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      12-11-2020, 04:28 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Jacky Treehorn View Post
Take your new M3 and add your tunes, downpipes, bigger turbos. Get yourself 900hp. 3900lb car. It's my personal opinion that a 900hp M3 will not be the most versatile, well rounded vehicle anymore. It takes on a different character....it may be faster in the 1/4 mile than the original car, but it's no longer a balanced and well rounded vehicle in my opinion. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but I've been down this road before....and just because you have more horsepower and run faster 1/4 miles does not mean you run faster road-course times. It doesn't necessarily work that way. You do reach a point where the car can no longer effectively use that power unless you are using it in a straight line. Now if drag racing is your thing, have at it.

I also come from a motorcycle background. The guys with lower powered bikes often times would be turning better laps than dudes with these insane liter bikes. The liter bike has more power, more straight line speed....but they couldn't even tap into that power or use it. We use to make fun of those guys because their tires would have a giant flat spot in the center because all they do it go fast in a straight line....some of us don't view that as well rounded and prefer to use the full extent of the motor as it was intended.
I think all of us would agree road racing is more fun than drag racing/stop light racing. But how much time do we spend driving at the track vs getting an opening in traffic to have some fun? For most of us, we can only do one of those with 98+% of our time in the car.

I've never seen a car get slower around a track with more power, ever. Even when you put the same pro rider on a 600cc and 1000cc bike, they almost always have better times on the 1000cc bike unless it's a super tight track and the weight advantage of the 600 matters more than power. You just have to learn how to modulate the throttle. It's not actually changing the balance of the car at all.
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      12-11-2020, 06:58 PM   #24
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Hello! Some guys are arguing in the void and either didn't read or understand the first post. The points are highlighted below to aid your understanding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whatnotsomuchf80 View Post
I see a lot of posts with people disheartened by the G80's weight, power, looks, etc. Many saying they'd rather get an M5 or even a GTR. For those of you with modded F80's out there, you know how easy it is to add massive power w downpipes and an E85 tune, let alone turbos and PI. For most, traction was the issue.

I personally think a highly modded *AWD* G80 should hit insane numbers as in high 2's on a 0-60 and 9's in the 1/4 mile. An M5 shouldn't go past stage 2 without worrying about rods, and GTRs need upgraded transmissions among other things. The new ZAF should be able to handle high torque loads, and no crank hub worries with the S58 engine. When the new AWD G80's come out w massive power gains it will be a massive straight line acceleration beast. For reference, please see new X3M gains on the S58.

Who else thinks we will see such numbers?
The quarter mile is therefore useless or irrelevant to some who are not into mods to get a 9 second quarter mile. Dig it? Nothing intellectual or dishonest.

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Originally Posted by gpdriver17 View Post
With a turbo upgrade the S58 on an X3 M is around 800 awhp.
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      12-11-2020, 07:23 PM   #25
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not sure what the point of all that speed is when you

a) can't use it on the road without risking a misdemeanor and losing your license
b) it provides very little emotion

you get used to the speed, regardless of car -- when I first got into my f80 I thought it was the fastest thing in the world.. now, it barely gets a rise out of me.. so if people are purchasing this car simply because of 1/4 times.. i guess that needs to be all you care about.

I'd rather a car that's fun to drive in the twisties, even if it has less HP.
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      12-11-2020, 08:43 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
This is an intellectually dishonest statement. There can not be a discussion of a performance vehicle without taking speed or acceleration into account or we would all be driving BRZ's or Mitata's. A competitive nurburgring time cannot be accomplished by a vehicle that does not perform well in the 1/4 therefore it matters to you. It's one thing to say you have zero interest in drag racing but another to say that 1/4 mile time doesn't matter because it absoultely factors in with we well-rounded performance car which is apparently important to you.
Sorry bud, completely wrong. Track times have nothing to do with how good a car can launch. What matters on track is acceleration from a roll.
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      12-11-2020, 08:53 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whatnotsomuchf80 View Post
I see a lot of posts with people disheartened by the G80's weight, power, looks, etc. Many saying they'd rather get an M5 or even a GTR. For those of you with modded F80's out there, you know how easy it is to add massive power w downpipes and an E85 tune, let alone turbos and PI. For most, traction was the issue.

I personally think a highly modded *AWD* G80 should hit insane numbers as in high 2's on a 0-60 and 9's in the 1/4 mile. An M5 shouldn't go past stage 2 without worrying about rods, and GTRs need upgraded transmissions among other things. The new ZAF should be able to handle high torque loads, and no crank hub worries with the S58 engine. When the new AWD G80's come out w massive power gains it will be a massive straight line acceleration beast. For reference, please see new X3M gains on the S58.

Who else thinks we will see such numbers?
NO, will certainly not happen. The std competition has already a boost threshold uptil 2800rpm indicating as a daily driver it's already over stressed as it is.
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      12-11-2020, 09:41 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by gpdriver17 View Post
I think all of us would agree road racing is more fun than drag racing/stop light racing. But how much time do we spend driving at the track vs getting an opening in traffic to have some fun? For most of us, we can only do one of those with 98+% of our time in the car.

I've never seen a car get slower around a track with more power, ever. Even when you put the same pro rider on a 600cc and 1000cc bike, they almost always have better times on the 1000cc bike unless it's a super tight track and the weight advantage of the 600 matters more than power. You just have to learn how to modulate the throttle. It's not actually changing the balance of the car at all.

The usable powerband is an important concept...I know everyone on this forum has somehow driven a 900hp monster....but the reality is that the way power comes out of a 900hp turbocharged car is different than the way it comes out of an engineered factory 500hp BMW. I appreciate the fact that the engineers that build these cars nowadays develop them along with factory racing drivers on road courses and real world road applications. It's pretty impressive. To understand why the "powerband" characteristics matter, well...you just have to be someone that drives cars on track often enough to understand the difference.

I would much rather lose weight rather than gain THAT much power. You have to understand that for someone like me, I meant it when I said I don't care if the car runs a sub 9 second 1/4 mile.

Everyone is entitled to buy one and make it something different. If you think a 900hp M3 will drive/behave/put down power the same way as a factory M3 - it's just not the way it works. Like I said, a 900hp M3 will take on a much different character.
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      12-11-2020, 09:51 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whatnotsomuchf80 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpdriver17 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by AhsanU View Post
Pretty fair to say most people aren't buying M cars for the same reason they used to a few generations back.

It's strange how most performance enthusiasts these days just rave about quarter mile times and horsepower figures. I drove past a random mechanics shop the other day in my 991 GT3 (with loads of aftermarket aero that ultimately make it slower in a straight line, funny enough) when a dude screamed out "I'll smoke you in the quarter mile in my Civic", I politely grinned and said "that's great!" But I don't understand the obsession with horsepower and quarter mile times. More power is awesome, but it's not the be all and all of things. I'm aware everyone owns their cars for different reasons, but horsepower numbers and quarter mile times ultimately boil down to how deep your wallet is, not how skilled you are at anything other than reacting to lights.

Whatever makes you happy, I guess
Yeah, they have changed a lot. I used to love light cars I could blast down twisty roads on or take to the track. A Mazda Miata was actually my favorite car, over the E36 and E46 M3. But I moved to a city where I'm not close to any good roads or race tracks. The best I can do is go fast when traffic opens up. So these days 0-60 and 1/4 mile make a car fun to me. I think a lot of people feel the same with traffic these days. It's not about proving I'm better than anyone else, it's just fun.
trust me everyone gets enjoyment today out of street acceleration from stop to stop. For all the big talk I bet hardly many people here track their cars that often. And on the street I prefer AWD for better traction and honestly safety
Nothing to do with tracking. Had F90 M5 it was fast great I didn't like it.

Unsorted suspension heavyweight with poor steering. The M3 should have been min 300lbs lighter. Everything worsens with weight. The car won't feel anything like previous gen

I like the feel of a lighter more dialed in car even if I'm not tracking it and I lose a couple tenths in a quarter mile. That to me is more fun and out and out speed you get used to.
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      12-11-2020, 09:54 PM   #30
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there is not a single performance improvement gained by adding more weight. handling, braking, accelaration, cooling, endurance, consumables etc. are all negatively impacted. The feel of the car is completely diferent.
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      12-11-2020, 10:33 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooth 330i View Post
there is not a single performance improvement gained by adding more weight. handling, braking, accelaration, cooling, endurance, consumables etc. are all negatively impacted. The feel of the car is completely diferent.
Change that to dead weight and you are closer to the truth.
Functional weight as larger engine, larger brakes, wider tires, bigger aero, cooling liquids etc. all can add to performance.
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      12-12-2020, 07:12 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whatnotsomuchf80 View Post
what if I told you... the point of fast cars.... is to go fast? and also, if you love track cars get a GT3 or GT4
And if you want a real fast 1/4 mile car dont get an M3. Your track car comment invalidates your own argument for the G80 as a drag car.
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      12-12-2020, 07:37 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whatnotsomuchf80 View Post
what if I told you... the point of fast cars.... is to go fast? and also, if you love track cars get a GT3 or GT4
I feel like if people could afford a GT3, they would be buying that 90% of the time. Not a really good comparison. Unless you are looking at a 2010 ish year. They are AMAZING TO DRIVE and the sound is just orgasmic
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      12-12-2020, 09:20 AM   #34
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The M3 is a dual purpose car that can handle track duty which makes it a compromsie. The majority of these cars aren't being tracked despite having the capability of handling track duty for someone who's going there to have fun. Which means, the majority are used as regular commuters where the finer metrics are moot since you won't reach the limits of the car on the street.

The bit about quarter mile being irrelevant is ironic because if it is, then all the other metrics would be deemed moot. If some of you are as hard-core a tracker as you proclaim then why not buy a Lotus Exige/Evora? Why get a compromised M3 with leather, so-so electric steering, turbo charge motor and fancy electronics etc for track duty. That right there says you're just a hobbyist and chances even with a 3600 lb M3 you may fall short of beating someone in a G80 on the track.

It's ok to not like the car but proclaiming it as being a deficient track car as if to imply you're a pro racer is comical. All cars are getting bigger and more tech laden, we either accept it or go buy one of the classics like the clown-shoe. Point is, if you are a serious track driver, then all modern M3's would not be ideal for that task. There are much better cars for that singular purpose. Except most of those cars are devoid of the luxuries one expects in their M3's. Therefore, one would be better off having two cars and therein lies the dilemma. No dual purpose car will excel in all areas because it's a compromise.
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      12-12-2020, 09:32 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmk08 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatnotsomuchf80 View Post
what if I told you... the point of fast cars.... is to go fast? and also, if you love track cars get a GT3 or GT4
And if you want a real fast 1/4 mile car dont get an M3. Your track car comment invalidates your own argument for the G80 as a drag car.
Really? Let's see what fully built AWD G80 M3's are capable of next year. Bc I do like 1/4 mile, 60-130, and 0-60 times and it will be an insane car to do that in a 4 door pretty luxurious daily driver. Especially for the price.
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      12-12-2020, 09:35 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SickGTR View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatnotsomuchf80 View Post
what if I told you... the point of fast cars.... is to go fast? and also, if you love track cars get a GT3 or GT4
I feel like if people could afford a GT3, they would be buying that 90% of the time. Not a really good comparison. Unless you are looking at a 2010 ish year. They are AMAZING TO DRIVE and the sound is just orgasmic
You can actually find 2015 GT3's in the very low $100's. If you're buying an AWD G80 M3 w decent options it will be in the $90k's and then tag on the tuning and such it'll be close to a used GT3 for sure. Also please see I did mention Cayman GT4's which are even cheaper
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      12-12-2020, 01:43 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Change that to dead weight and you are closer to the truth.
Functional weight as larger engine, larger brakes, wider tires, bigger aero, cooling liquids etc. all can add to performance.
How about reducing dead weight to compensate for the added "functional" weight ?
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      12-12-2020, 02:38 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Sorry bud, completely wrong. Track times have nothing to do with how good a car can launch. What matters on track is acceleration from a roll.
Trap speed from 1/4 mile is telling of how much power is actually available as two cars with identical 1/4 mile times and different trap speeds means the car with the faster trap speed is the one that's going to put down more power in all situations outside of launch. It's matters whether you agree or not. 0-60 is a bragging rights measurement but 1/4 time and trap speed is telling of how much power the vehicle is packing.
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      12-12-2020, 03:37 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
There can not be a discussion of a performance vehicle without taking speed or acceleration into account or we would all be driving BRZ's or Mitata's.
I think that learning to drive these cars fast around corners would make everyone a much better driver rather than giving them the false belief (and over confidence) that you’re a “better” driver coz you can floor it in a straight line with TC fully on since the car does most of the work for you.

For me personally, the straightline thrust gets old fast, but the fast cornering never gets old.

Going fast because of me puts a much bigger smile on my face than going fast because of my car.
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      12-12-2020, 04:02 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
This is an intellectually dishonest statement. There can not be a discussion of a performance vehicle without taking speed or acceleration into account or we would all be driving BRZ's or Mitata's. A competitive nurburgring time cannot be accomplished by a vehicle that does not perform well in the 1/4 therefore it matters to you. It's one thing to say you have zero interest in drag racing but another to say that 1/4 mile time doesn't matter because it absoultely factors in with we well-rounded performance car which is apparently important to you.
Sorry bud, completely wrong. Track times have nothing to do with how good a car can launch. What matters on track is acceleration from a roll.
Trap speed from 1/4 mile is telling of how much power is actually available as two cars with identical 1/4 mile times and different trap speeds means the car with the faster trap speed is the one that's going to put down more power in all situations outside of launch. It's matters whether you agree or not. 0-60 is a bragging rights measurement but 1/4 time and trap speed is telling of how much power the vehicle is packing.
Yes, I agree. 1/4 mile trap speed is relevant as it is indicative of top end acceleration potential. But I haven't seen trap speed mentioned thus far, the thread title is about 0-60mph TIMES and 1/4 mile TIMES. You were even specific about quarter mile TIME in the post I replied to. All those are mainly about having a good launch, which is irrelevant to lap times, exactly as I have stated.
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      12-12-2020, 04:07 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
How about reducing dead weight to compensate for the added "functional" weight ?
I’m all for it

We all want a 1000kg car with 500+ hp V8 revving to 10000 rpm that has a 5 star crash rating, can carry 4 in comfort plus a dog, audiophile hifi, full leather, 10 piston brakes, 20 inch wheels, 300mm wide tires, oil cooler that can sustain a day of top rpm track driving, a quite cabin, parking cameras etc, etc. And cost no more than $70k...

This time we get a lot more power, upgraded tech., more space and likely more grip but we pay the price in weight. No free lunch. The F8X had a price as well as a tiny hp gain and a smaller less soulful engine.
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      12-12-2020, 04:20 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I’m all for it

We all want a 1000kg car with 500+ hp V8 revving to 10000 rpm that has a 5 star crash rating, can carry 4 in comfort plus a dog, audiophile hifi, full leather, 10 piston brakes, 20 inch wheels, 300mm wide tires, oil cooler that can sustain a day of top rpm track driving, a quite cabin, parking cameras etc, etc. And cost no more than $70k...
Nope, don't count me in that "we", I remain realistic...

Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
This time we get a lot more power, upgraded tech., more space and likely more grip but we pay the price in weight. No free lunch.
We "pay the price" because BMW did not invest much in cutting weight. I would have taken less power for less weight, but why not have both like we had with the F8X.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
The F8X had a price as well as a tiny hp gain and a smaller less soulful engine.
That's on paper only. When the F8X was launched, the modest power increase was my main gripe about the car. This until I got to learn about official power rating standards (SAE and DIN) and how it is not possible to directly compare power ratings between NA and Turbocharged engines. The fact that my 2015 M4 was ~12mph faster than my 2008 M3 on the back-straight of my local track tells me it put down much more power that the "official" 11hp suggests. So we had less weight PLUS a fair bit more of real world power with the F8X.
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      12-12-2020, 04:24 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Nope, don't count me in that "we", I remain realistic...

We "pay the price" because BMW did not invest much in cutting weight. I would have taken less power for less weight, but why not have both like we had with the F8X.

That's on paper only. When the F8X was launched, the modest power increase was my main gripe about the car. This until I got to learn about official power rating standards (SAE and DIN) and how it is not possible to directly compare power ratings between NA and Turbocharged engines. The fact that my 2015 M4 was ~12mph faster than my 2008 M3 on the back-straight of my local tells me it put down much more power that the "official" 11hp suggests. So we had less weight PLUS a fair bit more of real world power with the F8X.
And the 2021 4700 lbs Panamera TTS did what ring time vs. any M3 to date? Not saying weight isn’t important but it’s not all and everything. The 3800 lbs G82 isn’t ready to be trashed yet as said before.

And I don’t think you are very realistic, just look at what 4 person car you can find today that weigh 3500 lbs at any price? There is a reason for that.

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      12-12-2020, 04:25 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
And the 2021 4700 lbs Panamera TTS did what ring time vs. any M3 to date?
How enjoyable is it to toss around?

The M5 is also bloody fast, but I enjoyed it less around the track than I did my M4 or the way slower 992C4 I also drove that day on track.
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