[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by XsltAnalyst

Would be interesting to see if BMW can match or beat RS4 in its own game that it started many decades ago

That's my thought: if you're BMW, how do you grow M sales?

(1.) Well first you ride organic growth and can't lose more existing converts than you gain. They're already doing this.

(2.) Next you can steal market share by making the gold standard, but those days seem to be over and they're already doing this.

(3.) You open up to a new segment of buyers. The M2 makes this possible as you can direct more hardcore buyers there (so you protect net loss) and add new features that you've never had before ... and AWD is the last frontier here before electric.

With AWD they can pull in winter buyers that've held off in the past due to worries about winter, and they can one-up Audi by giving the option to disable the system.

BMW is going all out on M xDrive marketing by giving youtubers and other non-traditional channels sneak previews with Timo Glock.

Feels to me like they're ramping up for more than just the M5.

[KevinM]

I would expect so. BMW has clearly spent a lot of time developing M xDrive, and to be honest it looks pretty good, especially with the 2WD option. And with all the flack the F8X platform has taken for going sideways when the throttle is mashed...

[M3WMD]

When I picked up my new car the sales guy said the Xdrive would most likely be on the next M3 version to be released following the M5

[bmrwrld]

I wasn't a fan of X drives in a 3 series till I finally broke down and got one and it was truly great on the 335i X drive. It would make the current M3/M4 a monster.

[Spike Spiegel]

Originally Posted by bmrwrld

I wasn't a fan of X drives in a 3 series till I finally broke down and got one and it was truly great on the 335i X drive. It would make the current M3/M4 a monster.

What about it made you not initially a fan? if you don't mind my asking.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by M3WMD

When I picked up my new car the sales guy said the Xdrive would most likely be on the next M3 version to be released following the M5

The sales guys get their information from pretty much the same sources that that we do: Official press releases, spy shots, speculation, and rumor. Like most companies, BMW is tight with upcoming projects even from it's own sales team. It has to go through marketing before it even gets to distribution and sales.

[mkoesel]

Well, if the AWD system is in that high demand in this class then Mercedes will no doubt make the move and fit their new version of it as well. And we should believe that BMW will have that knowledge long before we do - potentially in time to react for the G2x-based M3 if it is necessary.

If it were as simple as one-upping the competition, BMW would just give the current car the option for more performance. It wouldn't take much - they have the water injected S55 and could add other existing parts such as the M performance suspension and exhaust. With the existing weight advantage, that would no doubt put them firmly in front of the AMG in "S" trim. But notice that they instead took the lower cost "appearance package" route and released the M4 CS with some GTS cosmetic parts and an immaterial bump in power over the competition package (accomplished via simple software tweaks). And yet, we both know they'll sell every one without problem.

In this segment margins are too important. And business cases are made or broken on features that cost much less than an AWD system. Even if you increase sales, if you are making commensurately less per vehicle then the board may not care. M, AMG, and other in house performance divisions are small sales and run on tight budgets. It is very much a "do more with less" type of game.

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Seems to me it's a market growth question:

...

If M xDrive is well reviewed then I think their equation changes and they pop it into the next gen M4 with the M2 as their track rat car.

If people hate it in the M5, then they stick with rwd and settle for market share growth.

Feels even money to me right now, especially given the M5 rollout.

[someguywithanm3]

They could tune the car a little better to provide better traction in lower gears. I know UGR used a "boost by gear" set-up.

[bmrwrld]

Originally Posted by StormRYU

What about it made you not initially a fan? if you don't mind my asking.

Just the idea that a sport car should be rear wheel drive only, old thinking.

[BMWCAT]

Originally Posted by DS_BMW

I think it will be here next gen and the M2 will remain the last RWD only M car.

There are more than enough speculation that the next gen 2 series will be riding FWD platform.. we know it's brother that shared the chassis (1 series hatch) is going FWD when next generation comes along..

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by BMWCAT

There are more than enough speculation that the next gen 2 series will be riding FWD platform.. we know it's brother that shared the chassis (1 series hatch) is going FWD when next generation comes along..

The next 2 Series has RWD chassis codes: G42/G43. It will continue on a RWD platform. The next 1 Series is F40/F41 - UKL chassis codes, confirming the move to FWD.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

But notice that they instead took the lower cost "appearance package" route and released the M4 CS with some GTS cosmetic parts and an immaterial bump in power over the competition package (accomplished via simple software tweaks).

You might want to have a look at this thread, Sometimes "numbers" can be deceiving: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1376759

I however agree that they sould have done "a little more" to the CS, particularly on the suspension.

[4DRS55]

Do you guys think this would hurt resale if the new m3 had it? I feel the complexity of the system and more components to maintain would scare some people especially out of warranty, Just a thought. The past generation M's in the used market holds decent value, most m3's to date and last of the E39 M5 for the 5 series generation.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

You might want to have a look at this thread, Sometimes "numbers" can be deceiving: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1376759

I however agree that they sould have done "a little more" to the CS, particularly on the suspension.

Sure, I didn't mean to imply the CS would not perform better than other M4 models do. My point was that if they were really about growing M4 sales by offering something the competition doesn't, then they would offer up the water-injected S55 for clear class leading performance. In other words it isn't about what technically can be done - we all know the engineers could do that if asked - but about controlling costs. And tuning the standard motor via software wins that contest. If you can go with a low cost approach and still grow sales, then that's what you do.

Similarly, keeping the car RWD is a lot cheaper than going to AWD, so they will go that route until absolutely forced to do otherwise. Just my opinion based on armchair analysis and a hobbyist-level knowledge of the marketplace. But I don't think I am too far off on this.

[drgmt]

I just hope they get the balance in the x drive AWD system right. The Audi Quattro is far to conservative and understeer just ruins the experience.

BMW won't be pressured to move as long as the C63 remains rear wheel driven.

[Ian1973]

I don't like the idea. What all wheel drive car have any of you guys heard of that doesn't understeer? I realize those limits may be higher than common sense on the roads would allow, but I still don't like the idea. Of course the additional transfer cases add weight and sap power too boot.

I would rather see them tire up and do some trickery in the lower gears with boost. Or just stop the power game and focus on reducing weight, not having the dam things grow each generation and tune the chassis better.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

keeping the car RWD is a lot cheaper than going to AWD, so they will go that route until absolutely forced to do otherwise.

Originally Posted by drgmt

BMW won't be pressured to move as long as the C63 remains rear wheel driven.

Maybe, but "competitor" is only one of many product management factors, and I really hope BMW isn't leading from behind.

For example, BMW has DCTs, AMG never has yet AMG sales have grown and BMW isn't pressured to follow suit (until now?) So their customers are similar, but they're not the same, and follow-the-other guy isn't always the right choice. Maybe with a big decision like drive systems, I dunno.

Then there's 'verts which, again, BMW has had a market for but AMG hasn't (until now?).

Further both BMW and AMG have now created their individual lines (M and Merc-amg) which sounds like small and high profit is no longer the goal (similar to when porsche started making SUVs).

Of course another way to look at it is that they're testing it and if they can get the handling right it happens for either of them, if not it doesn't (i.e., the race is already happening). I suppose there are probably a lot of factors.

Anyway, just some thoughts, it'll be fun to watch!

[firedown31]

Originally Posted by 4DRS55

Do you guys think this would hurt resale if the new m3 had it? I feel the complexity of the system and more components to maintain would scare some people especially out of warranty, Just a thought. The past generation M's in the used market holds decent value, most m3's to date and last of the E39 M5 for the 5 series generation.

I think it could help, we would all now own the last RWD only M3. That will matter to some people.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Maybe, but "competitor" is only one of many product management factors, and I really hope BMW isn't leading from behind.

BMW still leads in lightweight chassis design. They (along with Cadillac) have also kept the manual transmission alive in this class.

For example, BMW has DCTs, AMG never has yet AMG sales have grown and BMW isn't pressured to follow suit (until now?)

Until now indeed. The goal to drive down costs will almost surely claim the DCT after the end of the current generation. It doesn't have to be a bad thing either - the most cost effective solution that gets the job done is the right choice. There was a time when a DCT had the clear performance advantage with shift times that yielded measurably faster acceleration (and other driving experience advantages) when compared to a planetary box, but it is no longer the case.

So their customers are similar, but they're not the same, and follow-the-other guy isn't always the right choice. Maybe with a big decision like drive systems, I dunno.

The C class (including the AMG) comes later than the 3 Series (including the M). If the business case is there and BMW has taken the lead to package protect the G20-based M3/M4 for AWD without instigation, then Mercedes will simply follow in turn with the W206. It's highly unlikely that it will come as a same-generation differentiator for BMW.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

The C class (including the AMG) comes later than the 3 Series (including the M). If the business case is there and BMW has taken the lead to package protect the G20-based M3/M4 for AWD without instigation, then Mercedes will simply follow in turn with the W206. It's highly unlikely that it will come as a same-generation differentiator for BMW.

I guess my question is how much AMG and M compete now that they're separate car lines from their parent companies ... obviously if one of them really falls behind in value it'll cause switching, but there are some features I don't think they compete in much.

Take 'verts: is AMG really trying to steal BMW M 'vert customers? Or are trying to create a new segment of Benz buyers? I suspect it's the latter. AWD seems the same to me - is BMW really trying to protect against customer loss or would the primary goal be to open up a new segment of M buyers? I tend to go with the latter.

I'm a great example of someone who might switch to AMG, but the value just isn't there: it's about 30% more on a lease, it's a soft top, it's a crappier transmission with a stalk shifter, it doesn't look as nice, and it isn't as sharp as the M4. But it does have v8. That's just not a great match up for me whether you add AWD or not. So who does it work for? People that like Benz and would probably never buy a BMW.

[tastes jigga]

I'm conflicted here. Having AWD as an option can't be argued with, but I bought my '18 M4 specifically for the RWD and manual transmission. I prefer this setup because my DD is a 435i xDrive automatic. That being said, if BMW kills both RWD and M/T for the next gen, my current '18 M4 ZCP M/T could be worth a lot of money.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

I guess my question is how much AMG and M compete now that they're separate car lines from their parent companies ... obviously if one of them really falls behind in value it'll cause switching, but there are some features I don't think they compete in much.

In my not so humble opinion you are overthinking it. They not only compete - they are fierce competitors. Don't mistake slightly different approaches to a specific technical problems or different levels of emphasis on some esoteric traits for not competing for the same pool of customers.

To address your specific example, if the C63 had been available when I was ready to purchase in 2014, I'd have definitely gave it very serious and careful consideration. And if I were buying a convertible like I had the past two generations, I think it might very well have given me motivation to wait - I think that car (the A205 C63) is a complete beast. Would love to have one and would have no problem choosing it over an F83 M4. The sedan, it turns out, is a little lacking in the aesthetic department (not sold on the current four-door Mercedes design language, plus it lacks the fat fenders and hence wider tires of the two door models), so it would be a tougher sell. But the V8 might just be enough to do it. For better or worse I never had to make the choice.

At the end of the day I put the chances of a G** M3/M4 with AWD very low, and the chances of the same with a *206 "C63" (or whatever they call it) staying RWD at essentially zero.