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      01-15-2021, 04:28 AM   #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apirumann View Post
His logic is;
1 - 50/50 is not great as BMW wants us to believe,
2 - Rear bias is better

G80/82
1 - Has no 50/50
2 - Has no rear bias either.

So, G80/G82 is even worse than a 50/50 car, yet he is arguing with the people who are not fond of this weight distribution ??? What is the point?
Not arguing, but bringing additional insight that even 50/50 is not "ideal" as BMW have claimed for so long.
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      01-15-2021, 08:38 AM   #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Thank you

Since I suspect you do more research than pretty much anyone else here would you take a stab at guessing the weight difference between the 18/19 and 19/20 setup offered for the G8X?
Too much variability here for me to attempt any speculation. We'll have to wait for the official weight specs
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      01-15-2021, 02:24 PM   #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swagon View Post
I'm glad we're (hopefully) starting to get some technical material from AG.
From the video:
F82 Comp DCT on 20", likely fully loaded; 1,640 kg
G82 RWD 6MT, 19/20", CF seats, full leather; 1,674 kg
Full tank, which means ca. 59 litres for both vehicles.
According to the data from the press release, a base German-spec 6MT G82 M4 weighs 1,700 kg (DIN, i.e. all fluids, 90% tank). Such car has basic LEDs, HiFi audio, memory seats, 18/19" rims, acoustic glass
Base 2018+ 6MT F82 is 1,570 kg; DCT-equipped is 1,595 kg (DIN). Such car had adaptive LEDs, HiFi audio, electric cloth seats, 18" rims, no DDC, no CF driveshaft.
My maths sucks, but if we compare apples to apples and calculate a DIN weight with empty fuel tank, then their F82 in the video would be approx. 1,596 kg and the G82 1,630 kg.
Base F82 6MT 1,530 kg; F82 DCT 1,555 kg
Base G82 6MT 1,660 kg; G82 Comp 1,685 kg, again all DIN w/o fuel.
Add ca. 10 kg for the standard seats and you're at 1,64x kg. None of the G82 numbers add up. How is this optioned-out car lighter than a supposedly stripper model used for certification... Can't trust them manufacturers with these figures.
Also, I'd like to find out the weight difference between the Getrag M-DCT and ZF 8HP. And no Al fenders on the new car?
All in all, though, a lightweight 6MT G82 is still heavier than a loaded DCT F82.
Quote:
Originally Posted by swagon View Post
Weight figures of the base models were pulled from the available press materials on press.bmwgroup.com which all use the same method, i.e. DIN and EU/"Leergewicht EG". F82 09/2018 (post WLTP), G82 09/2020
DIN weight, as I eluded in my previous post, features a car in running order with 90% fuel and no optional equipment; EU/EG-Leergewicht weight adds 75 kg to that number. That means there is no need to add 10 kg (standard seats) to the 1,660-kg "base" M4. If 1,630 kg is what an M4 weighs with buckets, then you just add ca. 10 kg to that figure and you've got a car with standard seats. I did not see CCBs in the video, it is possible it had them; no argument here.
BMW Deutschland use EG-Leergewicht in their brochures. Standard equipment varied a lot on the F8x M3/4 which is why I highlighted some of the standard German features. Some markets got manual seats, base iDrive without sat nav, etc.
However, it is safe to say that BMW high-key pulled a Ferrari on us with the original weight figures of the F8x. Somehow the DCT lost weight over the years, too.
03/2014 (all DIN, 6MT/DCT)
F80: 1,520/1,560 kg
F82: 1,497/1,537 kg
01/2015 (Competition Package)
F80: 1,535/1,560 kg
F82: 1,515/1,540 kg
09/2018 (OPF, no CF driveshaft, non-Competition)
F80: dead
F82: 1,570/1,595 kg
Head hurts from these numbers, am out.
swagon, FWIW adding also this marketing to the conversation: published by BMW M on Sept 17, 2020 (source: here - German version):
Name:  BMW_M4_17Sep20.png
Views: 734
Size:  29.6 KB

'Claim to fame' or 'claim to shame' ? Maybe some soul-searching might inspire BMW M to do a humble reset 'back to basics':
Name:  BMW_TooMuch.jpg
Views: 676
Size:  61.8 KB

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      01-15-2021, 09:24 PM   #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehifi View Post
It's obvious the new m3/m4 is no longer a lightweight sports sedan/coupe and it's turned into a big GT car m5/m6. The dimensions are just that much bigger.

You'll have to wait for the new m2 for a true lightweight option and a shorter nimble wheelbase.
Exactly what I'm doing. The G87 M2 is my potential F80 replacement
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      01-15-2021, 09:40 PM   #247
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As others have said, we don't really know much until the cars are available to be weighed and driven. That said, I would be shocked if the G80 does not deliver better track times than F80...that would be almost suicidal on BMWs part. Those who measure success in 0 to 60 (AWD!) and Nürburgring times will be largely satisfied; those who don't want a bigger and heavier car....not so much.
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      01-17-2021, 02:52 AM   #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
His comments was only on the money as regards the person in the video if he has mind reading/psychic abilities to read the facial expressions of Klaus the way he does. In reality he is just so sure he is right (and that it is only his view that is correct) that he uses conjecture in interpreting facial expressions and also assume the rest of the world agrees with him that the G8x is a failure in every aspect.

He has been so critical of bmw lately and especially the G8x. When bmw release a video proving him wrong his response is attacking them while using an innocent bmw employee as his smoke screen to discredit the video.

His comments on Klaus was just cringeworthy and bullying.

When someone called him out in the comments he replied in typical bully fashion saying the guy was on a tangent and didn't comprehend...
Man, I dunno. I dont see what you point out at all.

On Cringeworthy - that is BMW latest ads on 7 series vs IX.

Bullying is calling its customer boomers.

US twitter account is run by a tone deaf guy-gal, and yet Robert went out and said that simply those guys at the top are responsible.

None of what you pointed out - bullying of Klaus, cringe etc is in that video. Of course the dude is confident in saying what he thinks. Since when is that a bad thing? Since bunch of idiots stormed the capital, and now god forbid anyone has an opinion? Come on.

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      01-28-2021, 10:32 PM   #249
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Looks like the G80 AWD may match the M5 CS in weight

https://www.bmwblog.com/2021/01/28/b...-weight-ratio/
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      01-29-2021, 01:45 PM   #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bm323 View Post
Looks like the G80 AWD may match the M5 CS in weight

https://www.bmwblog.com/2021/01/28/b...-weight-ratio/
I think the G80 AWD will still be lighter but apparently not by much

Nothing that a couple of bolt-ons, a tune and a set of track tires won't take care of
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      02-21-2021, 04:57 AM   #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apirumann View Post
His logic is;
1 - 50/50 is not great as BMW wants us to believe,
2 - Rear bias is better

G80/82
1 - Has no 50/50
2 - Has no rear bias either.

So, G80/G82 is even worse than a 50/50 car, yet he is arguing with the people who are not fond of this weight distribution ??? What is the point?

50/50 is perfect if there is driver sitting inside, usually the weight of driver is inclined toward the back of 50%. also you can not distribute evenly 50% of one half of the car compared to 50% of the weight of the other half therefore this engineering talk 50/50 is useless and has no relevance.
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      02-24-2021, 05:49 AM   #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by siberius View Post
50/50 is perfect if there is driver sitting inside, usually the weight of driver is inclined toward the back of 50%. also you can not distribute evenly 50% of one half of the car compared to 50% of the weight of the other half therefore this engineering talk 50/50 is useless and has no relevance.
I'll say it again, 50-50 is not "perfect" at all. That's marketing . For optimal handling, rear weight bias is preferable.
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      02-24-2021, 11:55 AM   #253
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Probably the last ICE M3/M4 so we can cry about the weight but this is it guys, buy them and keep them.
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      02-24-2021, 12:38 PM   #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I'll say it again, 50-50 is not "perfect" at all. That's marketing . For optimal handling, rear weight bias is preferable.
Agreed but it’s a good target for front engine cars. It’s naturally very difficult to achieve significant rear weight bias with most of the heavy components towards the front of the car. Unless you add dead weight in the trunk which, we’ll isn’t a very good solution.
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      02-24-2021, 12:45 PM   #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Agreed but it’s a good target for front engine cars. It’s naturally very difficult to achieve significant rear weight bias with most of the heavy components towards the front of the car. Unless you add dead weight in the trunk which, we’ll isn’t a very good solution.
BMW M should just come out with a mid-engine performance car NOT based on a base model. That fixes it. Take the fight to Porsche's doorstep.
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      02-24-2021, 01:14 PM   #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankiebones View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Agreed but it’s a good target for front engine cars. It’s naturally very difficult to achieve significant rear weight bias with most of the heavy components towards the front of the car. Unless you add dead weight in the trunk which, we’ll isn’t a very good solution.
BMW M should just come out with a mid-engine performance car NOT based on a base model. That fixes it. Take the fight to Porsche's doorstep.
Well, guess we will see not to far away how it turns out when we see a standalone M car…

M CEO basically confirmed in an interview there will be a M car coming, that is not existing otherwise, so a only M car. However, no hints on ice, hybrid or full EV, but within next 5 years.
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      02-24-2021, 04:04 PM   #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Agreed but it’s a good target for front engine cars. It’s naturally very difficult to achieve significant rear weight bias with most of the heavy components towards the front of the car. Unless you add dead weight in the trunk which, we’ll isn’t a very good solution.
My point is that 50-50 is not some sort of magical number. 51-49 is better that 52-48, 50-50 is better than 51-49, 49-51 is better than 50-50, and so on. It's a progression, there is no magical transition that happens at 50-50.
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      02-27-2021, 10:32 AM   #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
My point is that 50-50 is not some sort of magical number. 51-49 is better that 52-48, 50-50 is better than 51-49, 49-51 is better than 50-50, and so on. It's a progression, there is no magical transition that happens at 50-50.
Why is the rear bias better? A "bias" by definition has a negative meaning. Will you provide a legitimate source that explains this properly? I have read some about this but I cannot vouch for the logic of my sources.
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      02-27-2021, 10:43 AM   #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apirumann View Post
Why is the rear bias better? A "bias" by definition has a negative meaning. Will you provide a legitimate source that explains this properly? I have read some about this but I cannot vouch for the logic of my sources.
Basically to press the rear to the ground.

Weight in front ends in understeer when cornering.

There is a reason why mid/rear engines are better race cars.
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      02-27-2021, 12:50 PM   #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apirumann View Post
Why is the rear bias better? A "bias" by definition has a negative meaning. Will you provide a legitimate source that explains this properly? I have read some about this but I cannot vouch for the logic of my sources.
I agree, the term "bias" is not the most scientifically accurate here, but it is the one often used in the automotive jargon.

The reason why a greater rear weight distribution is favourable to create nimble handling has to do with polar moment of inertia. I am not sure how familiar you are with physics and engineering mechanics, but the polar moment is the "rotational mass" of an object; the greater the polar moment of inertia, the greater the force (torque) needed to change the rotational speed of the object. The polar moment of inertia of a mass element is defined by the product of the mass element with the square of the distance of the mass element to the centre of rotation (I = m * r^2). So the further the mass element is located from the centre of rotation, the greater its polar moment of inertia. That is why mid-engines cars are considered more nimble, because they have a lower natural polar moment of inertia since their mass is concentrated closer around the centre of gravity.

Further, when an object rotates around a point that is not its centre of gravity, the objects natural polar moment of inertia needs to be added to the polar moment of inertia created by the distance between the centre of gravity and centre of rotation.
  • Itotal = Iobject + mobject * r^2
  • where r is the distance between the centre of gravity of the object and the centre of rotation

And this later point is key as to why rear weight distribution is preferable for nimble handling in vehicle dynamics.

When a vehicle is going through a turn, it does not pivot around its centre of gravity, it pivots around the mid point between the rear wheels (on a front wheel steered vehicle). Imagine the front wheel steered at 90 degrees, and this becomes quite clear. So considering all of the above, it becomes obvious that the further the centre of gravity resides from the rear axle, the greater the force needed to get the car to change direction. And this is to the tune of the square of that distance (i.e. twice the distance requires 4 times the force). So the greater the weight distribution towards the front, the more the front tires need to work to get the car to change direction.

Now the above only remains 100% true when the front and rear wheel slip angles are the same. The rotation point will vary with varying degrees of slip angle difference between the front and rear axles. When the front slip angle is greater than the rear (understeer), the pivot point shifts further to the rear; and when the rear slip angle is greater than the front (oversteer) the pivot point shift towards the front. In the extreme case of a spin, the car pivots almost around the centre point of the front axle. And that's where it becomes interesting from a vehicle dynamics standpoint. A car with a rear weight distribution will require much more effort (force) to recover from a spin because the centre of gravity is located further from the front axle. Remember that unrecoverable snap oversteer reputation of early mid engine Ferraris, Toyota MR2 and 911?

I don't recall exactly where I specifically read all this, but I got to learn this while working on the design of our Formula SAE back in my engineering studies. If ever you want to dig deeper on the topic, two books that were useful to me at the time were "Fundamentals of Vehicle Dynamics" by T.D. Gillespie and "Race Car Vehicle Dynamics" by W.F. & D.L. Milliken, both published by the SAE.
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      02-27-2021, 12:52 PM   #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorp!on View Post
Basically to press the rear to the ground.

Weight in front ends in understeer when cornering.

There is a reason why mid/rear engines are better race cars.
The explanation is a bit more complex than this (see post above), but you got the conclusion right
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      02-27-2021, 01:19 PM   #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
The explanation is a bit more complex than this (see post above), but you got the conclusion right
Thank you for the exact explanation, I just wanted to keep it simple

I do work for a Formula 1 Team and I am interested in this sport since I have been 6 yrs old so I basically know this stuff, altough of course not as detailed as you but I get the physics behind

Thank you !
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      02-27-2021, 01:45 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Scorp!on View Post
I do work for a Formula 1 Team
That's super

Can you tell which one ?

(even if your nationality might provide a clue)
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      02-27-2021, 01:52 PM   #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
That's super

Can you tell which one ?

(even if your nationality might provide a clue)
Hehe yeah I think you suggest right, it's Sauber (known at the moment as Alfa Romeo Racing Orlen)
But this is just a naming sponsor, we're not owned by Alfa
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