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      10-03-2020, 08:15 PM   #1
KoenG
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The base model offers less value, so why choose it?

When the price difference is this small, why still consider the MT then?
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      10-03-2020, 08:26 PM   #2
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When the price difference is this small, why still consider the MT then?
Lol, take cover
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      10-03-2020, 08:45 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by KoenG View Post
When the price difference is this small, why still consider the MT then?
Lol, take cover
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Originally Posted by KoenG View Post
When the price difference is this small, why still consider the MT then?
😂😂...because some people prefer to row their own gears...for the fun of it (I know, shocking &#128521.
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      10-03-2020, 11:18 PM   #4
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When the price difference is this small, why still consider the MT then?
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      10-04-2020, 06:23 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCZ5 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by KoenG View Post
When the price difference is this small, why still consider the MT then?
Lol, take cover
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Originally Posted by KoenG View Post
When the price difference is this small, why still consider the MT then?
😂😂...because some people prefer to row their own gears...for the fun of it (I know, shocking &#128521.
I had a guy in an F80 Facebook group arguing with me recently: "you know the manual is slower why would you choose to drive it?"

Many people have never driven one, and if they haven't driven one they couldn't possibly understand.

Even among the NYC enthusiast crowd (many of whom are quite knowledgeable about several generations of various M cars), there are many guys and girls who have never driven a manual.

I'm 38. The manual was pretty much f*cking dead when I started driving in 1999. My dad made sure my uncle (who drove a manual) taught me how to drive stick.

My point is that many, many people say "I choose AT/DCT because of the performance vs 6MT," when the reality is they never learned to drive stick.
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      10-04-2020, 06:28 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by frankiebones View Post
I had a guy in an F80 Facebook group arguing with me recently: "you know the manual is slower why would you choose to drive it?"

Many people have never driven one, and if they haven't driven one they couldn't possibly understand.

Even among the NYC enthusiast crowd (many of whom are quite knowledgeable about several generations of various M cars), there are many guys and girls who have never driven a manual.

I'm 38. The manual was pretty much f*cking dead when I started driving in 1999. My dad made sure my uncle (who drove a manual) taught me how to drive stick.

My point is that many, many people say "I choose AT/DCT because of the performance vs 6MT," when the reality is they never learned to drive stick.
Maybe, but I drove stick for 30 years. The ZF8HP is a peach which compensates the illusion for being more in control. In combination with the S58 I would certainly appreciate the 2 additional gears, the wider total spread, lower consumption & CO², 100Nm extra. The shift paddles trigger the gear shift almost immediately, also on down shifts which takes significantly longer with a MT.

I would turn the situation around: the people wanting a MT have already driven the ZF8HP?
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      10-04-2020, 06:36 PM   #7
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Maybe, but I drove stick for 30 years. The ZF8HP is a peach which compensates the illusion for being more in control. In combination with the S58 I would certainly appreciate the 2 additional gears, the wider total spread, lower consumption & CO², 100Nm extra. The shift paddles trigger the gear shift almost immediately, also on down shifts which takes significantly longer with a MT.

I would turn the situation around: the people wanting a MT have already driven the ZF8HP?
I would say chances are/will be higher for MT drivers to have driven a ZF8. Reason I say this is is because there are always more ATs on dealer lots for test drives than MT. In fact, some dealers prohibit MT test drives vs. being far more lenient on ATs.

In both cases looking at the F82 and F87, I had far more test drives in the AT than their MT counterparts.

But back to your earlier point, the engine is tuned with the AT in mind. But the MT option is just throwing a bone for people like myself that appreciates rowing their own gears, nothing more.
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      10-04-2020, 06:40 PM   #8
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Maybe, but I drove stick for 30 years. The ZF8HP is a peach which compensates the illusion for being more in control. In combination with the S58 I would certainly appreciate the 2 additional gears, the wider total spread, lower consumption & CO², 100Nm extra. The shift paddles trigger the gear shift almost immediately, also on down shifts which takes significantly longer with a MT.

I would turn the situation around: the people wanting a MT have already driven the ZF8HP?
You make some valid points. However, if you've driven one AT you've driven them all. 2 pedals, whether its DCT, 8 speed AT, etc., doesnt cut it for me.
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      10-04-2020, 06:58 PM   #9
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You make some valid points. However, if you've driven one AT you've driven them all. 2 pedals, whether its DCT, 8 speed AT, etc., doesnt cut it for me.
I would understand when the MT shifts direct, with short throws and high precision in combination with a clutch with a limited pedal travel. Most of the MT from BMW I had were nothing like that: long travel on the pedal and rubbery long throw shifts.
However, none of the M's I drove where MT, maybe they're better?
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      10-04-2020, 07:01 PM   #10
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I would understand when the MT shifts direct, with short throws and high precision in combination with a clutch with a limited pedal travel. Most of the MT from BMW I had were nothing like that: long travel on the pedal and rubbery long throw shifts.
However, none of the M's I drove where MT, maybe they're better?
Much better these days. My F80 was the best manual I've ever driven. However, a clutch stop is the first mod I do and it reduces the travel distance of the clutch pedal by about 40%.

Only problem is by the time you rev out the gear you're doing 40 mph above the speed limit.
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      10-04-2020, 07:04 PM   #11
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Another aspect which might proof not to be neglectable is the turbo threshold: underneath 2600rpm, there is a torque abyss. In combo with the MT, this could deliver a frustrating experience during those occasions that you're not burning rubber.
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      10-04-2020, 07:08 PM   #12
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Another aspect which might proof not to be neglectable is the turbo threshold: underneath 2600rpm, there is a torque abyss. In combo with the MT, this could deliver a frustrating experience during those occasions that you're not burning rubber.
It's a small price to pay to hit that rev match perfectly going 5th to 3rd at 55 mph and know, deep down and without a doubt, that you are the greatest driver that has ever lived....
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      10-04-2020, 07:13 PM   #13
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It's a small price to pay to hit that rev match perfectly going 5th to 3rd at 55 mph and know, deep down and without a doubt, that you are the greatest driver that ever lived....
LOL
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      10-04-2020, 07:25 PM   #14
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Also, the characterization that BMW's shifter is "rubbery" and clutch travel long is now a cliche. Those characteristics are in fact the defining characteristics of a BMW. And for the most part, the rubbery sensation is not even as prevalent. In fact, back in the day when I had my Mazdaspeed 3 (remember those? Haha), it felt more rubbery.

Now, of course if you compare to a Porsche or a Miata, their shifter / clutch feel are more direct and positive. Now is that "better"? Not necessarily, but I would argue it is what people have been told that this is the gold standard. I quite enjoy driving different cars and experiencing the various nuances that makes each car manufacturer unique. Oh and anecdotally, I have heard a few long time German BMW enthusiasts and I heard they actually prefer this feel, especially during daily driving. You would think if this shifter was indeed terrible, BMW engineers would have changed it years ago when the manual transmissions were found in the regular lineup.
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      10-05-2020, 08:41 AM   #15
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You would think if this shifter was indeed terrible, BMW engineers would have changed it years ago when the manual transmissions were found in the regular lineup.
I don't think it's terrible, I just don't accept it's clearly worse than the one in the Miata or a Toyota gt86, or a mazda 3, ...

When you believe they would have fixed it by now, why did they deplete all the torque underneath 2600rpm? A master attempt of the bavarian engineering staff to make the car better after +40years of experience with turbo fed engines?
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      10-06-2020, 05:54 AM   #16
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Quote:
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I don't think it's terrible, I just don't accept it's clearly worse than the one in the Miata or a Toyota gt86, or a mazda 3, ...

When you believe they would have fixed it by now, why did they deplete all the torque underneath 2600rpm? A master attempt of the bavarian engineering staff to make the car better after +40years of experience with turbo fed engines?
Because they don't want a bunch of manual G80s to end up in trees.
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      10-09-2020, 10:49 AM   #17
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For me, it doesn't matter how good the auto is. I enjoy shifting. And it would have to be a VERY bad manual for me to pass. BMWs aren't there. I drive a 6-speed E60. The shifting is nowhere near as nice as my Honda S2000. But I wouldn't have it any other way.
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      10-09-2020, 11:55 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoenG View Post
I don't think it's terrible, I just don't accept it's clearly worse than the one in the Miata or a Toyota gt86, or a mazda 3, ...

When you believe they would have fixed it by now, why did they deplete all the torque underneath 2600rpm? A master attempt of the bavarian engineering staff to make the car better after +40years of experience with turbo fed engines?
You're complaining about nothing and by the way, the title for this thread is wrong. It should be "why choose a manual over an 8AT?" since it's the difference between the two models.

People who are still driving manual in 2020 don't need to explain themselves. BMW gets it.
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      10-09-2020, 11:58 AM   #19
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Because #manual
/end

After 10 years driving DCT/Auto, I'm terribly missing the stick. This will 99.9% be the last MT M3 ever made. This is your last chance.
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      10-09-2020, 12:32 PM   #20
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Because #manual
/end

After 10 years driving DCT/Auto, I'm terribly missing the stick. This will 99.9% be the last MT M3 ever made. This is your last chance.
I am all for manuals. But why do you think this generation will be for sure the last gen for manuals? I am genuinely curious so no aggressive questioning overtones just to be clear.

I've heard the statement being used again and again for BMWs. I am not too sure that time will come. BMW could be the last brand with a manual and there will be enough sales to satisfy them.
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      10-09-2020, 12:35 PM   #21
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Penguino View Post
Because #manual
/end

After 10 years driving DCT/Auto, I'm terribly missing the stick. This will 99.9% be the last MT M3 ever made. This is your last chance.
I am all for manuals. But why do you think this generation will be for sure the last gen for manuals? I am genuinely curious so no aggressive questioning overtones just to be clear.

I've heard the statement being used again and again for BMWs. I am not too sure that time will come. BMW could be the last brand with a manual and there will be enough sales to satisfy them.
The manual is gone from all other models expect M3 and M2. Seven years from now it'll be very unlikely that MT continue within the M3/M4 family.

There is virtually no manual transmission from Audi and Mercedes anymore.

BMW has already suggested hybrid version for their upcoming M models.

I dare to bet the M2 will be the only MT available moving forward.
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      10-09-2020, 12:40 PM   #22
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"Honestly, the pure engineering answer is, you're much faster with paddles and an automatic transmission," BMW board member and head of development, Klaus Frohlich, told Road and Track at the 2018 Los Angeles Auto Show. "They're very precise and sporty. Especially on the Nurburgring, you are much better in control when you're not taking one hand away [to shift]. I think, in the overall portfolio, manuals will disappear. But I think M4 should be the fortress of manual. So the last manual transmission which will die, it should die in an M4, as late as possible. That's my view."

Link: https://www.motor1.com/news/281877/bmw-m4-last-manual/
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