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View Poll Results: DCT or traditional AT?
I prefer a DCT. 235 60.57%
I prefer a traditional AT. 32 8.25%
Either is fine with me. 53 13.66%
I don't care. No manual, no purchase. 68 17.53%
Voters: 388. You may not vote on this poll

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      07-15-2020, 04:17 PM   #353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wills2 View Post
Having just been out of blast this afternoon in the X3M and pulled that paddle with my ham fist I can confirm it changes gear when you ask it to right up to the red line. (maybe the difference is I've actually had experience with both)

I think I have said on this thread or perhaps another the M ZF8 is the least of any prospective G80 M3/4 owners worries.
That's great to hear for the AT/AWD G8X camp.
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      07-15-2020, 04:21 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by Wills2 View Post
I can't agree having had F10 M5 MDCT, F80 M3 MDCT and now the M ZF8 in the X3M the shift/paddle reaction times as observed by the driver are no different.

Your description about pulling the paddle at 5.5k to make sure the gearbox changes at 7k+ is absurd it's no different to the MDCT pull the paddle and it changes.
How are the downshifts in that ZF box?
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      07-15-2020, 05:05 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by Loma View Post
How are the downshifts in that ZF box?
Grab a gear and it's there on the down shift as an aside in D3 the programing is far better than the MDCT it's more like PDK in its reactions and down shifts keeping the revs on the boil when braking into a corner.

What it does lack is that slight mechanical feel of the MDCT.
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      07-15-2020, 05:46 PM   #356
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Can you skip gears in an auto? 5-3?

My favorite thing to do in my M3 is mash the gas and downshift and it goes to the lowest possible gear given the current speed. Will I still be able to do that?
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      07-15-2020, 05:48 PM   #357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wills2 View Post
What it does lack is that slight mechanical feel of the MDCT.
Unfortunately I think this is a main part of the experience the DCT fans are looking for. I know it was for me when I had my E90 M3 with M-DCT and compared to ZF equipped cars which I never bothered paddle shift of this very reason, though none of them had the general racy character of the M3 to be fair. That said if the ZF G8X result in car that feels faster and more responsive at all times I think I will adapt quickly, I have seen very little complaints of journalists reviewing the Alfa QV in this regard as an example. If not, I’ll still get over it while enjoying the AWD factor as a give and take

I’m going from an MT so the change is already massive, go big or...

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      07-15-2020, 09:20 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
It's interesting to read near diametric opposite testimonials/viewpoints about the same thing. One person says shift times suck while an owner states the shift time differences are indiscernible.
Yes - I also find this very interesting and would love to understand whether it's a difference in expectations, a difference in setup, a difference between vehicles, or something else.

I test drove an X3M Competition for 30 mins with the transmission in the fastest shift mode, using it in 'manual mode' like I do with my F82. I found it frustrating (and night-and-day difference from the M2Comp I drove next). I am definitely not interested in buying an auto G8x if it drives like the vehicle I test-drove. I would rather bite the bullet and teach myself to drive an MT with the 'wrong hand'.

There is more than one track review of the M8 (with the same transmission) where the reviewers complain about lag on downshifts. I linked to one in the previous length DCT/AT thread. So it's not just 'one person' ... clearly some people are just having frustrating experiences.

I am willing to believe that the M-ZF8 is a great transmission in 'full auto' mode - but I just didn't buy an M car to drive it in full auto. Much like the DCT on my M4, I find that the car's choice of gear maddening in anything below D3, but I don't *always* want to drive around all the time with the revs above 3000. The paddles give me the choice of when I want/need high revs and when I don't - just like a manual. The only difference is that the execution of shifts is about 5x faster than an MT.

I can see that there are plenty of people who like the ZF8 transmission a lot - and maybe it suits their driving style. They are obviously entitled to their opinions. But I find it hard to reconcile the many comments that "it's just the same" will the test-drive experience that I had. I continue to hope that there was just a problem with the vehicle I drove and that I'll be blown away by the G82, since I struggle to think of another car that suits my lifestyle.
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      07-15-2020, 09:34 PM   #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
It's interesting to read near diametric opposite testimonials/viewpoints about the same thing. One person says shift times suck while an owner states the shift time differences are indiscernible.
I guess it depends on what is included in or how the shift time is defined. First there's the response time, the time it takes between paddle actuation and the initiation of the shift and then there's the actual shift time, the time it takes for the transmission to mechanically execute the shift.

I'll copy what I pasted in an other thread because I believe it is pertinant to this discussion:

Planetary automatics have indeed significantly closed the performance gap with DCT, but they aren't quite there yet. While the reported "shift times" are very close, it is what happens during those miliseconds that makes the difference. The various clutch packs inside the planetary auto cannot handle an all out power shift, so the engine needs to momentarily cut back on power during the shift. Which is not the case with DCT, where the DCT can recuperate the inertia of the engine RPM drop and convert it in forward acceleration. With the planetary auto, there's a momentary reduction in acceleration during the shift (your head bobs forward), with the DCT there is a surge of acceleration during the shift (your head bobs rearward). The latter is much more satisfying from a sporty driving standpoint and offers a slight performance edge.

I recently had the opportunity to test drive my buddies G90 M5 back to back with his new 992 PDK C4 and my DCT M4cs. The G90 M5 is one fantastic machine, but my biggest dissapointment with the car was the transmission. It feels heavy and slugging compared to the PDK and DCT. I found the response on upshifts on the ZF 8AT were very quick, but the response on downshifts were a bit laggy.
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      07-15-2020, 09:48 PM   #360
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“I would rather bite the bullet and teach myself to drive an MT with the 'wrong hand'.”

As one that moved from right hand MT shifting for 10 years to left hand MT shifting for 4 years and back to right hand I can say that there is no learning curve, it’s immediate with just a few occasions the first month of reaching for the shifter in the door
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      07-15-2020, 10:07 PM   #361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wills2 View Post
Grab a gear and it's there on the down shift as an aside in D3 the programing is far better than the MDCT it's more like PDK in its reactions and down shifts keeping the revs on the boil when braking into a corner.

What it does lack is that slight mechanical feel of the MDCT.
Does the M version of the ZF stay in manual mode once entered? If I recall correctly the F10 I had would drop back to automatic after a while. Also in automatic mode to what rpm does it upshift when you stop accelerating)? The ZF in the F10 went to such high gear that the car was near stuttering...the 6 speed Getrag AT before it was much better in this regard.
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      07-15-2020, 10:49 PM   #362
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I was a diehard manual trans guy up until Porsche came out with PDK

I would never go back a glorious tranny.

I like BMW DCT not as good as PDK but better than the 8 speed automatic imo
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      07-16-2020, 02:08 AM   #363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Cane View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigilant View Post
Over the last two years, I have been reviewing the G8x images and info. As a previous person indicated, the engine and transmission have taken a distant back seat to the looks (in particular the grille) of the next generation M3/M4. More powerful...faster...option for AWD. All positive changes. I love my F80...have never reached ceiling of vehicle in 5 years, but I have grown attached to the DCT. It's not a PDK, but I enjoy having the equivalent of a F1 transmission at that price point. This is what I will miss if I upgrade to the G8x.
Have you driven an M5 or M8? I have, and I don’t think I noticed any substantial difference. The ZF 8 speed shifts really fast.
This.

The ZF box has become so good it's made DCT redundant.
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      07-16-2020, 05:33 AM   #364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
"I would rather bite the bullet and teach myself to drive an MT with the 'wrong hand'."

As one that moved from right hand MT shifting for 10 years to left hand MT shifting for 4 years and back to right hand I can say that there is no learning curve, it's immediate with just a few occasions the first month of reaching for the shifter in the door
Agreed - the change is intuitive.
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      07-16-2020, 04:12 PM   #365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbethesda View Post
Can you skip gears in an auto? 5-3?

My favorite thing to do in my M3 is mash the gas and downshift and it goes to the lowest possible gear given the current speed. Will I still be able to do that?
Yes it does that too.
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      07-16-2020, 04:17 PM   #366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Does the M version of the ZF stay in manual mode once entered? If I recall correctly the F10 I had would drop back to automatic after a while. Also in automatic mode to what rpm does it upshift when you stop accelerating)? The ZF in the F10 went to such high gear that the car was near stuttering...the 6 speed Getrag AT before it was much better in this regard.
Yes it does stay in manual mode forget the cooking (standard ZF equipped BMWs) The M ZF apes MDCT in operation and functionality.

Gearshift shift strategies are dependant on the D mode selected D1/2/3 (just like MDCT) for me in auto the box responds better than the MDCT did in auto (less ghosts in the machine it appears)

In terms of user interface the M ZF8 is the same as MDCT same options same shifter select pattern, totally intuitive to anyone used to MDCT.
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      07-16-2020, 04:25 PM   #367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wills2 View Post
Yes it does stay in manual mode forget the cooking (standard ZF equipped BMWs) The M ZF apes MDCT in operation and functionality.

Gearshift shift strategies are dependant on the D mode selected D1/2/3 (just like MDCT) for me in auto the box responds better than the MDCT did in auto (less ghosts in the machine it appears)

In terms of user interface the M ZF8 is the same as MDCT same options same shifter select pattern, totally intuitive to anyone used to MDCT.
Very good to hear, thanks!
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      07-16-2020, 04:27 PM   #368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Unfortunately I think this is a main part of the experience the DCT fans are looking for. I know it was for me when I had my E90 M3 with M-DCT and compared to ZF equipped cars which I never bothered paddle shift of this very reason, though none of them had the general racy character of the M3 to be fair. That said if the ZF G8X result in car that feels faster and more responsive at all times I think I will adapt quickly, I have seen very little complaints of journalists reviewing the Alfa QV in this regard as an example. If not, I’ll still get over it while enjoying the AWD factor as a give and take

I’m going from an MT so the change is already massive, go big or...
Indeed my comments and observations come from doing 200,000 miles in MDCT equipped cars e92/F10/F80 so hopefully I have a decent understanding of how MDCT feels to drive, the rawness has gone with M ZF8 (I also had an SMGII e46 and M DCT is limp wristed compared to the emotion in that gear box but that is a marmite application if ever there was one)

In terms of manual M's I've had one and the gearbox was a huge let down just awful and let the rest of the car down, I'll never get another manual M after that. For me compared to S2000/Porsche/type R etc... they are poor and quite embarrassing that M think they are fit for purpose, long throw, vague, notchy and rubbery and loose all at the same time, rifle bolt they are not.

But to each his own.
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      07-16-2020, 04:48 PM   #369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wills2 View Post
Indeed my comments and observations come from doing 200,000 miles in MDCT equipped cars e92/F10/F80 so hopefully I have a decent understanding of how MDCT feels to drive, the rawness has gone with M ZF8 (I also had an SMGII e46 and M DCT is limp wristed compared to the emotion in that gear box but that is a marmite application if ever there was one)

In terms of manual M's I've had one and the gearbox was a huge let down just awful and let the rest of the car down, I'll never get another manual M after that. For me compared to S2000/Porsche/type R etc... they are poor and quite embarrassing that M think they are fit for purpose, long throw, vague, notchy and rubbery and loose all at the same time, rifle bolt they are not.

But to each his own.
Yeah I don’t agree with the MT part, I’ve owned six MT BMWs and they’ve all had some BMW trademarks as slightly high and long clutch engagement, semi long throws and a bit rubbery feel. However In my case it’s just an annoyance when you switch from something like a 911 or Honda. My body quickly adapts to the BMW and shifting is precise and never fail if you do it right. I’ve never had an MT fail on me or wear out. It’s been good stuff including the F80.

As much as I love MT I’m not a die hard and todays ATs including DCTs are worth swapping in and out of for me personally. No doubt MT is a more satisfying way to shift though.
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      07-17-2020, 10:16 AM   #370
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbethesda View Post
Can you skip gears in an auto? 5-3?

My favorite thing to do in my M3 is mash the gas and downshift and it goes to the lowest possible gear given the current speed. Will I still be able to do that?
Yes it does that too.
Phew! Thanks for the info
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      07-17-2020, 12:02 PM   #371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wills2 View Post
I can't agree having had F10 M5 MDCT, F80 M3 MDCT and now the M ZF8 in the X3M the shift/paddle reaction times as observed by the driver are no different.

Your description about pulling the paddle at 5.5k to make sure the gearbox changes at 7k+ is absurd it's no different to the MDCT pull the paddle and it changes.
It is absolutely different and it's the reason I'm not in an F90 right now. So much so that I think the F90 is an upgrade in every department in terms of traction, dynamics, looks, interior quality, technology except 2 generations behind in the gearbox compared to my 105k mile F10 DCT. I really can't believe you don't notice the delay in the gearbox compared to your F10.

One of the easiest solutions would have been to make the gearing much longer on these ZF boxes. It has some of the shortest ratios of any ZF equipped cars that I've looked into in 2018 at least when the F90 came out.

The 1 short test drive of the X3MComp I had I wasn't really focused solely on the gearbox like I've had on the 3 different occasions I've driven the F90 (2 dealership test drives, 1 friend), It was mostly the engine note, power output and dynamics of it. It's possible it's easier to shift since it's simply a bit slower than the M5 too.

I just want people to temper their expectations, to some people the ZF box is an upgrade, to some it's a downgrade and I'm in the latter camp.
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      07-17-2020, 02:46 PM   #372
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One of the easiest solutions would have been to make the gearing much longer on these ZF boxes. It has some of the shortest ratios of any ZF equipped cars that I've looked into in 2018 at least when the F90 came out.
Closer ratios is certainly one of the things I found problematic, combined with more power and a turbo engine (the shifts seem to come much more frequently).

This probably doesn't matter if you largely drive in full-auto and use the paddles for an occasional 'kick-down' or short-shift. But if you're trying to do *all* the shifts yourself (both up and down) then it feels pretty frantic, in my opinion. Any small lag is noticeable, and any wrong gear choice can lose your boost.

It's hard to imagine exactly what this would be like in a track setting - e.g. if I need to drop 2 or 3 gears under hard braking going into a corner (I couldn't come close to that in a test-drive situation on regular streets). Quite possibly the car would do a better job of it than I could ... but that would be no fun. :-(
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      07-21-2020, 10:21 AM   #373
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...and speaking of transmissions for track use. Anybody know (or care to speculate) what they are putting in the M4 GT3?
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      07-21-2020, 10:31 AM   #374
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...and speaking of transmissions for track use. Anybody know (or care to speculate) what they are putting in the M4 GT3?
I don’t know if it’s confirmed but I’d guess they will continue with a sequential racing tranny like the Ricardo unit they use in the M6 GT3. As a note Porsche is also using a sequential gearbox in the 911 GT3 cup.
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