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View Poll Results: DCT or traditional AT?
I prefer a DCT. 235 60.57%
I prefer a traditional AT. 32 8.25%
Either is fine with me. 53 13.66%
I don't care. No manual, no purchase. 68 17.53%
Voters: 388. You may not vote on this poll

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      05-28-2020, 05:54 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by BurnleyBimmer View Post
I have no problem with the ZF box. It works great in the M5.
There is a huge difference between target demographics.

M5s are for old geezers who want to do as little as possible while going fast and leave everything automatic. M3 is for eager drivers who either want to row through gears with a stick or paddle shift. ZF8 is subpar in satisfying people who have been exposed to E9x, F8x DCT.

I feel more and more gravitation towards Porsche these days. If they come up with a smaller FR sedan/coupe that is when I will sail the ship.
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      05-28-2020, 06:21 AM   #288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BurnleyBimmer View Post
I have no problem with the ZF box. It works great in the M5.
There is a huge difference between target demographics.

M5s are for old geezers who want to do as little as possible while going fast and leave everything automatic. M3 is for eager drivers who either want to row through gears with a stick or paddle shift. ZF8 is subpar in satisfying people who have been exposed to E9x, F8x DCT.

I feel more and more gravitation towards Porsche these days. If they come up with a smaller FR sedan/coupe that is when I will sail the ship.
That will never happen.

Perhaps a Camero, Charger or a Ford Mustang would suit you?
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      05-28-2020, 09:39 AM   #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
There is a huge difference between target demographics.

M5s are for old geezers who want to do as little as possible while going fast and leave everything automatic. M3 is for eager drivers who either want to row through gears with a stick or paddle shift. ZF8 is subpar in satisfying people who have been exposed to E9x, F8x DCT.

I feel more and more gravitation towards Porsche these days. If they come up with a smaller FR sedan/coupe that is when I will sail the ship.
Actually, M2s are for eager drivers. The M2 is the proper vehicle to compare with Porsche.

So far, BMW has not screwed up the 2 series (other than offering a 1 series FWD car badged deceptively as a 2 series).
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      05-28-2020, 10:03 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
That will never happen.

Perhaps a Camero, Charger or a Ford Mustang would suit you?
Why not? They made Panamera for M5 segment, I can see them making an upscale 3 series competitor just like they made Macan for SAV.

It's not the first time Porsche used front engine, rear wheel drive sedans. 928 is one example of this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveinArizona View Post
Actually, M2s are for eager drivers. The M2 is the proper vehicle to compare with Porsche.

So far, BMW has not screwed up the 2 series (other than offering a 1 series FWD car badged deceptively as a 2 series).
M2 has been around for one generation. Plus, there is no guarantee M2 won't lose DCT for the same reason M3 is expected to lose: bean counting.

M3 has 5 generations of history before G80. It is symbolically a 911 of BMW M.
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      05-28-2020, 11:41 AM   #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
Why not? They made Panamera for M5 segment, I can see them making an upscale 3 series competitor just like they made Macan for SAV.

It's not the first time Porsche used front engine, rear wheel drive sedans. 928 is one example of this.
There will be no new internal combustion models from Porsche, they are not going to invest into a new type of sedan with a gasoline-powered engine as that ship has sadly sailed. They might make a smaller Taycan but there's 0 chance we'll ever see a Porsche competitor to the M3 with an internal combustion engine.

I would be the happiest guy in the world if I'm wrong on this but it just is not going to happen.
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      05-28-2020, 02:04 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by frank.m2 View Post
Can you not fathom anyone who will not "grow" into it?
There's always that one guy in every thread, "yeah yeah you all hate it now but you'll love it later"

Do you think it's not possible that people just hate this new direction BMW is going and is jumping ship until they right the course?

This kind of comment is just backhanded belittling other peoples legitimate opinion.

Also why does one ever have to "grow into" this? This kind of cars are emotional purchases. If I don't love it at first sight, I'm not buying it.
Damn chief relax it was just some sarcasm. Funny how you say there's always that "one guy in every thread" when in essence there's always that one guy in every thread that will start acting like a lawyer to other forum members because someone hit a sensitivity nerve. It's all in good faith man.
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      05-28-2020, 03:42 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by BurnleyBimmer View Post
I have no problem with the ZF box. It works great in the M5.
I just test drove my buddies E90 M5 yesterday. One of my disappointments with the car is the 8AT. I test drove it back to back with my M4cs and his new 992 C4. The shifts feel much less crisp in the M5 compared to the DCT and PDK. The 8AT can't handle an all-out power shift and cuts engine power on upshift (yes, 4WD DSC off). The downshifts are not as immediate and smooth. It definitely feels less sporty. It feels heavy and sluggish in comparison. Traditional planetary automatics have come a long way, but they have not yet quite matched the sportiness and all out performance of a good dual clutch. There's a reason why all super/hyper cars are still DCT equipped .
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      05-28-2020, 06:03 PM   #294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I just test drove my buddies E90 M5 yesterday. One of my disappointments with the car is the 8AT. I test drove it back to back with my M4cs and his new 992 C4. The shifts feel much less crisp in the M5 compared to the DCT and PDK. The 8AT can't handle an all-out power shift and cuts engine power on upshift (yes, 4WD DSC off). The downshifts are not as immediate and smooth. It definitely feels less sporty. It feels heavy and sluggish in comparison. Traditional planetary automatics have come a long way, but they have not yet quite matched the sportiness and all out performance of a good dual clutch. There's a reason why all super/hyper cars are still DCT equipped .
I agree with you that the ZF 8AT feels a little too soft and sluggish in the M5 but the previous F10 M5's DCT also could not handle full power upshifts (and neither could M2C, M3, or M4). This is the reason for the fart sound these cars make during a full boost upshift, S63 V8 and S55 I6 use different methods of cutting torque while keeping the turbos spinning so the cars can get through a shift without sending the full amount of torque through the DCT and also without turbo lag on the other side of the shift.
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      05-28-2020, 07:02 PM   #295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BurnleyBimmer View Post
I have no problem with the ZF box. It works great in the M5.
There's a reason why all super/hyper cars are still DCT equipped .
Because they're not supposed to be daily drivers, just sayin' 🤘🏼☺️🙃
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      05-28-2020, 07:35 PM   #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remonster View Post
I agree with you that the ZF 8AT feels a little too soft and sluggish in the M5 but the previous F10 M5's DCT also could not handle full power upshifts (and neither could M2C, M3, or M4). This is the reason for the fart sound these cars make during a full boost upshift, S63 V8 and S55 I6 use different methods of cutting torque while keeping the turbos spinning so the cars can get through a shift without sending the full amount of torque through the DCT and also without turbo lag on the other side of the shift.
Nope, disagree.

The DCT is more than capable of handling an all out power shift. On a DCT WOT upshift, there is a surge in forward acceleration due to the DCT recuperating the inertia from the engine rpm drop. This can mostly be felt in S3 with DSC off. With the 8AT in the M5, there is a clear reduction in acceleration with each upshift, even in S3 AWD DSC off. The engine power needs to be cut for the clutches in the 8AT to clamp properly.

This particularity is nicely displayed in the Tiff Needell video where he tests all gens of the M5. In the F10, you can see the passenger's heads bob rearward with each upshift from the surge in acceleration. In the F90, you see the passenger's heads bob forward with each upshift from the drop in acceleration.

Now, the fart sound is for another reason altogether. It is the wastegates opening to avoid a pressure spike in the intake plenum. The S55 goes without an intake blow off valve and relies on the exhaust wastegates to control boost.
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      05-28-2020, 07:54 PM   #297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I just test drove my buddies E90 M5 yesterday. One of my disappointments with the car is the 8AT. I test drove it back to back with my M4cs and his new 992 C4. The shifts feel much less crisp in the M5 compared to the DCT and PDK. The 8AT can't handle an all-out power shift and cuts engine power on upshift (yes, 4WD DSC off). The downshifts are not as immediate and smooth. It definitely feels less sporty. It feels heavy and sluggish in comparison. Traditional planetary automatics have come a long way, but they have not yet quite matched the sportiness and all out performance of a good dual clutch. There's a reason why all super/hyper cars are still DCT equipped .
Did you do the test letting the M5 shift by itself? Granted the engine is a complete monster but the times the F90 is capable of on the strip and 0-whatever doesn’t seem to point to any significant losses. Just curious if the paddle shifting could be slower?

Now I’m curious, what did you think of the 992 C4 vs your CS?
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      05-28-2020, 10:08 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Nativetexan View Post
Because they're not supposed to be daily drivers, just sayin' 🤘🏼☺️🙃
What's wrong with DCT for the DD
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      05-29-2020, 02:52 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
What's wrong with DCT for the DD
Seriously.
DCT is one of the smoothest transmissions in the world if you drive manually and treat the throttle like a clutch pedal from take off.

M cars historically were made to aspire people to be avid, and eventually racecar drivers.
However, current M CEO instead focuses on nonsense like hybrid powertrain with a torque converter on purest driving machines like M2/3/4s. I would love to get a manual, but majority of markets other than US and EU won't get MT option which means we are stuck with slower shifting null transmission. (which is where these bean counters see profit admittedly)

BMW M is on the same path as Porsche with their early 997s where enthusiasts buried tiptronic 997s that were extemely slow to respond to user inputs.
People need to stop buying this ZF8 atrocity so they realize they screwed up big time.
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      05-29-2020, 06:56 AM   #300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nativetexan View Post
Because they're not supposed to be daily drivers, just sayin' 🤘🏼☺️🙃
What's wrong with DCT for the DD
They're inherently clunky when driving through traffic. 1st to 2nd back down to 1st is not smooth.

Was just my experience driving one in Austin traffic.
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      05-29-2020, 09:48 AM   #301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nativetexan View Post
They're inherently clunky when driving through traffic. 1st to 2nd back down to 1st is not smooth.

Was just my experience driving one in Austin traffic.
For sure they are not as smooth as a planetary auto, but if one buys an M3/4 primarily for traffic commuting, they are getting the wrong car. I’ve daily driven a DCT for the past 12 years and have nothing to complain about. The DCT shines on track though.
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      05-29-2020, 10:34 AM   #302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nativetexan View Post
They're inherently clunky when driving through traffic. 1st to 2nd back down to 1st is not smooth.

Was just my experience driving one in Austin traffic.
For sure they are not as smooth as a planetary auto, but if one buys an M3/4 primarily for traffic commuting, they are getting the wrong car. I've daily driven a DCT for the past 12 years and have nothing to complain about. The DCT shines on track though.
That's a lump sum statement though...

Commuter and daily driver can be both the same thing.

I live in Austin which normally has horrible traffic a lot of the time. That would mean I'm relegated to just driving an Accord...?
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      05-29-2020, 10:38 AM   #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nativetexan View Post
That's a lump sum statement though...

Commuter and daily driver can be both the same thing.

I live in Austin which normally has horrible traffic a lot of the time. That would mean I'm relegated to just driving an Accord...?
Buy an M340i or whatever. It's the car you want.
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      05-29-2020, 10:48 AM   #304
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The AT is for sure the biggest concern with the G8X but it could also be what saved the MT.

I never thought my E90 M3’s M-DCTs peculiarities in stop and go traffic, in parking lots etc. was much of an issue, certainly not one worth giving up the relatively satisfactory manual shift sensation for.

However my wife who as me grew up driving MTs and know how to properly use it never warmed up to the M-DCT, in fact she hated it to a degree that she never wanted to drive it. So if dual purpose mean more than just for the main driver and extend to handle proper family duties I can see how the AT is a big gain since now no one in the family will need to learn how to enjoy it in grocery runs and school bus duties etc.

With the E90 I always felt bad when I took off for adventure trips in our SUV leaving my wife to with the dreaded DCT. No such problems with the F80 MT where I need to hide the keys Truth to be told she is actually preferring AT these days.

Last edited by solstice; 05-29-2020 at 11:00 AM..
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      05-29-2020, 10:53 AM   #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
For sure they are not as smooth as a planetary auto, but if one buys an M3/4 primarily for traffic commuting, they are getting the wrong car. I’ve daily driven a DCT for the past 12 years and have nothing to complain about. The DCT shines on track though.
Same here - I moved from 6MT to DCT (and RHD to LHD) when I moved from the UK to the US ten years ago.

I drive the DCT to work in stop-n-go Bay Area traffic every day - I have no problem whatsoever with the DCT. Like CanAutM3 I drive it in 'manual' mode all the time. I never let the car choose when to shift or which gear to be in.

I have no problems whatsoever with "clunkiness" ... and perhaps this is because I drove manual transmissions for 30 years and treat this car the same way. I don't ask it to change gears at stupid times, and have some sensibility for the engine revs. And, much like driving an MT, I would never downshift to first unless the car is stationary (the car will do this for you just fine if you come to a stop).

The DCT puts a grin on my face every time I get the chance to drive it hard. Downshifts under braking just make the most wonderful sounds.

And I absolutely love it on the track. It gives me more control than I ever had driving my 6MT M3s on the track. If I were confident enough to do fast, perfect heel/toe downshifts then an MT might come close- but I'm not that good and I don't want to take those risks learning.

In contrast, every experience I've had of a ZF8 (e.g. M335i, X3M Comp), and most trusted reviews of people driving ZF8 M-cars on a track (M5, M8) have pointed out that you just can't trust the transmission to change gear when you want it to - making them a nightmare to drive in manual mode.

And in full-auto mode, the car can't see the road ahead, so it will always be in the wrong gear. You only have to listen to any video of a G80 M3 on the ring to hear that the car often changes up on the way into corners as the driver lifts, and then has to do panic downshifts on the exits. This would drive me NUTS (much like the feeling when my wife drives the current M4 in 'full auto' and I'm a passenger)

Basically, there's no fun/point driving an M car in full-auto.
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      05-29-2020, 11:08 AM   #306
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I agree, the M3 would be the wrong car, if it was like you want it to be. But it isn't like you want it to be, it will not have a DCT. People are buying the car not based on what they want the car to be, what the car should have been or what the heritage dictates, but based on what the car is. And this car will have a converter auto and this is why it will be the right car, even for bumper to bumper traffic. The problem is, that nobody will buy the car, except for a very small minority, if the car was how you want it to be: Radical, DCT, track focused, hard suspension setup etc.
This is a very short sighted comment and of oxymoron.
There are lots of fast, luxury cars out there. People choose M3/4 because it is 1. a BMW and 2. an M car. They like the characteristics, history and prestige behind it. If BMW stops making cars of motorsport nature of which made the subbrand M, they are lost in identity and eventually will perish.

I would understand if BMW wanted to charge more for the same DCT/MT package and there will be lots of current owners including myself who are willing to pay extra for keeping the iconic sports sedan longer in the shrinking market, but it seems instead they are forcing majority of avid drivers altogether to make an inferior purchase to what was offered 6 years ago. M cars were never directed at people who wanted S-class equivalent ride; it was for people who wanted 911 feel and performance while retaining practicality.

These are very emotional purchases and any change that brings the car closer to mainstream cars that offer comfort, efficient, and luxurious ride instead of keeping its uniqueness will act adversely on the M division sales.

Maybe it's BMW group's plan to ultimately fade out motorsport division. They have always been pussycats to put R&D into motorsport since F1 days.
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      05-29-2020, 11:19 AM   #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
This is a very short sighted comment and of oxymoron.
There are lots of fast, luxury cars out there. People choose M3/4 because it is 1. a BMW and 2. an M car. They like the characteristics, history and prestige behind it. If BMW stops making cars of motorsport nature of which made the subbrand M, they are lost in identity and eventually will perish.

I would understand if BMW wanted to charge more for the same DCT/MT package and there will be lots of current owners including myself who are willing to pay extra for keeping the iconic sports sedan longer in the shrinking market, but it seems instead they are forcing majority of avid drivers altogether to make an inferior purchase to what was offered 6 years ago. M cars were never directed at people who wanted S-class equivalent ride; it was for people who wanted 911 feel and performance while retaining practicality.

These are very emotional purchases and any change that brings the car closer to mainstream cars that offer comfort, efficient, and luxurious ride instead of keeping its uniqueness will act adversely on the M division sales.

Maybe it's BMW group's plan to ultimately fade out motorsport division. They have always been pussycats to put R&D into motorsport since F1 days.
The inevitable move to hybrids and EVs got to be a challenge for a brand which Motorsport fame is closely connected to brilliant and powerful ICEs. How do you keep that alive with engines types (electric) having little to no character difference and likely 3rd party sourced? If BMW was forced of one reason or another to source a new DCT the time to recoup the investment would maybe only be one model taking the coming of hybrids. Not an easy request to get through the bean counters.
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      05-29-2020, 11:26 AM   #308
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The inevitable move to hybrids and EVs got to be a challenge for a brand which Motorsport fame is closely connected to brilliant and powerful ICEs. How do you keep that alive with engines types (electric) having little to no character difference and likely 3rd party sourced? If BMW was forced of one reason or another to source a new DCT the time to recoup the investment would maybe only be one model taking the coming of hybrids. Not an easy request to get through the bean counters.
In no means do I want to sound patronizing, but I believe any major challenge you overcome while retaining your own philosophy becomes a huge asset for the future.

This feels like BMW is intentionally avoiding the challenge altogether. They need to invest in making icons that can rival 918 and trickle down the motorsport DNA instead of pleasing bean counters who cannot offer any vision for future models other than financial plans.
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