[Forzanerazzurri]

Originally Posted by Tyga11

There is no wow factor with the Blackwing. The car is very bland.

For that kind of money, I would get an RS7 or an RS6 all day.

C'mon dude..

[MCM4]

Originally Posted by Tyga11

There is no wow factor with the Blackwing. The car is very bland.

For that kind of money, I would get an RS7 or an RS6 all day.

Comes down to the priorities of why you buy the car in the first place. I had a splendidly loaded 2022 M4 Competition xDrive. Skyscraper, Full Tartufo, carbon, the works. Damn it was a sexy and visually exciting machine.

But to describe driving it in a single word, I'll borrow yours. Bland.

So if you care about actually driving, do yourself a favor and don't ever pilot a CT5-V Blackwing. If you do, and you are truly honest about the experience, you'll realize what you are missing.

[Tyga11]

Originally Posted by MCM4

Comes down to the priorities of why you buy the car in the first place. I had a splendidly loaded 2022 M4 Competition xDrive. Skyscraper, Full Tartufo, carbon, the works. Damn it was a sexy and visually exciting machine.

But to describe driving it in a single word, I'll borrow yours. Bland.

So if you care about actually driving, do yourself a favor and don't ever pilot a CT5-V Blackwing. If you do, and you are truly honest about the experience, you'll realize what you are missing.

I actually agree with you re the M4. I've said multiple times over the past 2 years of ownership the car is numb and is overrated from a drivers experience. It's a GT car, which is fine.

Looks play a factor into my opinion. I've seen the Blackwing once - last year at Barrett Jackson Scottsdale. It was the blue color and it was visually unappealing. I would never buy one.

I'm sure it does drive amazing but I can't get over the looks...I prefer the previous generation CTS-V visually.

[MCM4]

Originally Posted by Tyga11

I actually agree with you re the M4. I've said multiple times over the past 2 years of ownership the car is numb and is overrated from a drivers experience. It's a GT car, which is fine.

Looks play a factor into my opinion. I've seen the Blackwing once - last year at Barrett Jackson Scottsdale. It was the blue color and it was visually unappealing. I would never buy one.

I'm sure it does drive amazing but I can't get over the looks...I prefer the previous generation CTS-V visually.

Completely fair and understandable. I happen to like the Blackwing's understated looks, but I LOVED my M4, inside and out. I have tried to be as fair to both machines as possible. I enjoyed so much about the M4, and it was my first BMW. It felt so solid, the fit and finish were great, the cabin was expertly designed (ID7 of course, I much prefer my Blackwing's dated design to the ID8, but ID7 was killer). But I daily drive a truck, and the car was purchased to have one great ICE while still available. I bought it specifically for driving enjoyment, and for my tastes, the Blackwing 5 is perfectly serving this wish. It is so damn fun to drive, I have never experienced anything like it aside from my motorcycle. If on the other hand I coveted a more premium aesthetic and cabin, I would have kept the M4.

[playswcars]

I’d go blackwing. I couldn’t because we don’t get them in Europe, so I went G80.

[nerdrum]

Originally Posted by MCM4

Completely fair and understandable. I happen to like the Blackwing's understated looks, but I LOVED my M4, inside and out. I have tried to be as fair to both machines as possible. I enjoyed so much about the M4, and it was my first BMW. It felt so solid, the fit and finish were great, the cabin was expertly designed (ID7 of course, I much prefer my Blackwing's dated design to the ID8, but ID7 was killer). But I daily drive a truck, and the car was purchased to have one great ICE while still available. I bought it specifically for driving enjoyment, and for my tastes, the Blackwing 5 is perfectly serving this wish. It is so damn fun to drive, I have never experienced anything like it aside from my motorcycle. If on the other hand I coveted a more premium aesthetic and cabin, I would have kept the M4.

I think we all get a bit overwhelmed with benchmarks and wanting the "ideal" fastest possible vehicle. Yes, the ctv4's 6mt felt infinitely better than my own g80 6mt, sure the car felt way more responsive and less computer-y overall from the g80.

But, the NVH differences between the car from an actual livability standpoint is night and day. I'm not at a track on a daily basis. I like a comfortable cabin and I'm sorry but the amount of shared parts on the interior of the Cadillac from an impala or whatever other GM's part bin plus the 12-15k ADM here in SoCal made it a really hard choice in comparison to what I ended up with.

[Schn3ll]

Originally Posted by nerdrum

But, the NVH differences between the car from an actual livability standpoint is night and day. I'm not at a track on a daily basis. I like a comfortable cabin and I'm sorry but the amount of shared parts on the interior of the Cadillac from an impala or whatever other GM's part bin plus the 12-15k ADM here in SoCal made it a really hard choice in comparison to what I ended up with.

Kinda shocked to hear this, maybe you didn't play with the suspension settings enough? In Tour mode, the suspension is softer and more compliant than the M3, no doubt in my mind, I've driven both extensively within about a week of each other. And the exhaust will quiet down a lot in different modes.

And regarding the interior, I know this is a BMW forum, but you can't just spout off nonsense and expect not to be challenged.

Last year of Impala (2020) interior:


CT4V Blackwing Interior:


Tell me, what's shared here?

And I actually got my blackwing under sticker. You just need to shop around.

[MCM4]

My adoration for the ID7 interior is well know. I think it is near perfect. ID8, I would never own. I could care less for screen resolution in my car. I want my displays built in, especially the one in front of the driver. My M4 ID7 was, again, near perfect.

When I drive my Blackwing, I hardly ever look at my center stack. In my M4, I did all the time, frequently navigating menus as I drove.

The BMW interior easily wins for me. However, there are several things I have to give Cadillac the advantage on, and what a surprise, they are all for driving:

- Steering wheel - the design looks nicer and it is just a bit smaller on diameter, I also prefer the button layout.
- Driver display cluster, more configurable and a much better layout for shifting gears
- Seats. This one is close, but I have the top tier Caddy carbon buckets, and find them to be in the middle of the BMW Sport Seats and BMW carbon buckets. Comfort of the sport seats with the support of the carbon buckets, without the ridiculous hump. And I really did enjoy the M4 sport seats. The carbon buckets did not fit me so well when I tried them (but they sure look cool).

[jm490]

Originally Posted by Schn3ll

Kinda shocked to hear this, maybe you didn't play with the suspension settings enough? In Tour mode, the suspension is softer and more compliant than the M3, no doubt in my mind, I've driven both extensively within about a week of each other. And the exhaust will quiet down a lot in different modes.

And regarding the interior, I know this is a BMW forum, but you can't just spout off nonsense and expect not to be challenged.

Last year of Impala (2020) interior:


CT4V Blackwing Interior:


Tell me, what's shared here?

And I actually got my blackwing under sticker. You just need to shop around.

Shared or not its pretty clear that the M3/4 interior is FAR superior to either one of these. I love both the 4/5 BW's but lets be honest here the interiors do not compare. Driver feel and engine feel goes to the BW's but overall fit and finish is a clear win for the BMW imo.

[MKParris]

One of them is a chevy. The other is not. There is the answer.

[MCM4]

Originally Posted by jm490

Shared or not its pretty clear that the M3/4 interior is FAR superior to either one of these. I love both the 4/5 BW's but lets be honest here the interiors do not compare. Driver feel and engine feel goes to the BW's but overall fit and finish is a clear win for the BMW imo.

I agree 100%, aside from the driver display and steering wheel. Seats are debatable, I own Cadillac's top tier carbon buckets and prefer them to both BMW choices, but who cares. Steering wheel and driver display - easy win for Cadillac.

[Schn3ll]

Originally Posted by jm490

Shared or not its pretty clear that the M3/4 interior is FAR superior to either one of these. I love both the 4/5 BW's but lets be honest here the interiors do not compare. Driver feel and engine feel goes to the BW's but overall fit and finish is a clear win for the BMW imo.

I would disagree, strictly speaking about fit and finish. This is a very common misnomer of many drooling fanboiz, case in point:

One of them is a chevy. The other is not. There is the answer.

Fit and finish actually means gap tightness, tolerance stack, secureness of fasteners, part placement, alignment, etc. With the advent of precision computer modeling/simulation tools and GD&T principles, most major automotive manufacturers today have objectively excellent fit and finish (save for Tesla maybe).

I think what people construe (incorrectly) as fit and finish, they mean materials/features. And between the Blackwing's and M3 the materials are roughly the same (carbon when you expect it, leather where you expect it, suede headliner and seatbacks (on Blackwing). Objectively, my Blackwing has nicer finishes than my 991.2 did.

If some are referring to quality, that's another story - but GM has great initial quality and reliability scores.

I never understood the blind loyalty to one brand or allowing others to inform their opinions, I've owned cars from every major German luxury brand (including 3 M cars), and Caddy has been near the top of all cars I've owned (only the 911 is better).

What is far superior? Larger screen(s)? RGB LEDs to make it looks like a rave inside? Carbon fiber between your legs? More silvery plastic trim? Less physical buttons?

A lot of this is subjective and shouldn't be discussed in context of objectivity.

[jm490]

Originally Posted by Schn3ll

I would disagree, strictly speaking about fit and finish. This is a very common misnomer of many drooling fanboiz, case in point:



Fit and finish actually means gap tightness, tolerance stack, secureness of fasteners, part placement, alignment, etc. With the advent of precision computer modeling/simulation tools and GD&T principles, most major automotive manufacturers today have objectively excellent fit and finish (save for Tesla maybe).

I think what people construe (incorrectly) as fit and finish, they mean materials/features. And between the Blackwing's and M3 the materials are roughly the same (carbon when you expect it, leather where you expect it, suede headliner and seatbacks (on Blackwing). Objectively, my Blackwing has nicer finishes than my 991.2 did.

If some are referring to quality, that's another story - but GM has great initial quality and reliability scores.

I never understood the blind loyalty to one brand or allowing others to inform their opinions, I've owned cars from every major German luxury brand (including 3 M cars), and Caddy has been near the top of all cars I've owned (only the 911 is better).

What is far superior? Larger screen(s)? RGB LEDs to make it looks like a rave inside? Carbon fiber between your legs? More silvery plastic trim? Less physical buttons?

A lot of this is subjective and shouldn't be discussed in context of objectivity.

Your opinion is as subjective as can be coming from someone saying lets talk objectively. This is a subjective matter for the most part unless you get an non-biased judge and ask them to rate each ones fit and finish and "quality."

Fit, finish, quality, subjectively or objectively whichever you'd prefer at this point since they are being skewed are both not on the same level as the M3.

I've had in order an M2, GTR, Range Rover Autobiography, 991.1 GT3, 22' G80 M3, 21' F90 M5.

I've driven on several Sunday mornings my friends 5 Blackwing.

The fit finish quality is far superior in my OPINION on the M3 over the BW and EASILY FAR superior in the M5 over anything on that list. The BW's fun factor easily tops the M3/5 and it was a complete JOY to drive. It is a great car and brings alot of smiles which the M3 could not do for me and the M5 does but not as much. The GT3 was easily the best drivers car I have ever owned but thats a different story. We are talking about fit and finish and quality which the Cadillac product does not match up to. Fanboiz or not whatever you want to try to say to make yourself feel better about your purchase is fine. I've owned enough high end cars to know when someone is insecure about it and trying to justify fit and finish which doesnt matter. Its just peoples opinions online. Enjoy your ride and dont get sensitive and start calling people fanboiz when you know nothing. The BW looks and feels like crap compared to the M's inside point blank. Thats my Objective opinion and you dont need to like it. But you will definitely be smiling when you drive it cause the engine and feel of the car takes your attention away from the "FIT & FINISH" or shall i say "QUALITY"

[strohw]

Moving from a X3M into a CT4 BW, the interior material quality difference was fairly obvious. The CT4 isn't as good. Everything from the leather on the door cards to the the steering wheel stalk isn't as nice. I could actually list many different things that are just nicer in the interior of the X3M/M3.

After a couple of weeks I got use to it and now I don't notice or care really. For me the really big one is the seats. If the seat feels great as a daily then I can accept a lot in either direction. I will say the CT5 interior is nearly identical to the CT4 so at the 5s price point it definitely feels a bit out of place.

[vj123]

Originally Posted by MKParris

One of them is a chevy. The other is not. There is the answer.

Lol to the people who consider 5BW to be just another Chevy.

[willywilson]

If it's American made, hard pass. Quality is so bad.

[reNT]

ct5 blackwing is much more exciting from the driver's engagement POV than the G80. If you want a quality interior, get a lexus, if you want exciting driving dynamics, get a manual blackwing, if you are not sure what you want, then play it safe and get something in between like the G80 which won't excite you all that much, but it won't disappoint too much in any category either.

[mirob]

Originally Posted by reNT

ct5 blackwing is much more exciting from the driver's engagement POV than the G80. If you want a quality interior, get a lexus, if you want exciting driving dynamics, get a manual blackwing, if you are not sure what you want, then play it safe and get something in between like the G80 which won't excite you all that much, but it won't disappoint too much in any category either.

I'm confused why you're in a G8X. Was mediocrity a requirement for you when you were buying?

[reNT]

Originally Posted by mirob

I'm confused why you're in a G8X. Was mediocrity a requirement for you when you were buying?

[Jetolso]

Cadillacs are meh. Let’s revisit this in 15 years and see.

[kassad]

Ive got 150k on my 2013 328 6MT and I'm on the hunt for my next car. 6MT and four doors are the only "requirements". Ive driven both manual variants of the CT4 V Blackwing and the pre-LCI M3 a few times now. I wouldnt consider myself a fanboy for either brand. That said, I've loved my time with the 328, its been a great car all around.

Ill just go kind of point by point BW vs M3 from my notes...

Pre LCI M3 interior: I love the interior. It feels like a fancy space ship. Plenty of room, especially in the back seat. I personally didnt like the carbon fiber seats, though they looked really cool. Sport seats were great, comfortable, supportive, easy to get in and out of, lots of adjustment. Great HVAC controls, the Idrive controller is fantastic. The capacitive shortcut buttons are my favorite interior feature on any car ive ever been in. Materials, fit and finish are all great, and suit the price of the car.

BW interior: its fine. Materials are good, fit and finish is pretty good. There are the occasional pieces like the turn signal stalks that seem out of place in a luxury car. The controls are laid out well, with minimal touch screen engagement necessary. Seats are equally comfy, the sports seats may be a touch more firm, but I found a comfortable position. Back seat is really tight. The BW interior overall doesnt elicit the feeling of "specialness" that the M3 evokes. Clear win for the M3.

Tech: Both have more tech than I need. My requirements are apple car play and a decent stereo. Both touchscreen interfaces are fairly simple and responsive. I prefer the gauge cluster in the BW, its more customizable and easier to read, but the center screen is really tacky looking. I'd give the win to the M3 for overall integration and because I really do love the capacitive short cut buttons.

Exterior: the M3 is more flashy, the BW is a sleeper without the carbon fiber 1 package. Personal choice, and I like both cars for different reasons.

Chassis: BW all the way. It has amazing bandwidth. It can feel soft, like a cadillac of old when in tour mode. In sport and track, it is stiff, taut, and responsive. Its magic. I wouldnt say the steering feedback is great, but its more than you get in the M3. The BW shrinks around you, makes you feel confident and encourages you to push the corners harder. And smile while youre doing it. Maybe Cadillac's PTMS is just more impercptible, I dont know. I think the lack of tactile feedback in the M3 is the biggest culprit in driving experience. It handled every twist I through at it, but I never felt as sure prior to chucking it into the corner. BW easy win.

Engine: I like the I6 better, but with a caveat. The piped-in sounds are getting outrageous. BMW needs to dial it back. The V6 isnt as far behind as it used to be. Its responsive, builds revs quickly, its linear, and it pulls hard throughout the range. The sounds is pretty decent, throaty, rumbly. Also it goes from really quiet to really loud with the valving, which is nice while driving through the neighborhood. The pops and burbles on both are a little over the top, but some folks like that. Ill give the I6 the win, but I like V6 and wouldnt feel like it was a consolation prize.

Manual transmission: Like has been said previously in this thread, dont drive the BW if your happy with the M3 shifter. The Tremec is amazing and its not even close. Its the best shifter Ive ever had the pleasure of rowing.

Brakes: both seemed great, but I didnt push either hard enough to tell much difference.


Im ordering the blackwing over the M3. The car was just all around more fun to drive, had more bandwidth, and made me smile more. On top of that, you save 15k in process. If you stick with the base seats and skip the carbon, its like M340i money. I dont know why anyone would choose the manual M3 over the manual BW, unless they really needed the backseat room. Im sure the m3 comp is in another league, but thats getting close to a 5BW price.

Now im waiting to see what the 2024 LCI for the CT4 will be, supposedly they are upgrading the interior to something like the XT4's refresh. So the stupid ID8 in the m3 might look pretty similar to the BW. Did they really get rid of the capacitive short cut buttons????

New M3 interior:


Vs new XT4 interior:

[vj123]

Originally Posted by kassad

Now im waiting to see what the 2024 LCI for the CT4 will be, supposedly they are upgrading the interior to something like the XT4's refresh. So the stupid ID8 in the m3 might look pretty similar to the BW. Did they really get rid of the capacitive short cut buttons????

I believe its rumored that only non BWs would get the interior update with MY24 refresh and i hope thats true.