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      11-08-2021, 12:11 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by 2011ninja View Post
I'm not trying anything - my apologies

You seem well versed and knowledgeable about driving and cars.

My track experience is on race bikes on a track and those years are behind me now.

I don't have the energy to get into technology and rider driver ability and how much translates on to a track.

I now ride an r 1200 gs next season a new 1250 GS

I just like the fun of driving

Not ready for automatic and AWD just yet
No problem. My riding is limited to a 750cc Yamaha Gramps bike Need to sit upright these days.

Would expect over 95% of BMW buyers will never turn a wheel in any kind of competition down to a Traffic Light Grand Prix. Their money & EPA footprint does let BMW continue to make the toys we like to buy
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      11-08-2021, 12:25 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2011ninja View Post
I'm not trying anything - my apologies

You seem well versed and knowledgeable about driving and cars.

My track experience is on race bikes on a track and those years are behind me now.

I don't have the energy to get into technology and rider driver ability and how much translates on to a track.

I now ride an r 1200 gs next season a new 1250 GS

I just like the fun of driving

Not ready for automatic and AWD just yet
No problem. My riding is limited to a 750cc Yamaha Gramps bike Need to sit upright these days.

Would expect over 95% of BMW buyers will never turn a wheel in any kind of competition down to a Traffic Light Grand Prix. Their money & EPA footprint does let BMW continue to make the toys we like to buy
Word up bro ski! 😁

I hope to bite the bullet and order the car next couple of months.
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      11-08-2021, 12:29 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by 2011ninja View Post
#1 driver experience
#2 tires
The same driver with the same tires can consistently go faster, more safely in all conditions, especially anything-less-than-perfect conditions in an AWD than they would in an RWD. Reasons are plastered in prior posts in this thread, in this forum, on YouTube and in articles.

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Originally Posted by 2011ninja View Post
Good grief

Torque vectoring flux capacitor cornering g forces

"I'm sure AWD is gonna help a lot of magazine racers"

They will definitely be the ones at the stop light trying to justify the AWD.

I just read on the Internet I can take this corner faster cause I have AWD

99% of the people who get AWD will never have a stop light race. Never go full @$$ hat around a dangerous corner.

6MT for the WIN

Someone please start a poll

AWD helped me ______………
We get it, you like the 6MT. Rowing gears means more to you than going fast(er).

There is nothing wrong with that choice. But understand that for some others the pursuit is for the fastest, safest car possible within their budget, and the 6MT or RWD is rarely ever that car (or never, budget permitting) when you look at the current gen M3/M4.
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      11-08-2021, 12:35 PM   #92
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Word up bro ski! 😁

I hope to bite the bullet and order the car next couple of months.
Enjoy it when you get it. Looks like mine comes off the boat in GA. tomorrow. Tracker says the ship is 98NM out of port Brunswick @ 15kts. Been slowly slowing down from a peak 18kts & is running ahead of its original ETA
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      11-08-2021, 02:21 PM   #93
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From my experience living in northern new england and spending a good chunk of time fairly close to the canadien border in the winter, I'd still pick RWD. My entire response is based on snow driving, not 0-60 runs in the dry/wet (for which AWD makes sense). If AWD is strong a consideration for snow, I'd probably look for an entirely different vehicle.

I have a xdrive 6MT E90 335 that I flashed to 100% RWD with xDelete a few years ago and haven't bothered to switch back to AWD. With a fresh set of Bridgestone Blizzak WS70 tires, I haven't found any situation where AWD would really make much of a difference- other than accelerating faster. This includes unpaved roads in the middle of no where, starting on steep hills, backwoods NH/ME/VT etc. When roads are unplowed (1-2ft deep), it's time for a 4x4 SUV or truck with all terrains- not a car (except some subarus with decent ground clearance and snow tires).

The real issue isn't the drive type but ground clearance. Once you're in snow over the bumper, you're effectively a snowplow. AWD allows you to plow a bit more but is still very limited by the lack of ground clearance.

Considering all M3s are generally close to 50/50 weight distribution and have a limited slip differential in the rear, they are all pretty darn good in the snow (WITH CORRECT TIRES!).

From what I've found, the environments where you really need to consider AWD or 4x4 are on deeply rutted, unmaintained class 6 roads where ground clearance and axle articulation are key. AWD or RWD cars don't really matter because they will be scraping or bottoming out. Ground clearance + 4x4 (think 4runner, GX460, Jeep, Land Cruiser, truck, etc.) is what you want in these areas as a primary vehicle.

Another couple points to consider:

-AWD versions are dramatically more complicated in the front with limited access.
-RWD BMWs are MUCH easier to work on up front compared to the AWD versions.
-a strong propensity for BMWs to leak oil over time (eco rubber/gaskets, heat, who knows?).
-Tire circumference must be close in order to prevent damage to the transfer case (i.e. buying 4 vs 2 tires).

It will only be a matter of time before CV boots tear, front differential oil seals weap, hard to chase vibrations, oil pan gasket leaks, transfer case issues, axles, etc. Not to mention the additional potential for failure of the transfer case and front differential. Not saying that it's only limited to BMW, just that these can and do fail on all AWD vehicles.

If your goal is to lease the car for 3 years and only have one set of tires, AWD I guess makes sense. But if you intend to own the car for the long haul, go RWD.
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      11-08-2021, 03:29 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjx View Post
AWD does not help with braking for sure.
Glad we agree on one point!

Quote:
Originally Posted by kjx View Post
But it absolutely helps with cornering....
You're talking about accelerating out of a turn with lower traction. I originally acknowledged that AWD helps acceleration when traction is low, so we're saying the same thing here. I was talking about passive cornering (i.e. grip), which is 100% a function of a tire's adhesion to the road surface.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kjx View Post
And it helps with hydroplaning too. Why? Because when non drive wheels suddenly hit water, they act like they are braking.
Uh, no. When you're cruising and suddenly hit a deep patch of water, the (non-drive) wheels do not suddenly stop (unless you stab the brakes). They maintain their momentum and continue to spin, and the hydroplaning occurs because the tires are literally gliding on top of the water. Adjusting wheel speed by applying torque will not magically overcome hydroplaning. If you have a more definitive source that argues to the contrary, I'd be happy to reconsider.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kjx View Post
The depth and pattern of your tire tread matters a huge amount for hydroplaning too - there is a noticeable difference between 9mm of tread and 6mm of tread. While they say 2mm is the minimum safe, I dump tires if needed at 4mm (in fall) since they don't meet my needs anymore.
Yes, of course. The importance of tires was the point I was getting at. Agreed that 2mm is insufficient/unsafe.
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      11-08-2021, 04:01 PM   #95
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Listen, people buy the M cars for a lot of different reasons. Same with AWD. But generally, M drivers care about performance, and a big part of performance has to do with acceleration.. With 0-60 times for AWD M3/4s widely being reported in the 3.1 sec range, we're talking C8 Stingray territory here with better liveability (if there is such a word). At least, thats how I look at it. And with the numerous rear bias settings available and the ability to defeat the awd function entirely, I think a good case can be made for that version.
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      11-08-2021, 04:53 PM   #96
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I can't believe the overwhelming votes for awd on an M… lol from men… lol I must be from the dark ages… I've lived in NY my whole life. Yes I know the benefit of awd, blah blah blah. My husband drove a Q7 for years and to be honest, it sucked. My e90 M3 with Blizzaks got around and up my driveway (on a slope) better than his Audi did… AND I shut the traction off, because I did better sliding back and forth up the hill, then I did with the traction ON and not letting me get any grip. AWD is a nice feature, to me, it's good for families, and Sunday drives to pick apples and whatnot… but an M, or an AMG, or certain other cars are just so much more aggressive and classic, with RWD…
That is all… my rant is over…
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      11-08-2021, 05:50 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3LISSA View Post
I can't believe the overwhelming votes for awd on an M… lol from men… lol I must be from the dark ages… I've lived in NY my whole life. Yes I know the benefit of awd, blah blah blah. My husband drove a Q7 for years and to be honest, it sucked. My e90 M3 with Blizzaks got around and up my driveway (on a slope) better than his Audi did… AND I shut the traction off, because I did better sliding back and forth up the hill, then I did with the traction ON and not letting me get any grip. AWD is a nice feature, to me, it's good for families, and Sunday drives to pick apples and whatnot… but an M, or an AMG, or certain other cars are just so much more aggressive and classic, with RWD…
That is all… my rant is over…
M3LISSA, youre looking at the AWD function in the wrong way.. M drivers who care about performance, ie virtually all of them, see it as a faster better performing car. Youll find AWD drivers in south Texas, Florida, Southern Cali, etc, etc. I wonder why!! Contrary to what you say its the AWD versions according to instrumented tests that are the more aggressive ones. Lissa, you think those highest of performance supercars that come in awd do so to help out with the snow?

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      11-08-2021, 05:59 PM   #98
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You can definitely do donuts and drift in an AWD car. Google AWD axial donuts and you will see. I will take AWD over RWD in an empty parking lot.
The only experience I have it attempting to do donuts with an all wheel drive vehicle in a parking lot was with my mothers 1989 all-wheel-drive Subaru. And I can tell you this sir, it would not do a donut in the snow. That freaking car could mow through any snow storm you threw at it. No problem.

Now my best friends 1986 Irock Z Camaro? Big time donuts.
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      11-08-2021, 06:01 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by boostm3 View Post
M3LISSA, youre looking at the AWD function in the wrong way.. M drivers who care about performance, ie virtually all of them, see it as a faster better performing car. Youll find AWD drivers in south Texas, Florida, Southern Cali, etc, etc. I wonder why!! Contrary to what you say its the AWD versions according to instrumented tests that are the more aggressive ones.

Very true and plus with the all-wheel-drive version you can just shut off four-wheel-drive if you want. So many people on this forum seem to be comfortable with eliminating options for themselves. There’s a whole thread on the touchscreen with people not caring if BMW removes it as an option. I don’t get people being OK with going backwards.
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      11-08-2021, 06:01 PM   #100
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The only experience I have it attempting to do donuts with an all wheel drive vehicle in a parking lot was with my mothers 1989 all-wheel-drive Subaru. And I can tell you this sir, it would not do a donut in the snow. That freaking car could mow through any snow storm you threw at it. No problem.

Now my best friends 1986 Irock Z Camaro? Big time donuts.
Funny, but your mom's 4wd Subi from yesteryear bears no resemblance to modern awd systems. I think your intended sarcasm is there to emphasize this point.. Its a whole nother world.
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      11-08-2021, 06:03 PM   #101
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Funny, but your mom's 4wd Subi from yesteryear bears no resemblance to modern AWD system.
Very true. Way more advanced AWD systems today. But that damn thing sure took all the fun out of driving in the snow except for the people that didn’t want to have fun driving in the snow. Then it was the perfect car.
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      11-08-2021, 06:44 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patton250 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by superbrew View Post
You can definitely do donuts and drift in an AWD car. Google AWD axial donuts and you will see. I will take AWD over RWD in an empty parking lot.
The only experience I have it attempting to do donuts with an all wheel drive vehicle in a parking lot was with my mothers 1989 all-wheel-drive Subaru. And I can tell you this sir, it would not do a donut in the snow. That freaking car could mow through any snow storm you threw at it. No problem.

Now my best friends 1986 Irock Z Camaro? Big time donuts.
What you know about the iroc z?

That thing was bad a$$ back in the day!
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      11-08-2021, 06:47 PM   #103
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What you know about the iroc z?

That thing was bad a$$ back in the day!
I know that it was a Babe magnet. It was also fast as hell for the day.
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      11-08-2021, 07:17 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2011ninja View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patton250 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by superbrew View Post
You can definitely do donuts and drift in an AWD car. Google AWD axial donuts and you will see. I will take AWD over RWD in an empty parking lot.
The only experience I have it attempting to do donuts with an all wheel drive vehicle in a parking lot was with my mothers 1989 all-wheel-drive Subaru. And I can tell you this sir, it would not do a donut in the snow. That freaking car could mow through any snow storm you threw at it. No problem.

Now my best friends 1986 Irock Z Camaro? Big time donuts.
What you know about the iroc z?

That thing was bad a$$ back in the day!
Yes!!! I had a GTA Trans Am. White / gold rims. T-tops baby. 2-10" subs in the back firing down into the well. Thing kicked!! Good ol days
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      11-08-2021, 07:29 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SickGTR View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2011ninja View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patton250 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by superbrew View Post
You can definitely do donuts and drift in an AWD car. Google AWD axial donuts and you will see. I will take AWD over RWD in an empty parking lot.
The only experience I have it attempting to do donuts with an all wheel drive vehicle in a parking lot was with my mothers 1989 all-wheel-drive Subaru. And I can tell you this sir, it would not do a donut in the snow. That freaking car could mow through any snow storm you threw at it. No problem.

Now my best friends 1986 Irock Z Camaro? Big time donuts.
What you know about the iroc z?

That thing was bad a$$ back in the day!
Yes!!! I had a GTA Trans Am. White / gold rims. T-tops baby. 2-10" subs in the back firing down into the well. Thing kicked!! Good ol days
Nice!!! One of my classmates in HS had a brand new 1984 Camaro Berlinetta. Dude had all the women!!!
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      11-08-2021, 07:38 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by M3LISSA View Post
I can't believe the overwhelming votes for awd on an M… lol from men… lol I must be from the dark ages… I've lived in NY my whole life. Yes I know the benefit of awd, blah blah blah. My husband drove a Q7 for years and to be honest, it sucked. My e90 M3 with Blizzaks got around and up my driveway (on a slope) better than his Audi did… AND I shut the traction off, because I did better sliding back and forth up the hill, then I did with the traction ON and not letting me get any grip. AWD is a nice feature, to me, it's good for families, and Sunday drives to pick apples and whatnot… but an M, or an AMG, or certain other cars are just so much more aggressive and classic, with RWD…
That is all… my rant is over…
If you think AWD in an M is all about snow & rain you may want to try to rethink it. Think of it in lines on cars like Ferrari, Porsche, McLaren & Lamborghini cars without enough ground clearance to go out is a dusting of snow.

Then ask yourself why do some of the fastest car lines in these makes come standard with AWD.

Not unusual to shut off traction control in deep snow or steep hills so the tires will slip rather than stop but with AWD you have 4 tires pulling not just two.

More than likely its in the manual someplace but I can't say, you know how us guys are about reading the manual.
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      11-08-2021, 07:39 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2011ninja View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SickGTR View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2011ninja View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patton250 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by superbrew View Post
You can definitely do donuts and drift in an AWD car. Google AWD axial donuts and you will see. I will take AWD over RWD in an empty parking lot.
The only experience I have it attempting to do donuts with an all wheel drive vehicle in a parking lot was with my mothers 1989 all-wheel-drive Subaru. And I can tell you this sir, it would not do a donut in the snow. That freaking car could mow through any snow storm you threw at it. No problem.

Now my best friends 1986 Irock Z Camaro? Big time donuts.
What you know about the iroc z?

That thing was bad a$$ back in the day!
Yes!!! I had a GTA Trans Am. White / gold rims. T-tops baby. 2-10" subs in the back firing down into the well. Thing kicked!! Good ol days
Nice!!! One of my classmates in HS had a brand new 1984 Camaro Berlinetta. Dude had all the women!!!
Dope!! Panty dropper😉
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      11-08-2021, 10:10 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2011ninja View Post
#1 driver experience
#2 tires


Good grief

Torque vectoring flux capacitor cornering g forces

"I'm sure AWD is gonna help a lot of magazine racers"

They will definitely be the ones at the stop light trying to justify the AWD.

I just read on the Internet I can take this corner faster cause I have AWD

99% of the people who get AWD will never have a stop light race. Never go full @$$ hat around a dangerous corner.

6MT for the WIN

Someone please start a poll

AWD helped me ______………
I'm a big fan of RWD & AWD... in fact out of the past 12 years, I've had at least 1x RWD toy (always a manual) and 1x AWD DD (usually an automatic so we have a backup car for the family) at the same time...

I'll fill in the blank:
AWD helped me drift/have an absolute blast on the snow (& Ice driving on frozen lakes).

RWD is great for warm/sunny weather

M3Cx is the best of both worlds. HOWEVER, it doesn't have a manual which is a true shame (and why I plan to buy a toy for summer - likely a Z4MR when I find the right deal).
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      11-09-2021, 05:22 AM   #109
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They don't make AWD cars with a manual transmission.
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      11-09-2021, 05:54 AM   #110
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If having a stick is not a primary decision point, get the AWD. This is not BMW's first effort at AWD; on the street, the differences will be imperceptible to subtle at best. It'll hardly spoil the experience of an occasional track day.
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