BMW M3 and M4 - The Icons
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
home
G80 BMW M3 and M4 General Topics BMW M3 (G80), M4 (G82), CSL and 3.0 CSL General Forum

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      01-18-2021, 02:33 PM   #155
frankiebones
Brigadier General
frankiebones's Avatar
5297
Rep
3,056
Posts

Drives: Fire Orange G80 6MT
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Long Island, NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaiv View Post
Take it easy friend, my argument said nothing about BMW killing the 6MT or any of that nonsense.

I didn't see anything about the 6MT not being able to handle the power in this thread. If it's there, I missed it. Either way IDK if that's a valid argument. The ZF seems to handle the F10 M5's 500tq fine.
It's not you, it's this f***ing thread. Power issues have been discussed by BMW numerous times, sometimes implicitly and rarely explicitly.

Do you mean the 6MT with the F10?
__________________
Fire Orange 6MT G80 (Miss July, 2021 Cover of Bimmerpost)
SMB M3 CS (gone)
YMB F80 6MT (gone)
Appreciate 0
      01-18-2021, 04:11 PM   #156
xlover
Colonel
No_Country
2191
Rep
2,554
Posts

Drives: 2023 X7 40i
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Boston

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankiebones View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaiv View Post
Take it easy friend, my argument said nothing about BMW killing the 6MT or any of that nonsense.

I didn't see anything about the 6MT not being able to handle the power in this thread. If it's there, I missed it. Either way IDK if that's a valid argument. The ZF seems to handle the F10 M5's 500tq fine.
It's not you, it's this f***ing thread. Power issues have been discussed by BMW numerous times, sometimes implicitly and rarely explicitly.

Do you mean the 6MT with the F10?
As explicit as it comes!!!
Attached Images
 
Appreciate 2
SYT_Shadow11421.00
      01-18-2021, 04:18 PM   #157
M3AWD
Lieutenant Colonel
M3AWD's Avatar
United_States
3178
Rep
1,902
Posts

Drives: 2022 G80 M3 AWD
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Atlanta, GA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by xlover View Post
As explicit as it comes!!!
Yes it's most likely the torque rating
__________________

2022 G80 M3 Comp M xDrive
Appreciate 0
      01-18-2021, 04:41 PM   #158
PLF69
Colonel
PLF69's Avatar
3763
Rep
2,700
Posts

Drives: 2023 M3
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Quebec

iTrader: (0)

[QUOTE=frankiebones;27132959]
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaiv View Post

Do you mean the 6MT with the F10?
Indeed if it is the same transmission (98% sure it is) it is a weak argument from BMW.

On the forums everyone who owned a M/T F10 M5 talked about how fun the extra dimension was even trough the car was better performing with a DCT.
__________________
Fun/HPDE: 2023 M3 6MT Individual Malachite
Past:2023 M4 CSL, 2022 M4C Vert, 2020 M340i, 2018 M2, 2015 M235i, 2008 135i 550whp
Daily: 2023 X5 45e
Daily/Family: 2021 Atlas Cross Sport 3.6
Appreciate 0
      01-18-2021, 10:20 PM   #159
brad850csi
Colonel
1310
Rep
2,349
Posts

Drives: 16 F13 M6 Comp
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankiebones View Post
It's not you, it's this f***ing thread. Power issues have been discussed by BMW numerous times, sometimes implicitly and rarely explicitly.

Do you mean the 6MT with the F10?
I think the problem is that we know what they are saying is a lie. The S63TU was running with 423kw/575ps and 680nm/502lbft quite happily in a heavier car.

I call total utter BS on this being a reason.
__________________
SCOTT26 "So as an admirer of the M5 and a potential customer of an M5 Touring. I would run naked around the streets of Garching if they were to offer one."
Appreciate 0
      01-19-2021, 10:10 AM   #160
frankiebones
Brigadier General
frankiebones's Avatar
5297
Rep
3,056
Posts

Drives: Fire Orange G80 6MT
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Long Island, NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by brad850csi View Post
I think the problem is that we know what they are saying is a lie. The S63TU was running with 423kw/575ps and 680nm/502lbft quite happily in a heavier car.

I call total utter BS on this being a reason.
Then why not give us the full monty? Why lie? The simplest explanation is usually the correct one, according to Occam's razor, and in this case the simplest explanation is they are telling the truth. We don't know the details or specs on the 6MT they used on the G80 yet.

If it's about money, they could have made the 8AT more expensive and captured the revenue.
__________________
Fire Orange 6MT G80 (Miss July, 2021 Cover of Bimmerpost)
SMB M3 CS (gone)
YMB F80 6MT (gone)
Appreciate 2
SYT_Shadow11421.00
VetteGuy845.50
      01-19-2021, 10:11 AM   #161
frankiebones
Brigadier General
frankiebones's Avatar
5297
Rep
3,056
Posts

Drives: Fire Orange G80 6MT
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Long Island, NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by xlover View Post
As explicit as it comes!!!
Didn't have the time to find it lol but I knew it was in the Q&A.
By the way, the questions they answer are definitely staged and spoon fed by an account they control.
__________________
Fire Orange 6MT G80 (Miss July, 2021 Cover of Bimmerpost)
SMB M3 CS (gone)
YMB F80 6MT (gone)
Appreciate 0
      01-19-2021, 02:27 PM   #162
kaiv
IG: limited.slip
United_States
321
Rep
1,912
Posts

Drives: E46 M3 in a 325i Touring body!
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (31)

We've established that BMW does have a 6MT in its arsenal that can handle more power and torque on the V8s. Which BTW is the same general architecture they've been using for years and adapted to many models.

I'll tell you what I think the true reason for the detune is (and you were right there!): cost.

The V8s use a beefier twin-disk clutch. T̶h̶e̶ ̶i̶6̶s̶ ̶h̶o̶w̶e̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶u̶s̶e̶ ̶a̶ ̶m̶o̶r̶e̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶n̶d̶a̶r̶d̶ ̶s̶i̶n̶g̶l̶e̶ ̶d̶i̶s̶k̶ ̶c̶l̶u̶t̶c̶h̶.̶ edit1: was wrong here, the S55 got a twin-disk

I imagine BMW didn't want to spend the $ necessary to come up with a new/upgraded clutch for the more powerful i6 (especially since they probably don't foresee selling many). Instead it's probably getting the same/similar hardware that's on the F80 hence the identical torque rating.

edit2: nailed it, same clutch as the F8x

Last edited by kaiv; 02-19-2021 at 12:12 AM..
Appreciate 0
      01-19-2021, 03:16 PM   #163
frankiebones
Brigadier General
frankiebones's Avatar
5297
Rep
3,056
Posts

Drives: Fire Orange G80 6MT
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Long Island, NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaiv View Post
The V8s use a beefier twin-disk clutch. The i6s however use a more standard single disk clutch.
Then it's not the same transmission as the F10 and the argument has some flaws my friend.
__________________
Fire Orange 6MT G80 (Miss July, 2021 Cover of Bimmerpost)
SMB M3 CS (gone)
YMB F80 6MT (gone)
Appreciate 0
      01-19-2021, 04:35 PM   #164
kaiv
IG: limited.slip
United_States
321
Rep
1,912
Posts

Drives: E46 M3 in a 325i Touring body!
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (31)

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankiebones View Post
Then it's not the same transmission as the F10 and the argument has some flaws my friend.
Grasping at straws there.

The ZF S6-53 found in the F10 M5 has also been fitted in 6 cylinder cars. Of course they are not 100% identical but it is still the same general architecture as I've mentioned earlier.

Like a wheel can be made in a variety of sizes and offsets, transmissions are tweaked based on application and fitment.

The clutch is 100% different.
Appreciate 0
      01-20-2021, 09:18 AM   #165
frankiebones
Brigadier General
frankiebones's Avatar
5297
Rep
3,056
Posts

Drives: Fire Orange G80 6MT
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Long Island, NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaiv View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankiebones View Post
Then it's not the same transmission as the F10 and the argument has some flaws my friend.
Grasping at straws there.

The ZF S6-53 found in the F10 M5 has also been fitted in 6 cylinder cars. Of course they are not 100% identical but it is still the same general architecture as I've mentioned earlier.

Like a wheel can be made in a variety of sizes and offsets, transmissions are tweaked based on application and fitment.

The clutch is 100% different.
Sir, with respect, you're the one who thinks BMW M is lying. Now THAT is some serious straw grasping.

When I tune my car, I'll be sure to let you know if I blow my clutch. That will be the only true test. If people who tune have reliability issues.
__________________
Fire Orange 6MT G80 (Miss July, 2021 Cover of Bimmerpost)
SMB M3 CS (gone)
YMB F80 6MT (gone)
Appreciate 0
      01-20-2021, 02:26 PM   #166
kaiv
IG: limited.slip
United_States
321
Rep
1,912
Posts

Drives: E46 M3 in a 325i Touring body!
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (31)

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankiebones View Post
Sir, with respect, you're the one who thinks BMW M is lying. Now THAT is some serious straw grasping.
Please show me where I said that.
Appreciate 0
      01-20-2021, 02:51 PM   #167
frankiebones
Brigadier General
frankiebones's Avatar
5297
Rep
3,056
Posts

Drives: Fire Orange G80 6MT
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Long Island, NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaiv View Post
Please show me where I said that.
confused you for another gentleman, my apologies. I share the responsibility with the iPhone Bimmerpost app, but the fault is mine.
__________________
Fire Orange 6MT G80 (Miss July, 2021 Cover of Bimmerpost)
SMB M3 CS (gone)
YMB F80 6MT (gone)
Appreciate 0
      01-20-2021, 10:40 PM   #168
brad850csi
Colonel
1310
Rep
2,349
Posts

Drives: 16 F13 M6 Comp
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankiebones View Post
confused you for another gentleman, my apologies. I share the responsibility with the iPhone Bimmerpost app, but the fault is mine.
Yeah that was me and I'm happy to say it. I recall a few tuned 6MT S63TU cars and they were fine as well.
__________________
SCOTT26 "So as an admirer of the M5 and a potential customer of an M5 Touring. I would run naked around the streets of Garching if they were to offer one."
Appreciate 1
      01-21-2021, 04:58 AM   #169
frankiebones
Brigadier General
frankiebones's Avatar
5297
Rep
3,056
Posts

Drives: Fire Orange G80 6MT
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Long Island, NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by brad850csi View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankiebones View Post
confused you for another gentleman, my apologies. I share the responsibility with the iPhone Bimmerpost app, but the fault is mine.
Yeah that was me and I'm happy to say it. I recall a few tuned 6MT S63TU cars and they were fine as well.
Time will tell. Also interested to see the actual power and torque differences on the dyno for 6MT vs Comp G80's.
__________________
Fire Orange 6MT G80 (Miss July, 2021 Cover of Bimmerpost)
SMB M3 CS (gone)
YMB F80 6MT (gone)
Appreciate 0
      01-21-2021, 06:12 AM   #170
CanAutM3
General
CanAutM3's Avatar
Canada
21105
Rep
20,741
Posts

Drives: 2021 911 turbo
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankiebones View Post
Time will tell. Also interested to see the actual power and torque differences on the dyno for 6MT vs Comp G80's.
The relative difference will likely be less than on paper due to the lower losses of the 6MT.
__________________
Porsche 911 turbo 2021 992 GT Silver

Previous cars: M4cs 2019 F82 Limerock Grey / M4 2015 F82 Silverstone / M3 2008 E92 Silverstone / M3 2002 E46 Carbon Black
Appreciate 0
      01-21-2021, 06:29 AM   #171
Scorp!on
Captain
Switzerland
1510
Rep
781
Posts

Drives: BMW M3 G80 MT BSM
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Zurich, Switzerland

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
The relative difference will likely be less than on paper due to the lower losses of the 6MT.
What do you mean by "lower losses of the 6MT" ?
Sorry my english is not perfect....
Appreciate 0
      01-21-2021, 06:35 AM   #172
CanAutM3
General
CanAutM3's Avatar
Canada
21105
Rep
20,741
Posts

Drives: 2021 911 turbo
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorp!on View Post
What do you mean by "lower losses of the 6MT" ?
Sorry my english is not perfect....
There is less power lost in a manual transmission from gear meshing and oil churning than in a planetary automatic. That loss is reflected in heat, there is a reason why the 8AT needs an oil cooler while the 6MT does not. A manual transmission also has less rotating inertia than a planetary auto which will also have it read higher power numbers on chassis inertia dyno.
__________________
Porsche 911 turbo 2021 992 GT Silver

Previous cars: M4cs 2019 F82 Limerock Grey / M4 2015 F82 Silverstone / M3 2008 E92 Silverstone / M3 2002 E46 Carbon Black
Appreciate 3
JTO245246.50
Scorp!on1510.00
      01-23-2021, 08:43 AM   #173
DPHTOY
Private
149
Rep
92
Posts

Drives: 2020 M4 Vert. 2019 X5 40i M-Sp
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Lexington SC

iTrader: (0)

I can't understand why anyone wants to kill off the manual. I have owned two F83s, one with the DCT and one with the 6MT. While I agree the 6MT is slower the driving experience is so much more fun and engaging. Plus the BMW 6MT is just about perfect. The clutch is weighted perfectly and the pedals are set up for heel to toe. The shifter linkage is precise like a bolt action rifle. The added driver involvement more than out weighs a 1/10th of a second or so to 60mph.
Appreciate 1
SYT_Shadow11421.00
      01-23-2021, 09:08 AM   #174
wtwo3
Major General
wtwo3's Avatar
17864
Rep
5,463
Posts

Drives: 23 X7 40i; 23 M3; 24 cooper s
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: IL

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlterZgo View Post
I agree with almost all of what you're saying, but I chuckle at the comment that the manual has never been about having the fastest car. I guess you must be pretty young as even back maybe 20 yrs ago, the manual versions of most cars were almost always the quickest and fastest variants, and typically by a wide margin. Look up any old R&T or C&D car test and if they have an auto vs. manual variant, you will see that the manuals are typcially about 1 second quicker in both 0-60 and 1/4 mile acceleration times than the automatics.

Even Porsche GT cars were exclusively manual until the 991 GT3. Not only that, but the McLaren F1 was the quickest accelerating and fastest top speed car for about 15 yrs and it had a 6 speed manual.

Of course, manuals were not always just about speed, but about the joy and experience of feeling directly connected to the transmission and what's going on with the car. Even though the G80 M3 6MT is underpowered and undoubtedly slower than the auto, I will 100% be getting the manual. In the past 20 yrs or so, I've made the mistake of buying 2 automatic cars. Both cars, literally as soon as I brought them home, I would immediately begin thinking about how to get rid of it and get back into a manual.

I'll keep buying manuals as long as they make them and when they finally stop, instead of buying an automatic, I'm going to go right to the electric powered self driving egg with no steering wheel and no transmission controls.
I'm sorry... you've definitely got this backwards. Older manual cars weren't quicker by design.... they were quicker because automatic gearboxes weren't nearly as advanced as they are now. Performance cars were manual by default, and automatic was an added option (if it was even available). So the car was already quick and already a manual, it was never about making it a manual for the purpose of being faster.

If you take equally specced performance cars today, one with manual, one with automatic, the automatic will always be quicker.

There's 2 reasons manuals are disappearing today:

1) In high performance cars, modern automatics are significantly quicker. A human can't even hope to shift as quickly, and where speed/performance is the name of the game, you go with the more efficient option.

2) In regular consumer cars, manufacturers don't have incentive to try and steer the market one way or another in regards to gearboxes. They're simply responding to market demands. If most people choose automatics, it's not because of some conspiracy to kill manuals, it's because most people (shockingly, most consumers aren't car enthusiasts) prefer to not have to shift their own gears.

I'm not pro auto or manual, I see virtue in both, but today, the ONLY reason to offer a manual in the US market is because of enthusiasts preferring to shift their own gears as it offers additional driver engagement. Unfortunately, enthusiasts represent an extremely tiny minority of the auto consumer market.
__________________
2023 BMW X7 xDrive40i
2023 BMW M3 6MT
2024 Mini Cooper S Convertible

'20 BMW m340i... '20 BMW X5 40i... '16 Infiniti Q50 RS 400... '10 Lexus RX 350... '08 Lexus IS 350... '00 Nissan Maxima... '93 Nissan Maxima

Last edited by wtwo3; 01-23-2021 at 09:17 AM..
Appreciate 5
EXE462097.00
Scorp!on1510.00
Dr.Deep1827.00
Bahamut709.50
VetteGuy845.50
      02-14-2021, 09:45 PM   #175
trey100
Colonel
trey100's Avatar
United_States
1125
Rep
2,564
Posts

Drives: 2020 M2 Competition
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New York

iTrader: (0)

All companies do this when they need to implement something that could be deemed unfavorable whether to their clients or employees. Rather than say "we are changing xyz" they set the table so that the change seems to happen either naturally or due to another reason - as long as they can have plausible deniability.

If M division wanted a manual, they would have spent the money upgrading the manual to withstand the torque. When they didn't do this, that is the tell that they want it gone. Now if they can use it with no additional headaches (like in the detuned G87 or base G80) then great. But their heart is clearly not in it.

All that being said (and I'm a manual guy) - isn't this far too big for a manual? I feel like at some point, it's just getting a manual to say you have a manual. The F80 is already pushing it.
Appreciate 0
      02-15-2021, 06:24 AM   #176
CanAutM3
General
CanAutM3's Avatar
Canada
21105
Rep
20,741
Posts

Drives: 2021 911 turbo
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by trey100 View Post
All companies do this when they need to implement something that could be deemed unfavorable whether to their clients or employees. Rather than say "we are changing xyz" they set the table so that the change seems to happen either naturally or due to another reason - as long as they can have plausible deniability.

If M division wanted a manual, they would have spent the money upgrading the manual to withstand the torque. When they didn't do this, that is the tell that they want it gone. Now if they can use it with no additional headaches (like in the detuned G87 or base G80) then great. But their heart is clearly not in it.

All that being said (and I'm a manual guy) - isn't this far too big for a manual? I feel like at some point, it's just getting a manual to say you have a manual. The F80 is already pushing it.
I believe it is about compromise: offer a manual at the least possible cost. And it is way cheaper to tune the ECU for lower the power/torque output than it is to develop a beefier transmission.
__________________
Porsche 911 turbo 2021 992 GT Silver

Previous cars: M4cs 2019 F82 Limerock Grey / M4 2015 F82 Silverstone / M3 2008 E92 Silverstone / M3 2002 E46 Carbon Black
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:26 PM.




g80
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST