Sept/Oct. Last I checked no nuclear plants or plants of any kind coming online around these parts....

Are you expecting this forum to solve the world's energy problems?

[Bucheeri90]

I still think that hybridity and electric car’s specially performance ///M-RS-AMG etc will not have a high demand by enthusiasts and will flop in sales and the performance divisions will take a hit, car manufacturers are not in business to make people happy they are in business to make money, i hope ICE will still exists in the future

[bilalaman]

I owned a 2017 C43 V6 3.0 and went to get the 2023 model which was not only a lot more expensive but had that 2.0 4 Cylinder with hybrid assist and electric exhaust-gas turbocharger
Engine

Nothing could convince me and here I’m am getting 2024 G80 - November / December delivery

[JCZ5]

I use to be in the camp of no hybrids or electrification. But now realize I like it more than turbocharging. Why? Because of torque fill in a hybrid applications.

I guess we will see looking back on it, but maybe after vehicles go fill electric we will realize N/A and hybrids are actually the better options compared to TC