[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Poochie

More gears = faster car.. #Duh

It's science man

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[M3AWD]

Originally Posted by frankiebones

Bro you only say that because "siete-speed" doesn't have the same ring for a username.

You beat me to it

[Scorp!on]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

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[Remonster]

Originally Posted by erictrainer

Because cruising down the highway in 6th at 80mph and 3kish rpm is no fun. In this regard the DCT is much better.

That would be the only reason, at least in my book.

Why is it no fun? I absolutely hate cars that require you to downshift before you can overtake. My manual F80 (especially with BM3 stage 1 tune) could easily pass just about anybody without dropping down out of 6th gear. If your cruising RPMs are too low at highway speeds, especially with S58's low end torque deficit, then you'll be dead in the water in 7th gear.

[Bubbles]

A retro button cool. Happy to see BMW believes some still enjoy the process of driving, even if they think it is bad for our health and social media score.

[Lucky1]

Originally Posted by Remonster

Why is it no fun? I absolutely hate cars that require you to downshift before you can overtake. My manual F80 (especially with BM3 stage 1 tune) could easily pass just about anybody without dropping down out of 6th gear. If your cruising RPMs are too low at highway speeds, especially with S58's low end torque deficit, then you'll be dead in the water in 7th gear.

Just so everyone is on the same page...a manual transmission's purpose these days is for FUN right? Not utility. And downshifting is FUN isn't it? Just laying that out there. I hate cars that are point and squirt like EV's. Also these cars are so much fun if you're going to pass someone you want to aggressively downshift to 4th or 3rd and let her rip EVERY time c'mon lol :

Now here's the thing. I think seis-speed and others might be looking at the 7MT the wrong way. In the Porsche 991 the 7th gear is for cruising at lowest rpms for maximum fuel economy; absolutely in that car if you are below 80mph it will be like driving a Geo Metro if you mash the pedal in 7th for a pass at less than 80mph. You cannot achieve maximum speed in top gear in that box; due to gearing it has to be in 6th for maximum warp. Now if you are on the Autobahn way above 80mph you can ABSOLUTELY pass in 7th because the rpms will be higher in the torque curve. In fact in regular GT life if you are barreling down at 80mph on a 70mph you will naturally "pass" people anyway due to speed.

But this is why at sub 80mph if you're not on cruise control below those speeds and need frequent passing you LEAVE it in 6th or even 5th in the case of 67mph or lower and then the engine is turning at 3k or so and you have instant power at your foot and you are no worse off than if you only had a 6MT that turns at 3k on highway anyway.

Based on all that why the obsession with being in top gear ALL the time? I learn to drive around it and its just as utilitarian, possibly more AND its more fun which is why I bought the manual.

Where I hear people say the 7MT went wrong is "feel" due to "too many gates" or complexity or feel or whatever but I have a 128i and Z4MR with 6 speed gearboxes and my 7MT in the Porsche is definitely my favourite of the three. Track cars like the GT3 still keep a six speed for the track but for real world GT Life 7MT isn't bad IMO.

[TheStanman]

Originally Posted by Remonster

Why is it no fun? I absolutely hate cars that require you to downshift before you can overtake. My manual F80 (especially with BM3 stage 1 tune) could easily pass just about anybody without dropping down out of 6th gear. If your cruising RPMs are too low at highway speeds, especially with S58's low end torque deficit, then you'll be dead in the water in 7th gear.

Pro-tip: you can leave your 7-speed in 6th gear while cruising if you prefer.

Agree that cruising at 3K RPMs is not great for fuel economy or NVH on a road trip. 7th gear also helps meet emissions regulations, allowing manuals and gas engines to be offered for longer.

[b2nvs2001]

Credit where credit is due - thanks for giving us the option to turn off rev matching

It's a big deal to me.

One box checked!!

[italiabrain]

Originally Posted by TheStanman

Pro-tip: you can leave your 7-speed in 6th gear while cruising if you prefer.

I'd rather them spend the R&D on rating the transmission for the competition package and/or making it compatible with AWD. 6th Gear could independently be made taller without adding another cog. The torque band on these isn't terrible.

Assuming it has the same torque band as the X3M I would prefer they target 80mph at 2600RPM to be at the very bottom of the torque plateau for a good cruising speed.

That being said, if "all of the above" was an option, I'd be happy to take it. I just don't see them developing a whole new setup.

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by erictrainer

Because cruising down the highway in 6th at 80mph and 3kish rpm is no fun. In this regard the DCT is much better.

That would be the only reason, at least in my book.

If that's how you feel, you probably don't belong in a manual. That's a very very minor inconvenience for a 6MT that we all live with.

[Scorp!on]

Originally Posted by italiabrain

I'd rather them spend the R&D on rating the transmission for the competition package and/or making it compatible with AWD. 6th Gear could independently be made taller without adding another cog. The torque band on these isn't terrible.

Assuming it has the same torque band as the X3M I would prefer they target 80mph at 2600RPM to be at the very bottom of the torque plateau for a good cruising speed.

That being said, if "all of the above" was an option, I'd be happy to take it. I just don't see them developing a whole new setup.

There is only one reason the MT has less HP (even though they tell because of reliability)

It's to save people's a**es because a lot will drive like full retard. More HP and more NM equals more crashes. Ask Alfa why they dismissed the MT. It's not because they sold only a few of them, but the ones they sold were all smashed into trees.

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by Lucky1

Just so everyone is on the same page...a manual transmission's purpose these days is for FUN right? Not utility. And downshifting is FUN isn't it? Just laying that out there. I hate cars that are point and squirt like EV's. Also these cars are so much fun if you're going to pass someone you want to aggressively downshift to 4th or 3rd and let her rip EVERY time c'mon lol :

Now here's the thing. I think seis-speed and others might be looking at the 7MT the wrong way. In the Porsche 991 the 7th gear is for cruising at lowest rpms for maximum fuel economy; absolutely in that car if you are below 80mph it will be like driving a Geo Metro if you mash the pedal in 7th for a pass at less than 80mph. You cannot achieve maximum speed in top gear in that box; due to gearing it has to be in 6th for maximum warp. Now if you are on the Autobahn way above 80mph you can ABSOLUTELY pass in 7th because the rpms will be higher in the torque curve. In fact in regular GT life if you are barreling down at 80mph on a 70mph you will naturally "pass" people anyway due to speed.

But this is why at sub 80mph if you're not on cruise control below those speeds and need frequent passing you LEAVE it in 6th or even 5th in the case of 67mph or lower and then the engine is turning at 3k or so and you have instant power at your foot and you are no worse off than if you only had a 6MT that turns at 3k on highway anyway.

Based on all that why the obsession with being in top gear ALL the time? I learn to drive around it and its just as utilitarian, possibly more AND its more fun which is why I bought the manual.

Where I hear people say the 7MT went wrong is "feel" due to "too many gates" or complexity or feel or whatever but I have a 128i and Z4MR with 6 speed gearboxes and my 7MT in the Porsche is definitely my favourite of the three. Track cars like the GT3 still keep a six speed for the track but for real world GT Life 7MT isn't bad IMO.

Given your stable of cars I definitely appreciate your perspective. I have never driven a 7MT but have owned 7 cars, 6 of them manual. I got my CS in DCT because when my lease was up the F80 was out of production and every manual in the USA was already sold. I did a 2 year lease on the CS because the G80 mules were being aggressively tested and i was NOT committing to a 3 year lease on a DCT. I have been horribly bored since the 2nd week I had the car to be honest.

[Remonster]

Originally Posted by Lucky1

Just so everyone is on the same page...a manual transmission's purpose these days is for FUN right? Not utility. And downshifting is FUN isn't it? Just laying that out there. I hate cars that are point and squirt like EV's. Also these cars are so much fun if you're going to pass someone you want to aggressively downshift to 4th or 3rd and let her rip EVERY time c'mon lol :

Now here's the thing. I think seis-speed and others might be looking at the 7MT the wrong way. In the Porsche 991 the 7th gear is for cruising at lowest rpms for maximum fuel economy; absolutely in that car if you are below 80mph it will be like driving a Geo Metro if you mash the pedal in 7th for a pass at less than 80mph. You cannot achieve maximum speed in top gear in that box; due to gearing it has to be in 6th for maximum warp. Now if you are on the Autobahn way above 80mph you can ABSOLUTELY pass in 7th because the rpms will be higher in the torque curve. In fact in regular GT life if you are barreling down at 80mph on a 70mph you will naturally "pass" people anyway due to speed.

But this is why at sub 80mph if you're not on cruise control below those speeds and need frequent passing you LEAVE it in 6th or even 5th in the case of 67mph or lower and then the engine is turning at 3k or so and you have instant power at your foot and you are no worse off than if you only had a 6MT that turns at 3k on highway anyway.

Based on all that why the obsession with being in top gear ALL the time? I learn to drive around it and its just as utilitarian, possibly more AND its more fun which is why I bought the manual.

Where I hear people say the 7MT went wrong is "feel" due to "too many gates" or complexity or feel or whatever but I have a 128i and Z4MR with 6 speed gearboxes and my 7MT in the Porsche is definitely my favourite of the three. Track cars like the GT3 still keep a six speed for the track but for real world GT Life 7MT isn't bad IMO.

I can't say for sure how much of this is because of the 7th gear ratio's effect on transmission internals but my dad's 991.2 7MT shift feel is much worse than Porsche's own current 6MTs (both the 981/982 gearbox and of course the incredible 911R/991.2 GT3 one) and my F80 M3. Even ignoring the 7th ratio, the way the shifting feels between the first 6 is very different between the Porsche transmissions so I guess I am assuming that would be a necessary part of a 7MT transmission. I may be wrong.

Porsches shift by cables so maybe a 7 speed BMW gearbox could feel just as nice as the current F80 one since it would still use a shift rod going right into the transmission.

[frankiebones]

From the horse's mouth.

[M2Cmtl]

People saying that adding a 7th gear would drastically change mpgs are full of baloney. If the engine noise bothers you on the highway, just turn off ASD.

[erictrainer]

Originally Posted by frankiebones

If that's how you feel, you probably don't belong in a manual. That's a very very minor inconvenience for a 6MT that we all live with.

For the record I was the biggest MT fanboy ever. My E90 and my F80 were both manuals and I loved them. But after I owned an F80 with the DCT I realized the car is better suited for it. For example I was looking to buy an E92 and I would never buy that car with the DCT, everything happens so much slower and the torque is not constantly overwhelming the chassis. That car is better suited to an MT (even with that MT being objectively worst than the F8X).

Do I miss the control that comes with the MT, of course, is it more fun to row your own gears, no doubt. But again I truly believe the DCT is the better transmission for the F8X. Even from a track perspective I don't think I lost any noticeable amount of time if any by switching to DCT, but at the same time I don't think I lost any fun factor either.

As always this comes down to personal taste and what suits your needs better.

[Scorp!on]

Originally Posted by erictrainer

For the record I was the biggest MT fanboy ever. My E90 and my F80 were both manuals and I loved them. But after I owned an F80 with the DCT I realized the car is better suited for it. For example I was looking to buy an E92 and I would never buy that car with the DCT, everything happens so much slower and the torque is not constantly overwhelming the chassis. That car is better suited to an MT (even with that MT being objectively worst than the F8X).

Do I miss the control that comes with the MT, of course, is it more fun to row your own gears, no doubt. But again I truly believe the DCT is the better transmission for the F8X. Even from a track perspective I don't think I lost any noticeable amount of time if any by switching to DCT, but at the same time I don't think I lost any fun factor either.

As always this comes down to personal taste and what suits your needs better.

I think everyone knows that the DCT is the better transmission, would be strange when not.
The MT has nothing to to with how quick you are, it's about the driving experience. That's all.
And here, as you say, it all comes down to personal taste.
You want a damn quick car where you can also cruise with practically brain off in traffic? --> DCT (well, new ZF)
You have loads of fun at changing gears by yourself en pressing the clutch but also can live with the annoying part in traffic? --> MT

I go for MT, finally again

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by erictrainer

For the record I was the biggest MT fanboy ever. My E90 and my F80 were both manuals and I loved them. But after I owned an F80 with the DCT I realized the car is better suited for it. For example I was looking to buy an E92 and I would never buy that car with the DCT, everything happens so much slower and the torque is not constantly overwhelming the chassis. That car is better suited to an MT (even with that MT being objectively worst than the F8X).

Do I miss the control that comes with the MT, of course, is it more fun to row your own gears, no doubt. But again I truly believe the DCT is the better transmission for the F8X. Even from a track perspective I don't think I lost any noticeable amount of time if any by switching to DCT, but at the same time I don't think I lost any fun factor either.

As always this comes down to personal taste and what suits your needs better.

Your story is fairly common. A substantial minority of us went to DCT and never went back. For me, it was the exact opposite.

I had intended on ordering a 2nd F80 in an individual color and 6MT after my 1st F80 lease was up. Well, they stopped production about 5 months earlier than planned because of new EU emissions laws.

There were exactly 0.00 6MT F80's for sale in the US in May, 2019. My 1st F80 had 66k miles in 36 months and buying it out would have been akin to signing my own financial death warrant.

So....I got a CS. I wanted to hate it, but it drove so well during the test drive. The thing handled NIGHT AND DAY better than the ZCP (and infinitely better than my base F80).

After 2 weeks, I got really bored. After 2 months I started to hate the f**king thing. Long story short (lol), no automatic transmission is for me, no matter how "special" the car is.

Appreciate your feedback, don't disagree the car is "better" with DCT, but I could care less about better. I care about engagement. I track my car 4 or 5 times a year and I will certainly miss the DCT there.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Scorp!on

I think everyone knows that the DCT is the better transmission, would be strange when not.
The MT has nothing to to with how quick you are, it's about the driving experience. That's all.
And here, as you say, it all comes down to personal taste.
You want a damn quick car where you can also cruise with practically brain off in traffic? --> DCT (well, new ZF)
You have loads of fun at changing gears by yourself en pressing the clutch but also can live with the annoying part in traffic? --> MT

I go for MT, finally again

The MT is fun. I've been a diehard MT guy ever since I began driving. I recently purchased a black 2021 Toyota Corolla SE with a manual transmission for commuting; it replaced my auto 2003 Mercedes C-Class with 377,000 miles on it. That Toyota, while underpowered, is a great commuter and the MT makes it more engaging.

[Lucky1]

Originally Posted by Remonster

I can't say for sure how much of this is because of the 7th gear ratio's effect on transmission internals but my dad's 991.2 7MT shift feel is much worse than Porsche's own current 6MTs (both the 981/982 gearbox and of course the incredible 911R/991.2 GT3 one) and my F80 M3. Even ignoring the 7th ratio, the way the shifting feels between the first 6 is very different between the Porsche transmissions so I guess I am assuming that would be a necessary part of a 7MT transmission. I may be wrong.

Porsches shift by cables so maybe a 7 speed BMW gearbox could feel just as nice as the current F80 one since it would still use a shift rod going right into the transmission.

Never driven an F80 manual gearbox but I have driven a 128i, Z4MR, 340xi, M2 and M240i in stick and to be frank this must be a matter of opinion thing then on what people are looking for because the newest BMW's all felt like rubber. Do they stiffen up over time?

Maybe we are all seeking different things. I changed the gear oil fluid in my 128i and it became video gamey and less mechanical than before. While smoother and easier to shift it felt like plastic. Now the newer boxes are even worse that way and feel like rubber. Feels like driving a wet noodle. Combine with vague clutch feel and it just ends up numb to me like the steering. Fun fact; drove the jellybean Honda Civic in a manual and the shifter and clutch are precisely that...jelly. HATED it.

I guess its just me but I prefer the rifle bolt, resistance based mechanical feel of boxes of yore and I'm far from a traditionalist/luddite having not yet become old enough to really be one. I can rip through the gears in the Porsche 991 FAST and with confidence despite it being much more resistance, mechanical feely than other boxes. ALSO I don't get the gate precision thing because I have utter confidence in it at all times even more so than the BMW's and even miss fewer gears. The fact that there needs a bit of effort to get in the gear reminds me I'm commanding a MACHINE and not a digital mobile app.

Engineering progress and enjoyment/feel don't seem to coincide with me.

I would never, ever trade the feel of my Z4MR or Porsche 991.1 gearboxes for any post E90 era BMW box that I've driven. Hope the F80 M3/4 is an exception but it sounds like we're all chasing different things here. Truly confused as to the disconnect as to experience vs preference when I hear from other manual drivers but hey; same time I'm glad, for obvious reasons, that all cars don't just drive the same way.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Lucky1

Never driven an F80 manual gearbox but I have driven a 128i, Z4MR, 340xi, M2 and M240i in stick and to be frank this must be a matter of opinion thing then on what people are looking for because the newest BMW's all felt like rubber. Do they stiffen up over time?

Maybe we are all seeking different things. I changed the gear oil fluid in my 128i and it became video gamey and less mechanical than before. While smoother and easier to shift it felt like plastic. Now the newer boxes are even worse that way and feel like rubber. Feels like driving a wet noodle. Combine with vague clutch feel and it just ends up numb to me like the steering. Fun fact; drove the jellybean Honda Civic in a manual and the shifter and clutch are precisely that...jelly. HATED it.

I guess its just me but I prefer the rifle bolt, resistance based mechanical feel of boxes of yore and I'm far from a traditionalist/luddite having not yet become old enough to really be one. I can rip through the gears in the Porsche 991 FAST and with confidence despite it being much more resistance, mechanical feely than other boxes. ALSO I don't get the gate precision thing because I have utter confidence in it at all times even more so than the BMW's and even miss fewer gears. The fact that there needs a bit of effort to get in the gear reminds me I'm commanding a MACHINE and not a digital mobile app.

Engineering progress and enjoyment/feel don't seem to coincide with me.

I would never, ever trade the feel of my Z4MR or Porsche 991.1 gearboxes for any post E90 era BMW box that I've driven. Hope the F80 M3/4 is an exception but it sounds like we're all chasing different things here. Truly confused as to the disconnect as to experience vs preference when I hear from other manual drivers but hey; same time I'm glad, for obvious reasons, that all cars don't just drive the same way.

Feel is subjective. While I don't doubt that Porsche has a great gearbox, I don't think BMW MT's are bad. Growing up people raved about the Honda S2K gearbox, but I personally hated it. It just goes to show that preference is personal.

[brianeck]

Originally Posted by M2Cmtl

People saying that adding a 7th gear would drastically change mpgs are full of baloney. If the engine noise bothers you on the highway, just turn off ASD.

To be fair, in my 2015 you didn't have the option to "just turn off ASD" without ripping off panels in the trunk of the car and disconnecting a fuse.

There is really no reason to think that 2,000 RPMs on smooth consistent highway road is not going to provide significantly better MPG than 3,000 RPMs under the same conditions.

One of my biggest gripes in the F80 was just how close 5th and 6th gear really were. Once I had my JB4 there was no purpose to 5th gear in real world driving scenarios because 6th did have enough passing power etc. . .

I don't understand how people can sit here and bash people asking for a 7th gear or a larger 6th gear because "its just fine the way it is." Innovation generally begins with a call for it. . . Not that we'll get to see a shiny new manual box in a BMW anytime soon.

If you search the F80 forums, I think one of the most common complaints is the gearing. 1st gear is very often described as too short given the modicum of torque in the vehicle (see: no traction) and 6th gear isn't long enough (see "why isn't there a 7th gear or why am I at 3,000 RPMS on the highway when my Jeep Wrangler is only at 2,500).

I'm glad they gave us a manual box too, but that certainly doesn't mean that the box they revisited was "perfect" in any way shape or form.

I'd be all for a longer 6th or a 7th "overdrive only" gear and I really don't see a downside to it despite the naysaying.