[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by JCZ5

I am all for manuals. But why do you think this generation will be for sure the last gen for manuals? I am genuinely curious so no aggressive questioning overtones just to be clear.

I've heard the statement being used again and again for BMWs. I am not too sure that time will come. BMW could be the last brand with a manual and there will be enough sales to satisfy them.

A lot of us are basing our assumptions about the death of the manual transmission on the death of the internal combustion engine. Electric vehicles are going to be mandated, it's just a question of when.

[Remonster]

"The Competition model has an automatic transmission, so why choose it?"

Do you see how the question is answered 100% by personal preference?

The concept of value doesn't enter into my decision making process at all, if I was looking for value I wouldn't be buying or leasing another $80,000 BMW. I want this car because it (will hopefully) deliver an exciting and engaging driving experience and for me, the manual shifting experience is part of the fun.

[JCZ5]

Originally Posted by frankiebones

A lot of us are basing our assumptions about the death of the manual transmission on the death of the internal combustion engine. Electric vehicles are going to be mandated, it's just a question of when.

I get there will be a shift to EVs in the future. But I still see automakers having maybe one model that is either ICE or hybrid for a segment of the population. The emission rules say a percentage of your production have to be zero-emissons, not 100%.

Therefore, I can see Porsche, BMW, Mazda having at least one model catering to the driving enthusiasts. It may get pricey though, but there will still be a profitable market because we now only have 3 options.

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by JCZ5

I get there will be a shift to EVs in the future. But I still see automakers having maybe one model that is either ICE or hybrid for a segment of the population. The emission rules say a percentage of your production have to be zero-emissons, not 100%.

Therefore, I can see Porsche, BMW, Mazda having at least one model catering to the driving enthusiasts. It may get pricey though, but there will still be a profitable market because we now only have 3 options.

They won't be legal in the largest state in the US, we know that for sure. The smart money says 15 years from now, if not sooner, ICE are gone and so are cars driven by humans.

The implications to the economy are nearly incalculable. 4 million people make their living in the US alone "driving" in some way shape or form.

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by frankiebones

You're complaining about nothing and by the way, the title for this thread is wrong. It should be "why choose a manual over an 8AT?" since it's the difference between the two models.

People who are still driving manual in 2020 don't need to explain themselves. BMW gets it.

I would prefer the MT myself, but not when I have to give up 100Nm/30hp, face more co² taxes and pay about the same price. In Belgium the price difference is 7200€ to compensate for the lesser MT spec and that seems a fair deal. Also, the engine of the F80 seems more suited for MT since its torque plateau comes up about 800rpm sooner. Since you only have 6 gears instead of 8, the dip underneath 2650rpm becomes more noticable.

I know, I just repeat the known arguments, but just to say that I don't have the idea that BMW did much care about the MT everything considered and hopes for die hard MT fans to buy them nevertheless.

I'am very anxious to read the first serious reviews of the MT (and AT).

[dgm3]

Originally Posted by KoenG

I would prefer the MT myself, but not when I have to give up 100Nm/30hp, face more co² taxes and pay about the same price. In Belgium the price difference is 7200€ to compensate for the lesser MT spec and that seems a fair deal. Also, the engine of the F80 seems more suited for MT since its torque plateau comes up about 800rpm sooner. Since you only have 6 gears instead of 8, the dip underneath 2650rpm becomes more noticable.

I know, I just repeat the known arguments, but just to say that I don't have the idea that BMW did much care about the MT everything considered and hopes for die hard MT fans to buy them nevertheless.

I'am very anxious to read the first serious reviews of the MT (and AT).

These turbo engines have too much torque and you can't take full benefit of it without going to AWD. So a lower torque on the manual RWD is not an issue at all and the 30 hp less will hardly be noticeable.

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by KoenG

I would prefer the MT myself, but not when I have to give up 100Nm/30hp, face more co² taxes and pay about the same price. In Belgium the price difference is 7200€ to compensate for the lesser MT spec and that seems a fair deal. Also, the engine of the F80 seems more suited for MT since its torque plateau comes up about 800rpm sooner. Since you only have 6 gears instead of 8, the dip underneath 2650rpm becomes more noticable.

I know, I just repeat the known arguments, but just to say that I don't have the idea that BMW did much care about the MT everything considered and hopes for die hard MT fans to buy them nevertheless.

I'am very anxious to read the first serious reviews of the MT (and AT).

If you need reviews to make your decision, don't get the manual. You're not "one of us." Lol.

[Penguino]

Originally Posted by dgm3

These turbo engines have too much torque and you can't take full benefit of it without going to AWD. So a lower torque on the manual RWD is not an issue at all and the 30 hp less will hardly be noticeable.

30hp will be about a car length or more so it's noticeable. But I'm not in F&F and I'm not 16 anymore.

So I'm with you in that, for me, the driving experience surpasses anything related to detrimental performance.

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by Penguino

30hp will be about a car length or more so it's noticeable. But I'm not in F&F and I'm not 16 anymore.

So I'm with you in that, for me, the driving experience surpasses anything related to detrimental performance.

I'am not referring to a cars length of difference, I don't care. I refer to 100Nm almost everywhere, and no doubt that makes a huge difference.

[Penguino]

Originally Posted by KoenG

I'am not referring to a cars length of difference, I don't care. I refer to 100Nm almost everywhere, and no doubt that makes a huge difference.

I was responding to dgm3 not you.

Also, buy an Auto then.

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by Penguino

I was responding to dgm3 not you.

Also, buy an Auto then.

This should, but won't end the thread.

Like I said, if you are awaiting the reviews on the 6MT versus the 8AT to make your decision, then you are not "one of us."

[EndBosS]

Originally Posted by KoenG

Maybe, but I drove stick for 30 years. The ZF8HP is a peach which compensates the illusion for being more in control. In combination with the S58 I would certainly appreciate the 2 additional gears, the wider total spread, lower consumption & CO², 100Nm extra. The shift paddles trigger the gear shift almost immediately, also on down shifts which takes significantly longer with a MT.

I would turn the situation around: the people wanting a MT have already driven the ZF8HP?

Koen, the difference is that people in Belgium (like you and me) we CAN drive a manual because that's what we learn to get our licence...

We know how to drive it, we just pick the AT because we see it as a valueble extra over manuel gearbox, it's a whole different story then for the Americans.

[dgm3]

Originally Posted by EndBosS

Koen, the difference is that people in Belgium (like you and me) we CAN drive a manual because that's what we learn to get our licence...

We know how to drive it, we just pick the AT because we see it as a valueble extra over manuel gearbox, it's a whole different story then for the Americans.

I am in Belgium too and indeed learned to drive on a manual. However I still want today a manual M3 for the exact same reason than our American friends ...because it is more engaging to drive and this is a key priority for me.

[M2PDX]

Originally Posted by JCZ5

Also, the characterization that BMW's shifter is "rubbery" and clutch travel long is now a cliche. Those characteristics are in fact the defining characteristics of a BMW. And for the most part, the rubbery sensation is not even as prevalent. In fact, back in the day when I had my Mazdaspeed 3 (remember those? Haha), it felt more rubbery.

Now, of course if you compare to a Porsche or a Miata, their shifter / clutch feel are more direct and positive. Now is that "better"? Not necessarily, but I would argue it is what people have been told that this is the gold standard. I quite enjoy driving different cars and experiencing the various nuances that makes each car manufacturer unique. Oh and anecdotally, I have heard a few long time German BMW enthusiasts and I heard they actually prefer this feel, especially during daily driving. You would think if this shifter was indeed terrible, BMW engineers would have changed it years ago when the manual transmissions were found in the regular lineup.

Ahhhh ....but an M2 with a $10 Burger Tuning clutch stop is direct and heavenly!

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by M2PDX

Ahhhh ....but an M2 with a $10 Burger Tuning clutch stop is direct and heavenly!

All cars need a clutch stop! In fact, several years ago I did a poll and I was surprised the majority of 6MT driving forum members use clutch stops.

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1449571

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by frankiebones

All cars need a clutch stop! In fact, several years ago I did a poll and I was surprised the majority of 6MT driving forum members use clutch stops.

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1449571

When you can solve the issue with a few $ clutch pedal stop, why don't the engineers at Munich directly install it then on their M's? WTF

[M2PDX]

Originally Posted by KoenG

When you can solve the issue with a few $ clutch pedal stop, why don't the engineers at Munich directly install it then on their M's? WTF

Exactly!

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by KoenG

When you can solve the issue with a few $ clutch pedal stop, why don't the engineers at Munich directly install it then on their M's? WTF

Because it's a matter of preference. A lot of people prefer to leave it stock. The people that don't can modify it.

A clutch with a longer travel distance is also safer.

Jeez.

You, my friend, need to stop complaining. Get a job at BMW, infiltrate them from the inside out, and change things as you see fit....or maybe start looking at the glass as half empty.

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by frankiebones

Because it's a matter of preference. A lot of people prefer to leave it stock. The people that don't can modify it.

A clutch with a longer travel distance is also safer.

Jeez.

You, my friend, need to stop complaining. Get a job at BMW, infiltrate them from the inside out, and change things as you see fit....or maybe start looking at the glass as half empty.

The lesson I learn here is that BMW should be happy that there is an enthousiasts crowd willing to accept half engineered solutions in the MT version. The MT crowd is willing to accept compromises as long as they can shift themselves.

Fair enough, but totally unacceptable in my mind.

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by KoenG

The lesson I learn here is that BMW should be happy that there is an enthousiasts crowd willing to accept half engineered solutions in the MT version. The MT crowd is willing to accept compromises as long as they can shift themselves.

Fair enough, but totally unacceptable in my mind.

I mean, 480 HP is 480 HP.

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by frankiebones

I mean, 480 HP is 480 HP.

Yes, it still is a mighty iron fist.

But...(here I go again) many will dream of the extra they could awake with a few tweaks. BMW could have done that themselves with some extra effort whilst assuring the buyer is fully protected with the guarantee. I can imagine that something harmless as a 2$ clutchstop renders guarantee void for the entire synchro-mesh and clutch.

[xlover]

Originally Posted by KoenG

Yes, it still is a mighty iron fist.

But...(here I go again) many will dream of the extra they could awake with a few tweaks. BMW could have done that themselves with some extra effort whilst assuring the buyer is fully protected with the guarantee. I can imagine that something harmless as a 2$ clutchstop renders guarantee void for the entire synchro-mesh and clutch.

The fallacy in your argument is that more power/torque necessarily equates to a better driving experience and that having less is a compromise. That is purely an opinion.
When thinking about a manual, enjoying the driving AND shifting experience should be the priority. Manual transmissions are more enjoyable with linear engine curves. While yes the manual is lesser in peak power it's likely better matched to a manual driving experience. There is a such thing as having too much power especially in different places in the rev range to maximize driving experience for the manual vs driving experience for the auto.