[PhJ]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Wow, what a pointless rant. You should look up the AM&S complaints department .

For me, the only number that matters is the actual weight of the car they had on hand as it provides one more datapoint that allows to get a true appreciation of the vehicle weight.

IMO, we are going down the rabbit hole of an overly anal and pointless micro analysis. What is the general point/message you and dgm3 are trying to bring forth here? What specifically are you trying to demonstrate/prove?

CatAutM3,
Car scientific magazines have to provide clear, relevant and understandable car manufacturer data as well as measured data. Auto Motor und Sport (AM&S) provides many measured data of high quality and is one of the most detailed car scientific magazine for that. But they could do a better job concerning car weights.

Thanks to your good suggestion, CanAutM3, AM&S will have the opportunity to improve their reporting on car weights.

I went out yesterday for shopping and stopped by at a magazine shop to buy the last edition of AM&S, even if the cover page was not very attractive but this is not what I was searching for. I read on page 3 what I was looking for: the name and the email address of the 'Chefredakteurin'( chief editor) : Birgit Priemer, bpriemer@motorpresse.de. I will write to her a kind email asking her what AM&S means by leergewicht and I will speak about the confusion about using leergewicht for either DIN or EU figures in their car test reviews, suggesting to add EU or DIN whenever it is relevant. I will keep you informed.

Concerning the real weight of my 2014 F80 MT, I contacted a BMW dealer as well as the Automobile Club of Luxembourg (ACL) to find out if they could weigh a car. No positive reply so far. If anybody has an idea about the type of garage or shop where I could get a car weigh measurement service, it is more than welcome. I will continue investigating.
I wish a nice week-end to all of you.
PhJ

[PhJ]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

As I posted earlier, what "factory options" now need to be included in the DIN/EU weight is not 100% clear to me. And I will reiterate here, when I say "factory options" I mean the entire pallete of "options" the BMW AG factory offers to local distributors (BMW USA/BMW UK/BMW Germany/etc) and not the options or packages that can be ticked by individual buyers in local markets. This is a key point because the configuration of what is considered a "base car without options" varies significantly from market to market. For example, in Canada, the F8X came standard with many features that are optional elsewhere in the world, such as 19" wheel, HK sound, comfort access, luggage nets, heated seats, heated steering wheel, alarm system etc...

When the F8X was released, there were many items that were considered optional by the BMW factory, such as the dual zone climate control, heated seats, electric seats, 2 possible sound system upgrade (6-speakers/9-speakers/16-speakers), folding rear seats, etc... Since a different mix of those options were offered as standard in the different markets, it was not possible to order a car at that 1,497kg DIN weight anywhere in the world. Even BMW Germany offered many factory options as standard in their local market.

Now with the new DIN/EU standard, it is not clear to me what "factory options" need to be included or excluded. Is it the "base car" offered in Germany? Or is it an "average base car" for Europe? Or an "average base car" for the world? My best guess would be on the first, DIN is a German standard after all.

All I know for sure is that comparing DIN/EU weight will not give an accurate appreciation of the weight difference between vehicles. I personally prefer to use a sampling of actual weighing from multiple reliable sources to get a range. But that requires more work and is not as satisfying to many as just having a single number to boil it down to.

CatAutM3,
Good summary on the complexity of weights and informative post ! Unfortunately, sampling of actual weighing of test cars is rarely available and difficult to compare with the weighing of other cars, considering the wide range of available standard configurations and options, unless an expert can provide a clear picture of the rules (and their history...). The only solid information seems to be finally the weight difference of 75 kg between EU and DIN weights for a given specific car.
PhJ

[RugbyBro]

Why don't we all just wait for the actual scale weights to be posted on this forum? Won't be long as these are getting into the wild very soon and no doubt people will get them on scales pretty quickly.

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

Why don't we all just wait for the actual scale weights to be posted on this forum? Won't be long as these are getting into the wild very soon and no doubt people will get them on scales pretty quickly.

The wait is an issue

[PhJ]

Originally Posted by PhJ

bm323,
That is not correct. The chart means that the EU weight of the 2019 F82 manual was 1645 kg and not the DIN weight. This means that the weight difference is 130 kg with the claimed EU weight of 1775 kg for G82 MT. Still a lot but much less than the 203 kg difference between the claimed 'old EU' weight of F82 MT and 'new EU' weight of G82 MT.
I think I am going to go to a specialist to measure the weight of my 2014 F80 MT to find out if my F80 weighs also more than the claimed EU weight of 1595 kg of 2014.
PhJ

As told in the post above, I finally found someone able to weigh my 2014 M3 F80 MT to find out if it weighs also more than the claimed EU weight of 1595 kg in 2014. Guess what it is : a company selling and delivering home heating fuel, wood pellets, building materials and other stuffs !
I therefore contacted this company and they told me that they have a platform floor scale to weigh cars and trucks. They said I could come whenever I want during the opening hours. Bingo !!!! The cost to weigh a car is ... 5 € ! I can afford it... I drove my F80 MT to a petrol station 200 m away from that company, filled up the tank, drove up to there and put my car ob platform floor scale and here it is :


Big but expected disappointment concerning the weight of my M3 F80 MT of 2014, expected considering what I learned from this thread.



The extensive standard equipment provided on F8x cars sold in Belgium/Luxembourg, combined with optional equipments I ticked when I purchased my F80, leads to a well equipped car which matches well with the equipment available on a standard G80 MT. So it is a good base to get a more realistic estimate of the REAL weight increase from F80 MT to G80 MT which, at the end, is about half the original assessment. This is a good news for the new G8x. On the other hand, it is pity to uncover that the well known weight standards DIN and EU have been misinterpreted (in the past only ?) to the benefit of publishing car unrealistically lower weights. Further investigation is needed to sort out this hot topic and weight legislation may have to be consolidated to avoid this issue in the future.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by PhJ

As told in the post above, I finally found someone able to weigh my 2014 M3 F80 MT to find out if it weighs also more than the claimed EU weight of 1595 kg in 2014. Guess what it is : a company selling and delivering home heating fuel, wood pellets, building materials and other stuffs !
I therefore contacted this company and they told me that they have a platform floor scale to weigh cars and trucks. They said I could come whenever I want during the opening hours. Bingo !!!! The cost to weigh a car is ... 5 € ! I can afford it... I drove my F80 MT to a petrol station 200 m away from that company, filled up the tank, drove up to there and put my car ob platform floor scale and here it is :


Big but expected disappointment concerning the weight of my M3 F80 MT of 2014, expected considering what I learned from this thread.



The extensive standard equipment provided on F8x cars sold in Belgium/Luxembourg, combined with optional equipments I ticked when I purchased my F80, leads to a well equipped car which matches well with the equipment available on a standard G80 MT. So it is a good base to get a more realistic estimate of the REAL weight increase from F80 MT to G80 MT which, at the end, is about half the original assessment. This is a good news for the new G8x. On the other hand, it is pity to uncover that the well known weight standards DIN and EU have been misinterpreted (in the past only ?) to the benefit of publishing car unrealistically lower weights. Further investigation is needed to sort out this hot topic and weight legislation may have to be consolidated to avoid this issue in the future.

Good that you were able to put your car on scales and get a better perspective on its actual weight. Your number seems in the right ball park compared to others that have weighed theirs given your car's spec.

You are however making the same mistake again by not comparing apples-to-apples (actual weight vs EU) and trying to boil it down to a single number. A range of weight difference remains the best representation.

[scoale]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

Why don't we all just wait for the actual scale weights to be posted on this forum? Won't be long as these are getting into the wild very soon and no doubt people will get them on scales pretty quickly.

Better still, drive the thing and see whether you still think the weight is a problem for you.

[dms-01]

I don't think it is. Drove a comp today and it moves regardless of whatever it weighs. But like the previous poster said drive one and decide for yourself.

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by scoale

Better still, drive the thing and see whether you still think the weight is a problem for you.

Oh I am eagerly waiting for this years M Town Tour to do so. I have some issues with G8X (and BMW as of late) fundamentally but I’ll still give it its day on the road as I want this car to surprise me. Weight is only one of a few things I’m curious about and would like to be wrong about, however, I’ve driven cars at that weight and above with that level of power, many iterations of ZF8, late F chassis and G chassis M and Non-M cars, and I also understand the direction BMW is taking... I have a pretty good idea of what to expect. I’m not going to sit here and say it’s the end of days but I fully expect it to drive like a bigger, slightly to generally (model dependent) faster F8X with larger front tires + more camber, a less crisp transmission, and more compliant/insulated ride

[VIERsr]

Originally Posted by PhJ

As told in the post above, I finally found someone able to weigh my 2014 M3 F80 MT to find out if it weighs also more than the claimed EU weight of 1595 kg in 2014. Guess what it is : a company selling and delivering home heating fuel, wood pellets, building materials and other stuffs !
I therefore contacted this company and they told me that they have a platform floor scale to weigh cars and trucks. They said I could come whenever I want during the opening hours. Bingo !!!! The cost to weigh a car is ... 5 € ! I can afford it... I drove my F80 MT to a petrol station 200 m away from that company, filled up the tank, drove up to there and put my car ob platform floor scale and here it is :


Big but expected disappointment concerning the weight of my M3 F80 MT of 2014, expected considering what I learned from this thread.



The extensive standard equipment provided on F8x cars sold in Belgium/Luxembourg, combined with optional equipments I ticked when I purchased my F80, leads to a well equipped car which matches well with the equipment available on a standard G80 MT. So it is a good base to get a more realistic estimate of the REAL weight increase from F80 MT to G80 MT which, at the end, is about half the original assessment. This is a good news for the new G8x. On the other hand, it is pity to uncover that the well known weight standards DIN and EU have been misinterpreted (in the past only ?) to the benefit of publishing car unrealistically lower weights. Further investigation is needed to sort out this hot topic and weight legislation may have to be consolidated to avoid this issue in the future.

Basically what someone was trying to say from the beginning

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

80kg is in the right ballpark for very light spec cars of each. In the real world, I believe the weight difference will be greater due to available options. For example, the weight difference between the CCB and iron brake setup is much more significant on the G8X (~25kg) than on the F8X (~8kg). Another example is the standard seats with ventilation that will further increase the weight difference. IMO, the real world difference will be more in the 80-135kg range for RWD cars.

[bm323]

Originally Posted by PhJ

Big but expected disappointment concerning the weight of my M3 F80 MT of 2014, expected considering what I learned from this thread.



The extensive standard equipment provided on F8x cars sold in Belgium/Luxembourg, combined with optional equipments I ticked when I purchased my F80, leads to a well equipped car which matches well with the equipment available on a standard G80 MT. So it is a good base to get a more realistic estimate of the REAL weight increase from F80 MT to G80 MT which, at the end, is about half the original assessment. This is a good news for the new G8x. On the other hand, it is pity to uncover that the well known weight standards DIN and EU have been misinterpreted (in the past only ?) to the benefit of publishing car unrealistically lower weights. Further investigation is needed to sort out this hot topic and weight legislation may have to be consolidated to avoid this issue in the future.

It appears that you obtained a difference of only 89 kg by computation, using your rather loaded F80 (1620 kg) weight against a very lightly loaded/lightest available 1674 kg from the M video adding only 25 + 5 kg; comparison likely to be incorrect.

[bm323]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

In all fairness, 80kg of difference is on the low side of the spectrum

You are correct (again). What is the actual weight difference between the E9x and the F9X for comparably specced cars?

[PhJ]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Good that you were able to put your car on scales and get a better perspective on its actual weight. Your number seems in the right ball park compared to others that have weighed theirs given your car's spec.

You are however making the same mistake again by not comparing apples-to-apples (actual weight vs EU) and trying to boil it down to a single number. A range of weight difference remains the best representation.

Hello CanAutM3,
Welcome back and thanks for your comment. I have two observations:

-> Can you explain in more detail what you mean by" You are however making the same mistake again by not comparing apples-to-apples (actual weight vs EU)" ?
As most weight figures claimed by car manufacturers are in EU kg, it makes sense to 'convert' a measured weight into a pseudo EU weight to compare it to the claimed EU weight. Otherwise, the claimed EU weight is of no interest and should not be mentioned anywhere. I say 'pseudo' EU weight as nobody knows at the end the exact configuration of the car used by BMW to claim 1595 EU kg as weight for the F80 MT in 2014. We even do not know, as you said in a previous note, if the car used for the 'claimed' EU weight could be bought with this configuration in any country at all.

-> I agree with you that it is interesting to collect a range of weight differences for a car. Can you please unveil the range of weights you have collected so far for the F80 MT and AUT respectively and tell us what was the config for the two extreme weights for each model ? This will tell us by how much the weight can vary in the real world for F80 depending on the standard and available optional equipements selected. I am curious to find out if the weight difference could be as big as ~100 kg for F80. 100 kg seems to me a lot for simply features & equipment. Maybe I am wrong. Unless car manufacturers choose cars without wheels, without steering wheel and without transmission to claim their EU weight figures. Who knows ? Thanks in advance.
PhJ

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by PhJ

Hello CanAutM3,
Welcome back and thanks for your comment. I have two observations:

-> Can you explain in more detail what you mean by" You are however making the same mistake again by not comparing apples-to-apples (actual weight vs EU)" ?
As most weight figures claimed by car manufacturers are in EU kg, it makes sense to 'convert' a measured weight into a pseudo EU weight to compare it to the claimed EU weight. Otherwise, the claimed EU weight is of no interest and should not be mentioned anywhere. I say 'pseudo' EU weight as nobody knows at the end the exact configuration of the car used by BMW to claim 1595 EU kg as weight for the F80 MT in 2014. We even do not know, as you said in a previous note, if the car used for the 'claimed' EU weight could be bought with this configuration in any country at all.

-> I agree with you that it is interesting to collect a range of weight differences for a car. Can you please unveil the range of weights you have collected so far for the F80 MT and AUT respectively and tell us what was the config for the two extreme weights for each model ? This will tell us by how much the weight can vary in the real world for F80 depending on the standard and available optional equipements selected. I am curious to find out if the weight difference could be as big as ~100 kg for F80. 100 kg seems to me a lot for simply features & equipment. Maybe I am wrong. Unless car manufacturers choose cars without wheels, without steering wheel and without transmission to claim their EU weight figures. Who knows ? Thanks in advance.
PhJ

The EU/DIN weights matter because they are required for certification. They also provide an indication of a particular model's weight. But it is not the end all and behold number.

As I have posted earlier in the thread, the weight difference between various options/configurations has also changed between the F8X and the G8X, so comparing different specs of comparably specced cars will yield different differences (I had to read that twice ). As an example, coupe to sedan was ~20kg and is now ~5kg; and iron brakes to CCB was ~8kg and is now ~20kg; so comparing iron rotor coupes will show ~32kg more weight difference than comparing CCB sedans. That is why a single number does not work to properly depict the weight difference between generations.

I have not "collected" much since G8X real world weights are quite scarce at this stage. As I wrote in post 64, my best guesstimate is 80-135kg of weight difference for comparably specced cars. Real world difference will likely be even greater because the G8X comes with (rather heavy) options that were not available on the F8x, such as ventilated seats, self closing trunk and eventually AWD.

But I think we agree that the G8X in general will be quite the porker

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by bm323

You are correct (again). What is the actual weight difference between the E9x and the F9X for comparably specced cars?

I assume you mean F8X here.

On the top of my head, I'd say the F8X was 30-65kg LIGHTER than its E9X predecessor for comparably specced cars.

[bm323]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I assume you mean F8X here.

On the top of my head, I'd say the F8X was 30-60kg LIGHTER than its E9X predecessor for comparably specced cars.

Ah yes, F8X

[scoale]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I assume you mean F8X here.

On the top of my head, I'd say the F8X was 30-65kg LIGHTER than its E9X predecessor for comparably specced cars.

CanAutM3, as a prior owner of an E92 and current owner of F80, my impression is that the F80 feels lighter than ~100lb difference would suggest (my E92 always felt heavy to me). Not being an expert, I have always attributed that sensation to F80 chassis stiffness and suspension tuning, and lighter steering. If the same chassis/suspension evolution holds true for the G80, I think it possible it may not feel much heavier than an F80 in most instances....but we will see.

The size difference, on the other hand, probably will be noticeable. The E92 drove bigger than my E46, and the F80 drove bigger still (I was particularly struck by this on some of my first F80 test drives). And the new G80, of course, is significantly longer and a bit wider.

[bm323]

I would say it's due to the low end torque and steering.

[BimmerMat135]

I wonder how heavy will be the the G81 it doesn't look promising.

[scoale]

Originally Posted by bm323

I would say it's due to the low end torque and steering.

Good point on the low end torque; forgot about that.

[PhJ]

Originally Posted by bm323

It appears that you obtained a difference of only 89 kg by computation, using your rather loaded F80 (1620 kg) weight against a very lightly loaded/lightest available 1674 kg from the M video adding only 25 + 5 kg; comparison likely to be incorrect.

Hi bm323,
The real weight increase of 89 kg from F80 MT to G80 MT seems realistic to me. However, this remains a quite big weight increase despite being half of the initial estimate. Imagine that you drive alone your car and afterwards, you drive it with an additional passenger of ~ 90 kg. I am sure that you will immediately notice the weight difference while driving your car: lower accelerations, lower agility in the corners, and so on.
Back to your initial point. I say that the weight difference of 89 kg is realistic at least for the Belgium/Luxembourg market and this for the following reasons:
- it is based on the measured weights of my F80 MT and of a G82 MT, both with a full tank and without the driver.
-weight adjustments have been made for G82 MT to simulate G80 MT (+5kg) and to remove expensive lower weight packages (+30kg)
-last but not least, I believe that my F80 MT and the G80 MT are similarly specced. Why ?
* Because nearly all the standard equipement on F80 MT in Belgium/Lux is also standard equipment on G80 MT in Belgium/Lux. Remaining doubts are for headlight washing, rain sensors and automatic headlamps that I could not even find in the standard nor in the optional features of G80 MT. I would be very surprised if G80 MT would not have in standard equipment rain sensors and automatic headlamps (this would be a shame, in fact).
*Because the key optional features I ticked on my F80 MT are now standard on G80 MT, at least in Belgium/Lux, such as M sport adaptative suspension and Park Distance Control (PDC). I had nevertheless ticked the options High Beam Assist, Head Up Display (HUP) and tinted rear windows on my F80 MT. Those options are also optional on G80 MT. I don't know the increased weight involved (a few kgs ?) but I am pretty sure that these options were NOT on the measured G82 MT. Concerning the Speed Limit Info, I could not see this in the list of standard or optional features on G80 MT but it would be a shame if they would not be standard.
PhJ

[PhJ]

Originally Posted by scoale

Good point on the low end torque; forgot about that.

Scoale,
The low end torque is in fact one of my biggest fears concerning the G8x MT and to a lower extend also concerning G8x Comp. Weight is obviously also a concern.
Switching from a E92 naturally aspirated engine to a lighter F80 with a turbo engine with a massive low to medium end torque generated for sure quite a BIG smile on your face !
The S58 engine of G8x is a high rev engine compared to S55 in F80, meaning that it pulls harder at high revs. But a low revs, this is the reverse situation. For daily driving, high torque at low/medium revs is for me more important than high power at high revs. If you do not care about fuel consumption (in other words, if you live in the States !), no problem to always push to high revs to get the power... but the speed limits will stop your enthusiasm. So you will have to go driving on circuits !
PhJ