[swagon]

Originally Posted by frankiebones

Indeed if it is the same transmission (98% sure it is) it is a weak argument from BMW.

On the forums everyone who owned a M/T F10 M5 talked about how fun the extra dimension was even trough the car was better performing with a DCT.

Originally Posted by frankiebones

Then why not give us the full monty? Why lie? The simplest explanation is usually the correct one, according to Occam's razor, and in this case the simplest explanation is they are telling the truth. We don't know the details or specs on the 6MT they used on the G80 yet.

If it's about money, they could have made the 8AT more expensive and captured the revenue.

G8x have a Getrag/Magna GS6-45BZ, shared with F8x and E/F-gen N55 cars. Unsure how this BMW ETK is correct, but it is the VIN of a 6MT car.

F1x M5/M6 had the -53BZ variant, also seen in N54 cars. 550i clutch is a common upgrade on N54s.

Note these main units have also different four-letter suffixes and there are multiple part numbers even for one car.

lemetier can I summon you and ask you to shed some light on this cause I remember you saying G8x has the new modular Magna 6MTI550 (7MT version found in Bronco, "MT88"). On the surface, F8x and G8x units look the same to me. And MTI550 is rated to 7,000 rpm only.

[trey100]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I believe it is about compromise: offer a manual at the least possible cost. And it is way cheaper to tune the ECU for lower the power/torque output than it is to develop a beefier transmission.

I don't disagree that it's a compromise and I'll take the compromise but the point still remains - If BMW cared for manuals in their cars they'd improve the current unit or go to a vendor that has one. I'm sure the ZF isn't free, nor many other components. The transmission I imagine should rank pretty high in priorities for an M car. The take rate on M3s has always been high in the US and it's their 2nd strongest market for BMW and #1 for M cars. Those are numbers that make the choice to compromise suspect. Making it less available allows the self-fulfilling prophecy to happen.

I see this in business all the time. It's a back door way to make things happen and try to come out clean.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by trey100

I don't disagree that it's a compromise and I'll take the compromise but the point still remains - If BMW cared for manuals in their cars they'd improve the current unit or go to a vendor that has one. I'm sure the ZF isn't free, nor many other components. The transmission I imagine should rank pretty high in priorities for an M car. The take rate on M3s has always been high in the US and it's their 2nd strongest market for BMW and #1 for M cars. Those are numbers that make the choice to compromise suspect. Making it less available allows the self-fulfilling prophecy to happen.

I see this in business all the time. It's a back door way to make things happen and try to come out clean.

They care enough to invest commensurately to cater to ~15% of the market (judging by F80 6MT sales), but not for a penny more .

[xlover]

Originally Posted by trey100

I don't disagree that it's a compromise and I'll take the compromise but the point still remains - If BMW cared for manuals in their cars they'd improve the current unit or go to a vendor that has one. I'm sure the ZF isn't free, nor many other components. The transmission I imagine should rank pretty high in priorities for an M car. The take rate on M3s has always been high in the US and it's their 2nd strongest market for BMW and #1 for M cars. Those are numbers that make the choice to compromise suspect. Making it less available allows the self-fulfilling prophecy to happen.

I see this in business all the time. It's a back door way to make things happen and try to come out clean.

For that to be true you also have to believe the take rate for the manual would be higher if it had received more investment. I can't see any way that is true. The manual enthusiasts are going to buy it either way.

Some may be somewhat disappointed (and complain on message boards) they don't get the same power rating as the auto but if one loves 3 pedals I can't see trading over to auto just for a few more HP and tq.

[trey100]

Originally Posted by xlover

For that to be true you also have to believe the take rate for the manual would be higher if it had received more investment. I can't see any way that is true. The manual enthusiasts are going to buy it either way.

Some may be somewhat disappointed (and complain on message boards) they don't get the same power rating as the auto but if one loves 3 pedals I can't see trading over to auto just for a few more HP and tq.

Not sure why they must see an increase in take rate in order to invest in a transmission choice for an M car. It sells well especially in their best M market (50%) and second it's a big differentiator which has a value. Why risk losing that 50% of M buyers in the US. Christ - if GM can do it, BMW surely can.

By the way, keep in mind that they keep designing and engineering a moonroof for the M3 and how few people take that?

[xlover]

Originally Posted by trey100

Not sure why they must see an increase in take rate in order to invest in a transmission choice for an M car. It sells well especially in their best M market (50%) and second it's a big differentiator which has a value. Why risk losing that 50% of M buyers in the US. Christ - if GM can do it, BMW surely can.

By the way, keep in mind that they keep designing and engineering a moonroof for the M3 and how few people take that?

The lack of the additional investment will have no effect on manual units sold. As I noted, those customers who were going to get a manual will do it anyway. Manual buyers are not going to defect to the automatic just because the auto has a few more hp and tq. But if making a statement that one believes lack of investment will hurt manual take then it must also be true that increasing investment would increase manual take which we know isn't true.

The sunroof is a perfect example, though it doesn't support your point, in fact the opposite. The sunroof is just a direct transplant from the series car it has no extra investment. bmw doesn't offer a sunroof in the carbon fiber roof because any customer that really wants a sunroof isn't going to pass on the sunroof because they have to settle for the steel roof.

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by xlover

The lack of the additional investment will have no effect on manual units sold. As I noted, those customers who were going to get a manual will do it anyway. Manual buyers are not going to defect to the automatic just because the auto has a few more hp and tq. But if making a statement that one believes lack of investment will hurt manual take then it must also be true that increasing investment would increase manual take which we know isn't true.

The sunroof is a perfect example, though it doesn't support your point, in fact the opposite. The sunroof is just a direct transplant from the series car it has no extra investment. bmw doesn't offer a sunroof in the carbon fiber roof because any customer that really wants a sunroof isn't going to pass on the sunroof because have to settle for the steel roof.

You win this thread. I make a motion to close it immediately lol.

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by trey100

Not sure why they must see an increase in take rate in order to invest in a transmission choice for an M car. It sells well especially in their best M market (50%) and second it's a big differentiator which has a value. Why risk losing that 50% of M buyers in the US. Christ - if GM can do it, BMW surely can.

By the way, keep in mind that they keep designing and engineering a moonroof for the M3 and how few people take that?

If it wasn't for your profile I would never think you were a manual driver with this argument. I would get a G80 in manual if it was a 425hp S55 engine all over again lol.

[heavyD^2]

Maybe it's me but after years of driving manual equipped Mazda, Honda, Dodge, Mitsubishi, Subaru, Ford, VAG, etc I found the 6 speed in the M2 was really good. If Porsche is your standard for manual transmissions then you are probably going to be disappointed with everything else.

[trey100]

Originally Posted by frankiebones

If it wasn't for your profile I would never think you were a manual driver with this argument. I would get a G80 in manual if it was a 425hp S55 engine all over again lol.

Well we shall see if the take rate for manual is as high in the G80 as in the F80. Let's revisit this once we have the numbers in a couple of years.

I'd still choose the RWD manual but between not being available in the Comp and AWD, I predict less manuals sold on the G80.

[seis-speed]

Originally Posted by trey100

Well we shall see if the take rate for manual is as high in the G80 as in the F80. Let's revisit this once we have the numbers in a couple of years.

I'd still choose the RWD manual but between not being available in the Comp and AWD, I predict less manuals sold on the G80.

The dealers do not have many Base allocations.

It seems, BMW is allocating to what they think the take rate will be. Unless this system changes - there is not going to be a manual surplus.

[kaiv]

Originally Posted by kaiv

I imagine BMW didn't want to spend the $ necessary to come up with a new/upgraded clutch for the more powerful i6 (especially since they probably don't foresee selling many). Instead it's probably getting the same/similar hardware that's on the F80 hence the identical torque rating.

Called it @2:13 , same clutch as f8x

[Remonster]

Originally Posted by xlover

For that to be true you also have to believe the take rate for the manual would be higher if it had received more investment. I can't see any way that is true. The manual enthusiasts are going to buy it either way.

Some may be somewhat disappointed (and complain on message boards) they don't get the same power rating as the auto but if one loves 3 pedals I can't see trading over to auto just for a few more HP and tq.

I'd never bother owning a turbocharged car with a stock tune anyways so the lower stock horsepower rating is a non-issue. My car would be tuned as soon as it's possible to do so and, in fact, the huge tuning potential of the S58 is one of the main reasons I'm even considering a G80 M3 in the first place. I know some people value their warranty too much to want to tune their cars or may not want to for other reasons but of all the M3 owners I know, most of the manual owners are also the ones who tune and modify their cars anyways.

[Ilyam5]

Low torque numbers are a concern especially since it is available at higher rpm vs f80 m3. If you drive x3m you really feel the lack of torque down low and its with torque converter in auto.
Tuning is a tough excuse. Based on this thread you are just passing the cost of gear box upgrade and clutch upgrade to the customer.
If the tune can even be done on the locked ecus- not only you are going to loose warranty - you are going to burn clutches and trans until you upgrade it 9 if upgrade is even available)

[GeorgePapamitrou]

The ZF 8 spd is amazing...we will love it.

[Remonster]

Originally Posted by Ilyam5

Low torque numbers are a concern especially since it is available at higher rpm vs f80 m3. If you drive x3m you really feel the lack of torque down low and its with torque converter in auto.
Tuning is a tough excuse. Based on this thread you are just passing the cost of gear box upgrade and clutch upgrade to the customer.
If the tune can even be done on the locked ecus- not only you are going to loose warranty - you are going to burn clutches and trans until you upgrade it 9 if upgrade is even available)

I daily drove my F80 M3 6MT with over 500ft-lbs of torque with stock clutch and stock transmission plus stickier tires and never once experienced clutch slippage or any other issues. I did plenty of launches and won plenty of stoplight grand prix so I wasn't babying the car at all.

S58 makes huge power with a tune and especially with a handful of other upgrades so at some point you'll need a stronger clutch but don't doubt the durability and strength of the stock parts. F80 has proven the 6MT setup can take a lot of abuse.

[Manualboi]

*AHEM*

Autotragic transmissions have no soul.

[Rockshaker]

You drive manuals & ride in automatics. You might as well take the bus.

[Salty B.]

Originally Posted by Rockshaker

You drive manuals & ride in automatics. You might as well take the bus.

I bought a t-shirt that has a generic 5-speed pattern and “real cars don’t shift themselves.” It’s on Amazon somewhere.

I’m in a rental Subaru Legacy this week and the auto-nannies and alarms and all that bullshit make me never want to buy a new car again... I hope the G8x does NOT come with lane departure warning, auto-braking, driver alert warning, auto stop/start, and if it does that it can all be permanently disabled. This stupid Subie makes you turn them all off every time you start the car. Ugh. All this nonsense makes you a WORSE driver.

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by swagon

G8x have a Getrag/Magna GS6-45BZ, shared with F8x and E/F-gen N55 cars. Unsure how this BMW ETK is correct, but it is the VIN of a 6MT car.

F1x M5/M6 had the -53BZ variant, also seen in N54 cars. 550i clutch is a common upgrade on N54s.

Note these main units have also different four-letter suffixes and there are multiple part numbers even for one car.

lemetier can I summon you and ask you to shed some light on this cause I remember you saying G8x has the new modular Magna 6MTI550 (7MT version found in Bronco, "MT88"). On the surface, F8x and G8x units look the same to me. And MTI550 is rated to 7,000 rpm only.

BMW changed the internal trans designations a few years ago.

6MTI550 is Magna's designation for the family (6 Speed Manual Trans Inline Torque Input at rated speed). Lower speed = higher torque, higher speed = lower torque.

[JK479]

Originally Posted by brianeck

Am I missing something, or has BMW very craftilly dealt the final blow to the manual that they've inevitably wanted to for some time?

For years we have heard about how the marketing and sales projections point to low use of manuals before they are actually ever sold, meaning that cars shouldn't ever be offered in this format in the first place.

Now we have an enthusiasts car, where things like performance, peak power, and acceleration really do matter. We have a platform from the F80 year where people openly said they would take a DCT over a 6MT because it was 2/10ths faster in the quarter mile. .

From here, with the G80 model lineup, BMW decides to launch the 6MT m3 once again, but only with significantly less power than the competition model, and not in the AWD variant.

It's inconceivable to think that 6MT sales won't be affected by people who want the fastest, most powerful version of the car, or people like me who need a daily that can comfortably handle rough winter commutes (currently in a b8.5 s4 6mt).

I don't see any reason for launching a manual version of this car in a crippled, less exciting format other than to forcibly generate market data that fraudulently shows that people prefer the automatic transmission due to take rates. In my humble opinion, this car is the culmination of everything the auto industry has been pushing the market towards for the last 10 years. . . .

When you launch a dumbed down version of an "enthusiasts" car for the enthusiasts, you all but force them to take the car you prefer that they buy in the first place.

It's like a shitty transparent psychological experiment.

Now inevitably the aftermarket will help with leveling the playing field on the crippled output of the 6mt. . . . While that may be enough for me, I do not think it will be enough for most potential 6mt buyers. I also really want an M-AWD car! There are effectively no performance oriented awd manual 4wd cars offered anymore. Every time a used b8.5 5mt goes on the market it sells within a day, so I have a really hard time believing that nobody else wants this type of vehicle.

With the above stated - I haven't read enough yet to understand how exactly the competition delivers it's additional power. . . If it's just a tune or something then so be it. If it's more, then the 6mt is still considerably more hindered for after market modding as well.

From what I can tell, this competition package is absurdly cheap. . . <$3000. That's less than the delta to get a DCT car in the F80 variant. It's a no brainer for all but the most loyal diehard 6mt club, who live in a winter less region or who can afford a winter beater/daily or a garage queen.

Am I missing something, or has BMW really stabbed the 6MT in the back with a poisoned dagger right in front of our eyes while pretending to cater to our desires?

Agree. And not offering awd and manual offends us too!